[akbaree]

Sorry; way way (I don't think that this discussion about "what's good for economy" belongs even to the parenting thread; I don't know). I promise no off topic comments from me after this ...

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

For a society or economy to be successful the focus should be not on
1. what one wants to do. or
2. what one is exceptionally good at.

but
3. What skills are needed in the bigger scheme of things.

For an individual to be successful, well, that's a different story. But history has proved that a society built up of people sacrificing individual goals performs much better than otherwise, provided there are enough safeguards for deterring individual's from pursuing individual goals at the cost of collective goals.

We can take this discussion to parenthood thread I guess.

First of all, I was presenting my point of view as a parent with a concern that every parent has for the well being (academically or otherwise) of their children. Because download2live requested feedback about education abroad while concerned with the same back in India.

Even from larger scheme of things perspective - I would beg to differ. Happy society comes from happy people. So I don't think that larger good of society can come from people who are not happy or motivated enough.

Well, I am glad that you presented this view though. I hope people understand this hypocrisy under the egalitarian face (of course I don't mean yours, but in general). The normal harry thinks that the whole idea of developed (and egalitarian) society is to allow more and better choices. But who cares about the skeletons it's hiding.

On a different note, if we allow our children to make their decisions by providing the right stimuli (at least to our best ability) then some day they will be in the best position to make the right decision even for the society. After all we are social beings - aren't we?

[Jeeper1941]

Great thread! As an Indian who has been living overseas for a long time, I completely agree with some of the points. I am originally from Bangalore, and even though I am no longer an Indian national on paper, I will always be an Indian. I love the country, the life, the people and of course the food.
I just returned from a 3 week trip to Bangalore, and I am actually saddened to see how much it has changed. In the 4 years since my last visit, Bangalore seems to have gotten more crowded, the roads are choked and traffic rules seem to be non-existent.

I totally agree with the rudeness factor. It seems people simply don't care about fellow human beings anymore, and it also looks as though human life has no value. I saw so many instances of woefully-inadequate ambulances (they are nothing more than a van with a rusted stretcher), trying to go through the traffic. People don't seem to care that there is an ambulance and they don't even bother making room. It is so shocking to see this disdain for human life. The auto-rickshaw driver I was speaking to told me (in kannada) "oh what can we do, there is no space, that person in that ambulance is going to die anyway".

Wow. What a shocking attitude! If people don't even try, then how can we improve?

And whatever happened to saying "please" and "thank you"? Why have people become so rude? I think it is up to the educated people (like yourselves) to stand up and make a difference.

Anyway..returning to India is not in my near future because of several things in my life right now-

-I don't have a place to stay in India. We did not invest in property when my parents were in India (in the 1980s), and property has become unaffordable now. I don't think I can even afford to buy a flat. Everything is in crores now!

-I don't have any family in India. Most of our family is abroad, in the US, Canada and Australia. Only my grandparents (on my mother's side) used to live in Bangalore, but they passed away several years ago, and my grandfather had no will..so their house (in a prime location in Basavanagudi) is now under litigation, and it doesn't look as though it will resolve anytime soon.

-My dad is into guns/firearms. He has a huge collection of rifles and handguns, which cannot be brought into India. And there is absolutely no way my father is going to give up his guns, so that completely rules out a relocation to India.

I would love to settle somewhere in Coorg someday, but looks like it will not happen anytime soon :(

[oss]

I can adjust to the schooling system; i get adjusted to the traffic, pollution, chaos; i even adjusted myself to the work environment. But what about the government that has been mercilessly taking its citizens for a ride?

It's when you look at the likes of Mamata-s, Raja-s, Reddy-s, Yeddy-s and the countless local goondas and their nexus with law enforcement and corrupt babus that you start wondering if you made the right decision to move back

[bluevolt]

Originally Posted by oss

It's when you look at the likes of Mamata-s, Raja-s, Reddy-s, Yeddy-s and the countless local goondas and their nexus with law enforcement and corrupt babus that you start wondering if you made the right decision to move back

+1.

I will definitely opt/consider to move out of this country once I complete my education (masters).

