[Torquedo]

The following comments hold my perspective, no offence to Manza or Etios owners:

Basically, I think whenever you go out to buy a vehicle, it is the ENGINE and I repeat only the Engine that you should be squarely aiming at to pay for.

All the other add ons are mere marketing gimmicks and over the years we have been fed with them and now have added on to our MUST in the car list.

Gautam -

Looking at your initial post, the pros that you have mentioned about Manza are mere soothing after effects in a mechanical device, I'll take up each individually:

1) Bluetooth - Subjective discussion, how many times and how long you are over the call while driving? Something if missing in your can, I think you can live with it.

2) OEM ICE - I spent 45K on my ICE (JVC + 2 JBL Amps + Bass Tube + Infinity Component system blah blah), sheer wastage of money on my part. I have made one would not like others to repeat. An OK ICE (10-12K)should be ideal.

3) NVH and Comfort - I test drove an Etios and the suspensions are amazing simply amazing, Toyota has done a fantastic job for the Indian driving conditions.

4) Interiors - Manza quality is pathetic, run your hand over the centre of the steering wheel, it might cut your fingers !!. We buyers are not looking at buying a house here, Etios almost offers the same amount of space, the only thing is that the Manza looks bigger.

My experience with a colleagues Manza, which I often drive, the issues:

1) After close to 10K the power windows have given way.
2) Wheel cover has gone for a spin, nowhere to find.
3) Shifting gears sucks, you have to put in an effort to slot the gears.
4) Clutch seems to be falling apart.
5) Air conditioner - when blown on full speed it howls and cries like an infant but I don't quiet get to know where the air is, the vents might be choked, leave aside cooling.

Again coming back to your post, the Etios does surely feel like a turbocharged diesel, thanks to the peak torque coming in at 3000 RPM.

Regarding cons for the Etios - they are well known, additionally the center mounted console is not to my liking.

Again before I post this reply, It is the engine that you should be squarely aiming at, and for me hands down, the Etios is better engineered car.

Fellow BHPians, I do not know why we are comparing the Quadrajet with Etios here, petrol and diesels should not be compared, and if the comparison here has to be between the Etios and Manza, it has to be PETROL.

[julupani]

@Torquedo

I dont think many, other than may be people who would like to make their cars into street/track racers, would share the view that the value is only there in the engine. I sure dont.

Also, would like to add that this is not so much a comparison between an Etios and a Manza, but more like what car gautam should go for. Thus some members may have suggested a Manza diesel.

As far as the quality of the Manza goes, surprisingly( for me at least) going by this thread, there seem to be more positive reviews about the Manza and the Tata service than negative ones. And the few negative ones that exist are not exactly out of direct personal experience, but largely based on a pessimism about Tata quality and service.

The Tata quality pessimism, I definitely share, but I have seen from experience of Tata service, they can be very good when they really care. And from personal experience the Tata service guys care about their higher end customers way more than about the standard Indica/Indigo/Sumo customers.

[RoadTiger]

The Etios' engine and dynamics are clearly superior to Manza's (Safire engine) - whether it is driveability in city, fun-to-drive quotient, refinement, mileage, the works. However, it is quite noisy. Handling is again better than Manza's - not sure about ride quality - I didnt find Etios' ride quality to be better than Manza's at high speeds. Also, I am absolutely NOT a fan of Etios interiors where the Manza scores much higher marks -despite fit and finish being an issue.

My vote goes for the Etios, if want an absolute no-hassles car with a nice engine (and fuel efficient too!). Hopefully, you can do something to spruce up the interiors at an extra cost.

If you're the kind who doesnt mind the risk of a few extra visits to the service centre and cares for the feel-good factor in a car, its the Manza (though the diesel if by far a much better buy than the petrol)

[Palio_2005]

In case you want to play it safe go for Etios without a second thought. Toyota can never go wrong after having sold millions of cars world wide. They are THE most reliable cars on the roads.

Tata is just maturing as a car manufacturer and they have to throw in the freebies, else no one would even consider their cars (sad but true).

I had an Indica V2 for 5 years and clocked about 80K. Not once did I face a problem (some small niggles aside) in those 5 years of ownership and I was pretty happy about the service as well.

[Bluengel180]

Originally Posted by Torquedo

4) Interiors - Manza quality is pathetic, run your hand over the centre of the steering wheel, it might cut your fingers !!.

