[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird77

I myself lived in Canada, UK and US and stayed for couple of months in France, China etc. From my experience, I found I am more comfortable in India than abroad eventhough our country lacks the discipline, infrastructure, integrity etc.

Give your reason depending on your current position as mentioned below;

1. I/we live abroad and have no intention of coming back for good:

2. I/we live abroad but will come back to India for good:

3. I/we lived abroad and came back to India for good:

IMHO there should be another option added here
4. I/ we lived abroad and came back to India and are now reconsidering what to do

Heard of brain drain and reverse brain drain. What happens if the reverse brain drain is reversed again?

[sgiitk]

Then you should reverse the words Drain Brain!! It is always a bit painful in the initial stages, until you come to accept the pathetic infrastructure, chalta hai and time has no beginning or end mindset..

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Then you should reverse the words Drain Brain!! It is always a bit painful in the initial stages, until you come to accept the pathetic infrastructure, chalta hai and time has no beginning or end mindset..

Seriously sir, I guess at some point very little brain is left if at all. To be honest, the infrastructure is currently the least of my concerns, if it is a concern at all.

The worst part for me is dealing with people. mostly at work. Life has become so much of a rat race that people pull off amazing unethical stunts to outdo others in their race for a promotion/ hike/ bonus/ appraisal ratings. At least in my workplace I can see that working hard or smart does not bring in any benefits. This is unfortunately not even smart networking or effective communication, it has degenerated to pure and simple 'buttering'.

I guess I need to feed that entreprenuerial dog in me a little bit more now! The reason I say that is everyone that reports to me behaves themselves as they know nonsense wont be tolerated, while at my designation or higher levels it is a free for all. And I know I will lose out as I cannot do what is expected. Sorry for the details, please consider it as a rant and ignore it if unnecessary

Hopefully, I wont lose heart and end up calling my employers in Europe. time to fight on..

[akj123]

I had a somewhat different situation. Completed my B.Tech from a top engg. college 10 years ago, and started working for an IT MNC in bangalore. Have been here since then.

Life was mostly good, but there were periods where i would introspect and think if this is what i wanted. Half my batch had immediately moved to USA, including my best college buddies. The rest too slowly moved on (either through Masters or company transferring them after a few years in the job). So at times i would get into this serious self-doubting mode (why/what am I doing here). Would think about the difference in both quality of life (clean/green atmosphere, infrastructure, corruption) and of course the money aspect.

For example, I remember couple of times when i was driving to indiranagar (a bangalore locality), the airport road flyover was (supposedly) under-construction, and it was raining. Got badly stuck and spent more than an hour in traffic for a short distance. That day I was asking myself why I get this after paying so much road tax, and was questioning my quality of life. So anyway, random irritating incidents like this added to the confusion and played with the mind.

Gradually life changed and things slowly settled out. Today I am in peace and I know that I don't want to go anywhere else. The factors that eventually lead me to my nirvana were:

1. I guess it's fair to say that in India the salaries have gradually improved over the years. As a result, we can now save some decent amount. It will never compare with what you can save in USA, but hey, that doesnt matter cause we have to live/spend here and so should compare with indian cost of living. Along with that, I feel that indian stock and real estate markets give us good opportunities to grow the savings.

2. The job situation here is of course good. Recessions have had an effect but i guess lesser than the west, and job market recovers much better here. Outsourcing zindabad

3. I was lucky to buy a flat early. So i now have an excellent place to stay - a nice apartment in a nice clean/green society with good amenities. The area is developing well and increase in property value is icing on the cake. Well, this can't be a major factor but having a comfy home relaxes, maybe brings in a bit of inertia

4. For me atleast, family was the biggest factor. Specially once our little bundle of joy came, it has been priceless seeing him play with my parents, who now stay with us. This basically clinched it for me.

Of course the irritants - bad traffic, pollution, corruption etc remain. But sometimes, a layer of abstraction can be built which reduces the impact (eg: office cabs).

@selfdrive: Maybe this post is off-topic, but thought of mentioning a different perspective - people like me who never stayed abroad have their moment of doubts too. We also don't know how to deal with many of the situations you had mentioned. It would take time but you would eventually be able to figure out what works for you and come to peace with your decisions.

With regards to your last post, if it's office issues, maybe you either need a frank discussion with your manager, or time to find a place with lesser politics. My experience has been that smaller the place, better the quality of work and less of these kind of problems. In larger companies, people seem to need to do all this, maybe to get noticed and move up. Sorry if this seems like unsolicited advice, just my thoughts.

[download2live]

Sorry to bump up the old thread but rather than opening a new thread I thought it will be better to post it here since the people active on this thread would be in right position to comment.
There is this friend of mine who is a regular IT guy. And has no ambition to do an MBA like half of the IT crowd wants to do to move up to the management level. He has been getting his Austrailian PR processed. And is close to getting it now. That both husband and wife are already working means that they will save well there also.