[faustus77]

Selfdrive and others
Hi
Just stumbled upon this thread.Read a few posts.
Will go through the others some other time.
Have you noticed a funny trait?The moment a plane is nearing its parking bay most will open the overhead bins and take their luggage so they can rush like they have an appointment outside.Bear in mind that some will have to wait until their checked luggage arrives.This is in spite of the cabin crew requesting the passengers not to open the bins until the engines are switched off.
In April Jug Suraiya in Times of India mentioned the unsmiling trait and compared that to Sri Lankans smiling faces.Mind you they have have come out of a long drawn out civil war.
Bhutan is no 1 on happines index.Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by bluevolt

+1.
I will definitely opt/consider to move out of this country once I complete my education (masters).

Every place has its own merits/demerits. Being someone who lives outside India, I closely assess the positives and negatives of the societies I have lived in. Infact the OP does not indicate anywhere that our country is bad. It was just an analysis of what have changed in the last few years.

Originally Posted by faustus77

Selfdrive and others
Hi
Just stumbled upon this thread.Read a few posts.
Will go through the others some other time.
Have you noticed a funny trait?The moment a plane is nearing its parking bay most will open the overhead bins and take their luggage so they can rush like they have an appointment outside.Bear in mind that some will have to wait until their checked luggage arrives.This is in spite of the cabin crew requesting the passengers not to open the bins until the engines are switched off.

It is indeed an annoying trait, but nothing specific to India. I have seen this busy bees in every flight I have boarded (the only exception was in Tokyo).

Originally Posted by faustus77

In April Jug Suraiya in Times of India mentioned the unsmiling trait and compared that to Sri Lankans smiling faces.Mind you they have have come out of a long drawn out civil war.
Bhutan is no 1 on happines index.Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards

Agree… In general, our society is averse to smile at strangers. In my observation, this is more of a trait with the educated group.

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by Jeeper1941

I saw so many instances of woefully-inadequate ambulances (they are nothing more than a van with a rusted stretcher), trying to go through the traffic. People don't seem to care that there is an ambulance and they don't even bother making room. It is so shocking to see this disdain for human life. The auto-rickshaw driver I was speaking to told me (in kannada) "oh what can we do, there is no space, that person in that ambulance is going to die anyway".

Wow. What a shocking attitude! If people don't even try, then how can we improve?(

The road which i commute everyday has around 5 very large and important hospitals here in chennai. Every day i see atleast 2 ambulances crawling along with the office going traffic. Except for a few, most of them just ignore the blaring horns and sirens of the ambulance. Few years back atleast the traffic cops used to help the ambulances find their way, but now they too have given up.
IMO the prime reason for this shocking attitude is the growth we have seen in the past decade. Everybody wants to run, run and run faster.
The only way urban Indians are gonna change is, if this country plunges into a 'real' recession and people understand that making money is not the only thing.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Jeeper1941

-My dad is into guns/firearms. He has a huge collection of rifles and handguns, which cannot be brought into India. And there is absolutely no way my father is going to give up his guns, so that completely rules out a relocation to India.

I would love to settle somewhere in Coorg someday, but looks like it will not happen anytime soon :(

Basis your post I imagine you're from Coorg. Being from a plantation background myself I completely empathise with you. Every time I go abroad on holiday or otherwise, I feel very unhappy the moment it becomes time to come back, because of the chaos I know I will see from the time I land onwards! But for me this is ultimately home! Wish we could some greater accountability and overall improvement though!

[faustus77]

Hi everybody.
Following is a letter to the editor in DNA(around 22nd of Dec 2011).Ayn Rand sums up superbly.
Judge for yourselves.
Ayn Rand on India?
Did Ayn Rand have India in mind when she wrote this? “When you know that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing, when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods but in favours, when you see that men get rich more easily by graft rather than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them but protect them against you, you know that your society is doomed.”
—Col RP Chaturvedi, New Delhi
Regards
MODS:If inappropriate pl delete

Originally Posted by oss

I can adjust to the schooling system; i get adjusted to the traffic, pollution, chaos; i even adjusted myself to the work environment. But what about the government that has been mercilessly taking its citizens for a ride?