Now this is pure over-the-top exaggeration.SHEESH!

and look at the elan review.the interios are better than most of its competition

[amit1234singla]

Gautam - I am using Manza QJD for last 13.5 months and 28k km's. I won't talk about my experience here since that's with respect to QJD only. I have not driven petrol Manza or Etios. So on a generic note, what I can suggest you is that if you're thinking about only petrol, please go for Etios not Manza. For petrol's, nothing comes close to the reliability, refinement and FE of Japs or Koreans. Though your running is not much, still I think there is going to be a difference of atleast 25% in FE of Etios vs petrol Manza. Just see the kerb weight of both. Also, I don't think any models of Indian car manufacturers have been even moderately successful in petrol. Resale is very bad as well.

As others suggested, going for a pre-owned good civic or corolla is also a much better value proposition. You can expect a ~2-3 year old, ~20-25k driven car at about the same price. I would have strongly considered this last year had I been open to a petrol car.

It would be a different story altogether if you were open to look at diesels. These are just my views, no offence meant to any fellow petrolhead!

[Torquedo]

Julupani -

No offenses here, but I guess you have taken my words literally, Street or Race cars are a different league, what I meant by stating engine, was, the top priority should be engine and others are mere secondary.

Hope that clears.

Originally Posted by julupani

@Torquedo

I dont think many, other than may be people who would like to make their cars into street/track racers, would share the view that the value is only there in the engine. I sure dont.

Also, would like to add that this is not so much a comparison between an Etios and a Manza, but more like what car gautam should go for. Thus some members may have suggested a Manza diesel.

As far as the quality of the Manza goes, surprisingly( for me at least) going by this thread, there seem to be more positive reviews about the Manza and the Tata service than negative ones. And the few negative ones that exist are not exactly out of direct personal experience, but largely based on a pessimism about Tata quality and service.

The Tata quality pessimism, I definitely share, but I have seen from experience of Tata service, they can be very good when they really care. And from personal experience the Tata service guys care about their higher end customers way more than about the standard Indica/Indigo/Sumo customers.

[drsk]

Gautam,

One more free opinion

Considering the current price difference between Petrol and Diesel, for every 1000kms you run you will save approximately about Rs. 2800/- (with certain assumptions). So, diesel looks like a better choice considering your pocket.

I am currently using (well, its with my parent now) Indica (petrol) for the past 4.5 yrs and clocked about 38k kms. No major worries so far. The Tata A$$ are not great, but certainly not bad.

Talking of petrol engines, my car has Tata's engine and its silent inside the car even though it is bit coarse outside (especially in the mornings).

My aunt is using the Manza (diesel) for nearly a year and so far they are happy with it.

As few have already suggested, if you are more interested in "Fun to drive" aspect, then Manza will not satisfy. But, what manza can do is give you more value for the money you put in it, it will fulfill the duties of a "family car" (you can seat 4 adults in the back seat in relatively better comfort than more other cars).


Disclaimer - I have not driven the Etios.

[PAVAN KADAM]

Today Arun1100 called me and confirmed the news of booking a Sedan.

I took an early break from office and met him.

Since this thread was running we decided to first go to a Toyota Showroom for TD'ing the Etios.

We saw the car, inside out, we went for a short drive....................


By lunch break we drove to the nearest TATA showroom to check out the Manza Elan.

Fantastic........

The car was such a fresh breath of air. The showroom guys were very very courteous.

TD was fantastic, the car responded the way we wanted to, The Etios was tad bad.

The Manza had so much of freshness in its design and plastic feel. Really nice, which we could not find in the Etios.

ETIOS likes :

1) Toyota brand image


ETIOS Dislikes :

1) Horrible exterior design
2) Interior design is not any better
3) Engine NVH levels are above tolerable limits
4) No gizmos,
5) Nothing to talk about gadgets
6) Plane jane interiors
7) Hard and cheap plastics
8) Dashboard looks like, as if they did not have funds to design one.
9) Stiff suspension
10) Power steering not giving a very inspiring feel
11) Nothing to talk about the FE
12) looks out and out a logan replacement in the taxi segment.
13) low service network in the city.