Now the thing is that he has a 1 year old daughter. His friends have been telling him its a bad time to go. They are saying that if the kid starts attending the school there then there are almost nil chances that he will ever be able to come back. Kid simply won't be able to adjust. (Not that my friend actually wants to come back. Atleast as of now.)
My friend argument is that he has had it with the Indian education system. He has some serious issues with the school and colleges he went. He feels that its a pressure cooker system and that the long term focus is on earning and not on learning. He is not very impressed by the mid-night queues for LKG forms, schools with a small clearing in name of a play-ground and of-course the infamous "Section-A till K for class 1 and all year around admissions" in case of a particular school in Bangalore. The whole idea of school has been twisted out of any context as per him.
And he does not want his daughter to be forced to be an engineer and doctor. His idea is that the kid should be able to play around in gardens and parks. Have a normal childhood. That means no evening tutions. As per him Education should be a joy, not a punishment. If his daughter wants to be a guitarist she should be able to be that. If she wants to be an artist she should be able to do that. One can scratch out a living of course but still.
Both me and my friend are from a steel township situated in the middle of nowhere. It was full of engineers and doctors and we both have seen the cruel treatment meted out to kids who could not be an engineer or doctor. Or to put it in more general terms, who were academically not so good. To be different was simply not allowed.

Anyways everything was fine till Big Boss happened. And a certain Canadian lady of Indian origins came on board!!!!
Till now he has been thinking "Kids should do what they like." But this is too extreme and Hardcore (pun intended, despicable me) for him.
He is scared. He never included this in his calculations. He is desperately scouring details from his friends onsite. They they have been very happily telling him what they have been seeing young people doing in the open parks, trams and Underground Railways.

I just wanted to know. Is it really so bad out there. Are the Austrailian, US or English kids really such a severe bunch of rebels?
What is feedback of those people you know who are working abroad and education their kids there? I am not talking of Masters and Bachelors.

[MX6]

Originally Posted by download2live

Till now he has been thinking "Kids should do what they like." But this is too extreme and Hardcore (pun intended, despicable me) for him.

He is scared. He is desperately scouring details from his friends onsite. They they have been very happily telling him what they have been seeing young people doing in the open parks, trams and Underground Railways.

While most of his concerns are typical of people who are caught inbetween places of two different cultures, I find the above set where I want to offer my 2 cents.

Yes. Kids should do what they like. But what they do should also be correct. If he can inculcate that sense of correctness in his kids, he doesn't need to worry so much. Ofcourse, there's huge peer pressure, but isn't that where as a parent we play an important role to help out our kids in their most delicate adolescent ages?

And regarding his concern about kids abroad who just do it anywhere and everywhere, am not sure about other metros. But hey, ask him to come to Bandra Bandstand in Mumbai. It USED to be THE place for such activities. I stopped going there since last 6 - 7 years clearly with what I saw being very repulsive. Indian cities and even towns are fast catching up in this world where everything is digitized and in your bedroom thanks to the internet.

I strongly believe that if we can positively channelise kids in to a good hobby, art or any passion, then they'd be least interested in the muck around them. They are better focussed and stronger both mentally and physically in pursuing things that they like.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by download2live

Anyways everything was fine till Big Boss happened. And a certain Canadian lady of Indian origins came on board!!!!

Sorry for being inappropriate but that cracked me up

On a more serious note, i think your friend first of all needs to realize that wherever he goes, there will be people who would be making lifestyle decisions or choices that will not seem right to him. Biggest challenge for him would be to accept them as their decisions and respect them as human beings nonetheless. This is something he needs to do whether he moves or not, i feel.

As for his daughter, I agree with what MX6 has said. Do your best, hope for the best.

Finally, here is an excerpt from Gibran's The Prophet, that every parent should attempt to follow:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Source: The Prophet

[selfdrive]

The way I think of it, your friend can decide for his own life by choosing to move or stay put. Whatever he does is then a launching pad for his children to take off from.
What they do after that pertains more to the kind of traits inculcated in them than the individual preferences of the parent itself.

In a way, he can choose where to build the nest and which direction they will take off in, but cannot control where they will land.
As said correctly by MX6, his worst fears can come true here itself too

Edit: Oh and by the way, there are worse things in the world than what that CIO (Canadian lady of Indian Origin) does. Though that is a subjective opinion and I am sure there will be differing opinions there

[download2live]

I have passed him the link. He is thankful to all of you.

Originally Posted by MX6

Yes. Kids should do what they like. But what they do should also be correct. If he can inculcate that sense of correctness in his kids, he doesn't need to worry so much. Ofcourse, there's huge peer pressure, but isn't that where as a parent we play an important role to help out our kids in their most delicate adolescent ages?