It's when you look at the likes of Mamata-s, Raja-s, Reddy-s, Yeddy-s and the countless local goondas and their nexus with law enforcement and corrupt babus that you start wondering if you made the right decision to move back

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by oss

It's when you look at the likes of Mamata-s, Raja-s, Reddy-s, Yeddy-s and the countless local goondas and their nexus with law enforcement and corrupt babus that you start wondering if you made the right decision to move back

I agree to an extent. But to be honest somewhere in my head the top layer has always been like that. The difference that I see over the past few years is the arrogance, attitude and money display by the local thugs in white clothes.
I have no idea how they earn their money to have multiple properties and SUVs while I keep paying escalating mortgage costs all my life.

Originally Posted by bluevolt

I will definitely opt/consider to move out of this country once I complete my education (masters).

In terms of exposure, this is a good idea. But I still feel you should do this for the correct reason as a positive rather than doing it for a negative reason or to run away to another place. After all, most countries have the same issues at different levels of tolerance. Plus, its also possible that you could end up in a desi dominated area where it could be worse for you!

Originally Posted by faustus77

Have you noticed a funny trait?The moment a plane is nearing its parking bay most will open the overhead bins and take their luggage so they can rush like they have an appointment outside.

yeah, this is common to all people but I have seen Indian people are quite rude to waiters/ attendants/ air hostesses/ stewards/ anyone serving them. Over the past years, I was a frequent flier on the EU-India sector and I know what faces the cabin crew makes when they see Indians board the flight.
Over a period of time I knew how to win them over. A smile, no undue attention to women, no unnecessary cribbing about food, helping them a bit by handing over trays, picking up your own napkins, arranging the tray etc. Most importantly, speakng in their local language and not calling for anyone by clicking fingers.

The most glaring incident I noticed was when we travelled to Geneva. We were 5 people including one 4 year old kid. As our passports were Indian, the reception lady had nervously reserved a separate room for us than the one we had booked. A smaller one and on the first floor instead of the top floor one overlooking town. She informed this to me during check in and I asked her the reason calmly in French. Her face lit up as if I had brought her freshly baked croissants from Paris. My wife joined the chat within a couple of minutes she gave us the originally allotted room. Without us even asking for it.
During breakfast next day I spoke to her casually and asked her if she had any bad experiences with Indians. Her list (not in order of priority):
- ordering for things to be done at buffet breakfast
- picking eatables with bare hands where tongs/ forks should be used. for bread, eggs, cheese etc is normally used.
- keeping bathrooms unclean after use (sticker bindis on mirrors etc)
- to sum it up total lack of etiquette and sensitivity for the people around

Apparently they had lost some business due to a few reviews from other guests who saw such behaviour. And she was specific enough to mention a particular community from whom they had experienced such repeated behaviour.

Also, if you go to some Swiss tourist places of interest, there are notices on those pay-per-use binoculars banning usage of other coins. Guess which is always the first currency on that list?!

My point in stating these examples is that if we behave like this when we are elsewhere, how boorish must we be when we are at home. Where we dont pay heed to any rules whatsoever.

Originally Posted by vb-san

Infact the OP does not indicate anywhere that our country is bad. It was just an analysis of what have changed in the last few years.

Yes, that is the objective

Originally Posted by vb-san

Agree… In general, our society is averse to smile at strangers. In my observation, this is more of a trait with the educated group.

Forget strangers. Here in India, if I smile at anyone at office they look at me as if I have asked for their last paycheck and some women look at me as if I am about to drop to my knees with a rose in my hand.
Come on, as people working in the same department it does not take too much of an effort to say hi. But of course, in some cases people get a message that is not being sent so I can understand the ladies being a bit wary but what about the guys?

Originally Posted by Daewood

Except for a few, most of them just ignore the blaring horns and sirens of the ambulance. Few years back atleast the traffic cops used to help the ambulances find their way, but now they too have given up.

Sad. totally insensitive. These days everyone is running after making multiple properties and earning money.
Everyone has to be a winner and leader/ manager. Whats wrong if you have 1 house/ flat on mortgage and are a man of simple means? Does everything need to be flash?
But its being reinforced in every field. Look at the ads on the telly. Preparation for winning (translated: taiyaari jeet ki). Whats Bournvita got to do with winning. And why is all emphasis put on winning?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Every time I go abroad on holiday or otherwise, I feel very unhappy the moment it becomes time to come back, because of the chaos I know I will see from the time I land onwards! But for me this is ultimately home!