Manza Likes:

1) Well built
2) Great Space and comfort.
3) Wonderful and responsive Quadrajet engine
4) Gearing well slotted
5) Seating position height adjustable a welcome design
6) Blue and me HU is a great fitment
7) Paint finish is Supreme
8) Dashboard looks well put to gether
9) Interior plastic quality much much better and unlike TATA.
10) Great feel Upholstery
11) Wonderful FE.
12) Nice fit and finish
13) HUGE boot space,with the widest Hauling area. unlike any car in the segment.
14) Price to beat, and is a real VFM preposition
15) Many Service centres in the city
16) Soft and well settled suspension.

Manza dislikes :

I did not find any, for the kind of pricing.

Did not like the Etios a bit (My personal opinion, not to be taken offensively and as a biased TD) so never took pictures.

[nukeblitz]

I own only a vista and can't comment about the cars themselves but here's my 2 paise about tata service.

IMO, it all depends on which service station you choose.

Here's my experience with 3 different service stations.

1. URS KAR, mysore-
I have been VERY happy with the service here. They haven't always been on time but they have always gone out of their way to be approachable, fair and to make me comfy in general. I've gotten things replaced under warranty without any protests even though my service history isn't spotless. Some things that are obviously my damage too! Definitely made of feel special. Their service is good too and they listen to feedback!

2. Malik motors, hyd-
Their prices seemed a little higher than what i expected and the service advisor didn't communicate very well. In general i felt a little ignored until i decided to leave and the manager took special interest in my case. That was good and i appreciated it even though i didn't end up getting my car serviced there. So, I can't talk much about the service there but they did seem packed beyond their capacity.

3. Concorde motors, hyd-
I've had horrible experiences with them. Mostly with their apparent inability to fix anything. First with my dad's old indica. And last year when i gave my car there for repairs after an accident. It so happened that i wasn't able to keep track of my car during that time and they gave it back to my dad. It wasn't until i came back that i realized that the turbo wasn't working. After some useless arguing, i got the car back to mysore and got it fixed at urs kar without any confusion. However, the employees seem to have better communicational skills and they are not as packed as malik motors.


The point of all this rant is that it all depends on where you give your car for service. Do some research and see if you can find a good station. Cuz, if you do, you shouldn't be worried much about it being a tata, you'll be satisfied. If you don't, i'd look at the toyota.

[nukeblitz]

Couldn't edit, so double posting. Mods, please merge

As mentioned earlier on, i too get calls from tata after each service. And yes, the feedback reaches the the service station. Apart from that, urs kar calls too, usually before tata does where they ask about the service and ask for good ratings when tata calls. Lol. After all the good service i've gotten, i'll excuse that.

I'm only comparing the service here and not the cars themselves. And i don't have much experience with toyota service.

I'll talk about the cars now, only with limited experience with either car.

As far as the engine goes, i drove the 90hp punto petrol, and oh man, the engine is a real beauty...after like 4000rpm. When i drive that engine that I don't care about the 0-100 times or lower torque or anything at all, i'm just grinning to myself stupidly. Nothing in that price range compares. Obviously, That means that the fiat engine on the tata is more fun to drive if you are willing to ignore all fe considerations and keep the revs above 3500rpm - which is likely to happen only on the highway, and considering the manza's dynamics, only in a straight line. If that appeals to you and you don't intend to do any cornering, go get the manza.

Coming to the etios, while the suspension seems tuned more for the highway, the engine's tuned for the city, the opposite of the manza. Peak torque comin in at 3000rpm in any petrol is bad news for a racer but is awesome news for the practical person, city driver, or for the hypermiler. I mean, how often do you ever cross 4000rpm? And how often can you do it without the passengers in the car complaining about your rash driving even if you are doing only 40km/hr but in 1st gear? Higher max Torque and it coming in at just 3000rpm means a lot of low end grunt, which is good for the city and exceptional mid range grunt, which is good for the highway. Very very practical. It also means that the top end will drop off rapidly, but chances are that you wouldn't need it at all...

So, in the end, it all depends on your requirements and situation. I'd say that if you chose keeping those in mind, you'd be happy with either car.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

Just see the kerb weight of both.