Its true. We can do the part under our control, e.g. parenting as best as we can and then, well hope for the best.

Originally Posted by amitoj

Do your best, hope for the best.

Yes. He can do his best here. Or there. And that is maximum what he can do.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

In a way, he can choose where to build the nest and which direction they will take off in, but cannot control where they will land.
As said correctly by MX6, his worst fears can come true here itself too

True that. Things can go wrong in India too.

Thanks for your kind words guys.

[akbaree]

Originally Posted by download2live

What is feedback of those people you know who are working abroad and education their kids there? I am not talking of Masters and Bachelors.

I am not sure about Australia but in US, real education only begin at the age of 5. Till then it is pre-school and your daughter will be going to school only for couple of hours and couple of days. You can sure put her in a day care or Montessori and that will cost anywhere between 1000 USD to 1500 USD a month.

Till the age of 5 or 6, it is parent's responsibility to give quality time to their children (which the kids so much deserve) and build the foundation. There are equal number of parents who put their children in day care and who self teach. I am not suggesting that kids don't need quality time from their parents after the age 6.

Risking brickbats, I would still say that the pressure cooker situation that you described - parents are equally responsible. If parents give away to peer pressure, why blame the kids. I am my own example here and I can give million other examples where parents are to blame rather than the kids or the system.

Here in US I see most Indian parents (whose kids are not in full time day care or Montessori; under age 6) will put their kids in Kumaon or similar maths classes and arts/dance classes. They take their habits where they go. Mostly (not all) they want to find time for themselves or are preparing their kids so that can adjust when they relocate back to India but they do this without any genuine interest in the good of their child.

Enough ranting, I am out of here

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by download2live

Sorry to bump up the old thread but rather than opening a new thread I thought it will be better to post it here since the people active on this thread would be in right position to comment.
…
Thanks for your kind words guys.

Thanks for reviving this discussion and it’s interesting to see Ms. Leone’s presence in a TV show influencing a relocation decision.

I completely agree with the views presented by MX6, Amitoj, Selfdrive and Akbaree.
And agree with the pressure cooker situation created in the schools. From my limited knowledge, we don’t have enough options in our education system /society to go in a different path. If parents start showing the courage to ignore that pressure and move on, I guess more will start taking that path. Many parents do make this mistake - preparing their kid for tomorrow by effectively jeopardizing their today.

Back to the topic – your friend’s girl is now 1 year. By the time she gets into her teens, the world definitely would have more evolved. India will have a lot more of west in it, and by the looks of it Australia (or the US) will have more Indian / Asian feel to it.

Wishing good luck for the family’s Aussie PR. I am sure the little girl will love it

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by download2live

I just wanted to know. Is it really so bad out there. Are the Austrailian, US or English kids really such a severe bunch of rebels?
What is feedback of those people you know who are working abroad and education their kids there? I am not talking of Masters and Bachelors.

Originally Posted by akbaree

Till the age of 5 or 6, it is parent's responsibility to give quality time to their children (which the kids so much deserve) and build the foundation. There are equal number of parents who put their children in day care and who self teach. I am not suggesting that kids don't need quality time from their parents after the age 6.

Here in US I see most Indian parents (whose kids are not in full time day care or Montessori; under age 6) will put their kids in Kumaon or similar maths classes and arts/dance classes. They take their habits where they go.

It might help you to read about extrinsic vs intrinsic rewards. Extrinsic rewards (or penalties) almost kill the incentives arising from intrinsic rewards/penalties.

e.g. in advanced countries, govt has virtually taken over welfare of children. Which means people take care of kids not because they love them, but more because govt can arrest them if they don't. Which means as long as it's legal, they would shy away from moral responsibilities of building kids' character.

Same goes in education. Govt has taken steps to ensure everybody is educated. public schools are for everybody and one can get arrested if they hold their children back. That has unintended consequences. People relinquish all responsibilities of their children to the school, not to mention all other types of control fearing govt backlash if they prohibit them from doing anything. But the fact is govt can only do so much. Education specifically is about selection of the best, rather than nurturing them. Which means it becomes the responsibility of parents to nurture the kids' skills which many parents overlook, don't understand, or are simply busy dealing with their own lives (refer to previous para).

Those who care about the kids are also rewarded poorly by the kids because of peer pressure (on kids), who take the goodwill for granted, or sometimes negatively. One way goodwill can go only so far, regardless of how much motivated it is.

In other words, when you move to a different society, there is always a possibility to go to an extra mile to bring the best of both the worlds, but in all likelyhood it will fade over years. And trying to do it while abiding by local laws and conventions makes it much more difficult.