Yes this is home. but all of us work on different tolerance levels and give up on participating in this chaos day in and day out. I guess if not for our social ties (family/ friends) some of us would have moved out long ago.
If this degradation continues at the same rate, I will soon have to reconsider my move to return here. Its just a matter of time I guess before one's patience runs out.

The problem as I see it is that we keep waiting for someone to clean up the mess. Like waiting for the maid to come and clean our own house. Not the best analogy, but thats how I look at it.

[shankar.balan]

SelfDrive my dear chap! We really ought to meet up and can chinwag to our hearts content about these things! I do believe there's much common ground to be covered!

Ive put some small comments basis your post.

1. Yes we are boorish and quite mannerless both at home and sometimes abroad - but our general behaviour patterns drive us to "conform" and hence it can be said that we are slightly better behaved in public when we are abroad. In private? You own "bindi" example says it all.
2. Smiles at office and eye contact. I love to say hello to people in the lift when Im visiting a customer's office or just any old office including mine. I dont live in an apartment and hence dont use apartment lifts. However, around 90-95% of those whom one smiles at look back in a sort of flabbergasted manner, nonplussed as they are, by one's friendly overtures!
In general, going by my experience these last 10-12 years, we do not like eye contact and we are too selfish by half to acknowledge or be nice to someone in the lift. We also have no clue about elevator etiquette and will not wait for passengers to alight first before trying to barge in. This also applies to the unwritten rule about not making private conversations and telecalls while in the lift.
3.Acquisition and property: We have unleased a bottomless pit of greed with the rise in incomes and liberalization and the increased consumerism. This causes us to try to get ahead first, at any cost - "the devil take the hindmost" is a silent cry within in any sort of competitive scenario, right from getting admission to a school to any other facet of life! Take even the Audi advert which talks about the A List - its all about feeding the ego and flash quotient but that is apparently what appeals to the man on the make in India!
4. Yes this is certainly home, but we might as well recognize and try to change the things that arent quite right in our home!
5. Yes, the large majority amongst us including me, do tend to wait for someone else to clean up the mess. However, if one were to want to try and clean up the mess, the sheer odds that are stacked against one, are sufficient to make one completely lose interest after a time!

Originally Posted by selfdrive

My point in stating these examples is that if we behave like this when we are elsewhere, how boorish must we be when we are at home. Where we dont pay heed to any rules whatsoever.

Forget strangers. Here in India, if I smile at anyone at office they look at me as if I have asked for their last paycheck and some women look at me as if I am about to drop to my knees with a rose in my hand.
Come on, as people working in the same department it does not take too much of an effort to say hi. But of course, in some cases people get a message that is not being sent so I can understand the ladies being a bit wary but what about the guys?

These days everyone is running after making multiple properties and earning money.
Does everything need to be flash?
But its being reinforced in every field. Look at the ads on the telly. Preparation for winning (translated: taiyaari jeet ki). Whats Bournvita got to do with winning. And why is all emphasis put on winning?

Yes this is home. but all of us work on different tolerance levels and give up on participating in this chaos day in and day out. I guess if not for our social ties (family/ friends) some of us would have moved out long ago.
If this degradation continues at the same rate, I will soon have to reconsider my move to return here. Its just a matter of time I guess before one's patience runs out.

The problem as I see it is that we keep waiting for someone to clean up the mess. Like waiting for the maid to come and clean our own house. Not the best analogy, but thats how I look at it.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

yeah, this is common to all people but I have seen Indian people are quite rude to waiters/ attendants/ air hostesses/ stewards/ anyone serving them. Over the past years, I was a frequent flier on the EU-India sector and I know what faces the cabin crew makes when they see Indians board the flight.
Over a period of time I knew how to win them over. A smile, no undue attention to women, no unnecessary cribbing about food, helping them a bit by handing over trays, picking up your own napkins, arranging the tray etc. Most importantly, speakng in their local language and not calling for anyone by clicking fingers.

Oh I have seen quite a lot of nasty in-flight behavior cases. In one of the flight from Singapore to India (not mentioning the city), I had a casual chat with one of the stewardess, she mentioned that she was supposed to be on the flight to Paris, but due to two previous instances of late-marking in attendance, she got the punishment of flying in this sector. And she was quick to point out that the experience is not always unpleasant, but there are a couple of sectors which is considered unfavorable.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

My point in stating these examples is that if we behave like this when we are elsewhere, how boorish must we be when we are at home. Where we dont pay heed to any rules whatsoever.