Question for experts, Does the kerb weight is a factor in Collisions? If it is, i would sacrifice a little FE for the additional kerb weight. Japanese vehicles are generally light and that shows in collissions. ( The amount required to repair the vehicle to its original state, after hitting a stationary object at a given speed )

Torquedo, If engine is the only factor, then the manufactures should not have a as many variants with the same engine, but different features. If you look at the sales numbers, you could see, the variants with more features sell more than the base model. For eg bluetooth, i think every car should have it mandatory, With the kind of cell phone usage we have, any time receiving a call or dialling a number is highly dangerous. I will never buy a car with out a hands free reciever.

[nukeblitz]

Yes, weight does play a part but that's not the only factor. You've gotta factor in the crumple zones, airbags, seatbelts, collapsible steering columns ABS and so on depending on the type of crash.

Take the example of modern f1 cars. They are really light and the cars seem to fly apart in any crash but the driver is relatively safe when you take the speeds into consideration.

I'm going to assume that passenger safety has a higher priority over car damage and repairs. Assuming that the advertised safety features like airbags of two cars are equal, crumple zones become very important. Their sole purpose is to absorb the force of a blunt impact, get crushed in the process and protect the passengers. It is possible to make crumple zones without increasing the weight of the car. The rigidity of the chassis is also important in the case of a sharp or shearing impact. This IMO, in general, does involve increasing the weight of the car or using lighter stronger materials which pushes up the cost.

In the case of an f1 car, most of the car is a large crumple zone except for a cocoon around the driver which is exceptionally rigid.

All these factors make comparing the safety of two cars extremely difficult on the basis of weight alone. This is where crash ratings come in. However, if i had to generalize between two cars of the same price, personal rankings are as follows-

1. Heavy car with good crumple zones.
2. Light car with good crumple zones.
3. Heavy car without crumple zones.
4. Light car without crumple zones.

Going by this, comparing the manza and the etios, i would still say i have no idea because of lack of data as i don't know anything about the crumple zones on either car.

If however, cost of repair was your highest priority. Then the heaviest, most rigid car without much in the way of crumple zones would be your best bet. Perfect example, the ambassador.
Between the manza and the etios, the manza.

Hope this helps.

Disclaimer- I'm not an automotive engineer specializing in crash safety. I'm (almost) a doctor. This is all research and personal opinion.

[av8er]

No personal experience with Toyota but have personal experience with Tata as I own a Indigo CS. My next car would mostly be the Manza.

I have test driven it and it is definitely a VFM product.

Out of personal experience I can definitely say that Tata cars are reliable and they dont cause as much problem as people think they do. Their A$$ has given me good service till date and I have driven the car 30000kms so 4 services gone by and no problem yet.

Even I was skeptical about their A$$ but I was surprised later and they still continue to surprise me.

Good luck with your buy.

[revvhed]

Hi guys, another opinion.
First of all this is a great thread, as can be seen from the many many quick responses.

I find myself in exactly the same situation and hence i was very happy to see this discussion. My uncle has a Manza Saffire and as such i've driven and been driven in it quite a few times. My dad 'loves' it and we'd often have numerous arguments over it, with me taking the view that many others have above, of the Etios being a 'Toyota' and hence naturally being way better than a TATA in engineering, build quality etc..... UNTIL i went and checked out and test drove the Etios yesterday.

I was very very disappointed. First of all, it feels ridiculously cheap inside, the cost-cutting is glaringly evident; and then you see the instrument panel !! I mean, WHAT was Toyota thinking ?? really ?? Who designed the font and the colours of the instruments panel ?? I admit i had only a short drive in city limits and hence i am not qualified to comment on the driving dynamics but, it didn't 'feel' good. The engine sound was intrusive (since it's not like it's got a great engine note) and it didn't insulate me from the outside like the Manza does. That said, it's excellent when it comes to interior and dicky space, and the suspension's good too.

Suddenly, the Manza has raised itself in my book quite significantly. I know and agree that the Toyota will be unbeatable when it comes to reliability and longevity, but i can't bring myself to pay 7 lakhs for the package as it stands. Sorry. I can't imagine getting into the car everyday and looking at that horrid dashboard.

My uncle's Manza is almost a year old now and has been pretty trouble free so far, except for a niggle or two (power window switch and headlight combination switch .. both of which were replaced under warranty), which i guess you expect when you buy it knowingly, and hence don't feel 'rudely' surprised.

.... and then i went and saw the Polo, but let's not go there