@Anant, a small level of neurotic-ism is helpful in building a competitive individual. I won't discard the utility of a pressure cooker just like that

EDIT: Keeping everything else in mind, I personally think for a girl child, a developed country is much better than India for growing up. The parent may be uncomfortable seeing her growing up as a westernized girl but I would be more concerned about how the girl compares the two alternatives.

[swiftnfurious]

Good thread and I agree with you on most of the points. Though our land is better in lot of aspects than other countries, I have to admit that we have lost a lot of charm in the past 4-5 years. My POV on those..

Originally Posted by selfdrive

- Rudeness/ boorishness/ arrogance
Any person on the street has an attitude about him/ her. The smiles seem to have disappeared only to replaced by a permanent frown/ scowl. Is this more due to the inflation or the rat race?

I would not call it arrogance. It's more of "minding my own business"! With the incomes / opportunities soaring, so has malpractices. Be assured we are no longer living in those beautiful villages [or old cities] where "bonding" between people was bigger & better. Today we never know who will dump us given a chance. People used to help us previously, crimes have increased taking advantage of such mentality & people choose to be safer by avoiding strangers.

5 years back you would have happily given a lift to people in your vehicle. Today if some one on the road asks for a lift, will you feel comfortable? On the other hand, if a stranger offers a lift, will you accept before having a doubt in your mind as to how good or bad might be that person. I would rather pass some one offering a lift or asking for a lift because I don't want to take a risk! I read too many cases of robbery & extortion cases in today's world!

Originally Posted by selfdrive

- Tardiness/ lack of punctuality
I can understand people getting caught in traffic, but of late I am beginning to feel that people dont seem to care any less.

Traffic is the major reason, people not willing to adjust is the bigger reason. I used to travel by 6.45 AM just to beat the traffic lights though at 7 AM traffic will be thin. I have noticed people assuming that there will be lesser traffic when they want to travel and NOT advancing the travel by even 30 mins. Result - at the first block, they lose time and start racing to reach the venue on time.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

- Service/ support issues
Recently I had an issue with my air cooler and the servicing mechanics just refused to come over to repair it depsite numerous appointments/ assurances. For another issue, an electrician grudgingly came over and then promptly overcharged me (though not explicitly mentioning it).

From what I understand, private sector has been providing lesser CE, public sectors are becoming better. There were times when players like hutch, Airtel etc gave astounding CE & made BSNL look like $h*t. Now I see so many CE issues with the private players and I had a SUPERB CE from BSNL - could NOT digest that for 2 days. From what I understand, if someone has a bigger customer base, they feel they are invincible!

Originally Posted by selfdrive

- Traffic urgency
Everyone seems to be in a rush to get to wherever they are going. If they are so late everyday, it would perhaps be a bit better to leave early. I presume that people are not estimating their commute times in an efficent manner or that they are so impatient that they want to overtake eveyr vehicle they see.

Cannot help it! It's people's mindset that if I overtake two vehicles in the front, I reach quicker than them - This doesn't hold good even on highways today. In the process of going quicker, they unknowingly create bigger traffic issues by blocking more vehicles & inviting their ire!

The traffic issues have to be sorted out by the drivers on the road and it will NOT happen until we have stricter rules and empowerment. Till that day when all of us think that "I do it first" than "You do it first", I don't see a change coming.

[akbaree]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

It might help you to read about extrinsic vs intrinsic rewards. Extrinsic rewards (or penalties) almost kill the incentives arising from intrinsic rewards/penalties.

There's a beautiful discussion about this (and much more) in this book "Montessori: The science Behind the Genius"
There are other good books as well. One good thing about the book above is that it presents facts from both end of the spectrum and doesn't present authoritative or prescriptive view although the book is about Montessori methods.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

@Anant, a small level of neurotic-ism is helpful in building a competitive individual. I won't discard the utility of a pressure cooker just like that

@Vivek: You are correct that competition is good. What bothers me is who decides where to compete. If kid is genuinely interested in something, he/she will be (as you may call it) intrinsically motivated and competitive. But problems begin when parents decide that my child should be competitive in so and so. And decide which classes (or extra classes and extra extra classes) there child should attend. Facilitation is good but not the selection: in other words, providing right stimuli to enable children making right decisions is important but not making the decision for them (except in very few cases).

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by akbaree

@Vivek: You are correct that competition is good. What bothers me is who decides where to compete. If kid is genuinely interested in something, he/she will be (as you may call it) intrinsically motivated and competitive.

For a society or economy to be successful the focus should be not on
1. what one wants to do. or
2. what one is exceptionally good at.

but
3. What skills are needed in the bigger scheme of things.

For an individual to be successful, well, that's a different story. But history has proved that a society built up of people sacrificing individual goals performs much better than otherwise, provided there are enough safeguards for deterring individual's from pursuing individual goals at the cost of collective goals.

We can take this discussion to parenthood thread I guess.