Well, it’s often forgotten that, when you go to a forigen land, you are the foreigner there and not the natives of that place

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Forget strangers. Here in India, if I smile at anyone at office they look at me as if I have asked for their last paycheck and some women look at me as if I am about to drop to my knees with a rose in my hand.
Come on, as people working in the same department it does not take too much of an effort to say hi. But of course, in some cases people get a message that is not being sent so I can understand the ladies being a bit wary but what about the guys?

I guess that’s because people somehow are apprehensive that there is a motive behind the smile. Don't know the reason though.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Sad. totally insensitive. These days everyone is running after making multiple properties and earning money.
Everyone has to be a winner and leader/ manager. Whats wrong if you have 1 house/ flat on mortgage and are a man of simple means? Does everything need to be flash?
But its being reinforced in every field. Look at the ads on the telly. Preparation for winning (translated: taiyaari jeet ki). Whats Bournvita got to do with winning. And why is all emphasis put on winning?

In general, it’s kind of heavily promoted that being arrogant or smug-like behavior is cool, and is a sign of being successful. That’s why the TV commercials stress so much on being successful, winning mentality etc. (or use a fairness cream).

[huntrz]

I am following this thread since the beginning and most of my thoughts have already been echoed by others. However I would like to add here about the smile part. I think that we don't smile/are not polite because we are unhappy, insecure and suspicious. I don't attribute it as a permanent characteristic of Indian society but present state of the country due to its failed leadership and governance has pushed people to this stage. The struggle for common man is increasing and we don't have the time to smile.

I am reading(am half way through it) this book called Shantaram(by Gregory David Roberts) and I am compelled to notice how the author finds appreciable traits in the same chaos, lawlessness, filth and arrogance that we find disgusting. Not that we should continue with it but it surely shows everything from a different perspective where everything properly fits in and has a meaning and purpose. Its very interesting to read this book while also keeping in mind the issues being discussed on this thread.
I recommend this book to all the readers of of this thread who haven't already read it both from philosophical and fictional point of view.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

The most glaring incident I noticed was when we travelled to Geneva. We were 5 people including one 4 year old kid. As our passports were Indian, the reception lady had nervously reserved a separate room for us than the one we had booked. A smaller one and on the first floor instead of the top floor one overlooking town. She informed this to me during check in and I asked her the reason calmly in French. Her face lit up as if I had brought her freshly baked croissants from Paris. My wife joined the chat within a couple of minutes she gave us the originally allotted room. Without us even asking for it.
During breakfast next day I spoke to her casually and asked her if she had any bad experiences with Indians. Her list (not in order of priority):
- ordering for things to be done at buffet breakfast
- picking eatables with bare hands where tongs/ forks should be used. for bread, eggs, cheese etc is normally used.
- keeping bathrooms unclean after use (sticker bindis on mirrors etc)
- to sum it up total lack of etiquette and sensitivity for the people around

Dear friend,
Did it not cross your mind that, this was nothing but racial profiling and discrimination? Do you feel the above points are serious enough to warrant this behaviour from the lady? Is sticking bindi on the mirror a grave error which warrants this treatment? Does the lady know that Indians are one of the biggest contributors to Swiss economy; be it as tourists or via black money? What is the great deal in her opening up only if the guest spoke in her language?
May be some local neta log been there to park his ill gotten wealth behaved this fashion, That does not mean evey Indian gives a damn to etiquette and always misbehave.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by poloman

Dear friend,
Did it not cross your mind that, this was nothing but racial profiling and discrimination? Do you feel the above points are serious enough to warrant this behaviour from the lady? Is sticking bindi on the mirror a grave error which warrants this treatment? Does the lady know that Indians are one of the biggest contributors to Swiss economy; be it as tourists or via black money? What is the great deal in her opening up only if the guest spoke in her language?
May be some local neta log been there to park his ill gotten wealth behaved this fashion, That does not mean evey Indian gives a damn to etiquette and always misbehave.

I agree, the logical thing would be to correct the behavior or in the worst case, deduct cost of cleaning from their deposit. First mistake she did was to make changes to the room request, and second and worse was to admit it the next day