[m8002?]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Case in point my Dad's driver. He is originally from Benaras now settled in Zirakpur Punjab. When he is not driving my dad around he does random jobs like working for delivery apps. His kids go to a government school in Pachkula. Government provides uniform books and mid day meals. His wife easily makes 50K a month working as maid tax free. That is more money a TCS fresher will see for some time. They never go to a private hospital so are immune to medical inflation. Not to mention they get free ration/gas cylinders. During elections they get paid in cash by all parties. Every adult in his extended family has NREGA card. This list goes on.

Has it occurred to you that he goes to the Government hospital and school because he couldnt afford going to a private school or hospital? You seem to have an illusion that Govt.schools, hospitals are great.

Regarding the maid vs TCS, the TCS guy has a future. Many engineers started with 4LPA at TCS 10 years back but are earning 30 LPA now. What are the chances of that happening for the maid? If being a maid is better than TCS job ( and tax free ) would you recommend that as a career option for your close family members?

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I feel these guys actually are better off than so called lower middle class guys.

Isnt this driver your typical lower middle class guy? If not, can you please explain who is lower middle class? And also who you consider as poor.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

I'll post a simple graph here that aptly highlights the problem with this country.

It is illuminating to understand what policies led to countries like Bangladesh or Vietnam to increase their manufacturing exports and how difficult it would be to implement the same in India. For instance, here is an excerpt from the Swaminomics (TOI Sunday) article about the Ready Made Garment (RMG) industry in Bangladesh.

Once viewed as a basket case, Bangladesh has created a world-class ready-made garments (RMG) industry that now exports more than India.

The RMG employs 4 million women directly and another 4 million indirectly. Giant factories employ over 10,000 each. Many economists have urged India to follow Bangladesh’s labour policies such as easy hiring and firing and flexible hours.

The formal sector in Bangladesh is not as heavily burdened as in India with non-wage costs such as contributions to an employee’s provident fund, pension scheme, health insurance, and leave travel allowance, apart from various kinds of leave.
These perks for India’s unionised labour make it uneconomic for Indian companies to employ thousands of women in RMG factories. All major Indian parties have trade union affiliates.

Indian economists worry that a large proportion of India’s workforce is still in agriculture instead of moving into labour-intensive manufacturing, as in Bangladesh. I have long argued that India missed the labour-intensive bus decades ago, and cannot catch it now that perks have made formal sector wages too high.

No politician in India has the guts to change our labour laws. They will immediately be branded as pro-corporate. Why would anybody want that risk? I agree with you that India would never be a global manufacturing powerhouse. Even as I write, there is an ongoing strike in Samsung factory in TN. We simply lack a national will.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by TwinBishop

Many of us have not made any special efforts to excel in English. We attained fluency because of our background and our constant exposure to the language. The incredible advantage we garner because of this seems unfair at times.

Many don't realize the correlation between English literacy and upward mobility. Anecdotally, I've seen so many cases where those with lower English literacy get passed over for promotions and generally don't 'get the seat on the table' despite being more capable. This is true in places where English is the primary business language - India, the Gulf & anglophone countries. Sadly, in many parts of our country, English literacy is still only found in private schools which further expands the gap between the social groups. Fixing it is hard due to the wide diversity of languages in India, using Hindi for example will basically alienate 60% of the country who can't speak Hindi. I'm a strong proponent of increasing English literacy in the country.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

When US imposed restriction on Chinese suppliers, many of these suppliers just shifted out of China to Vietnam to escape US sanctions. Many of these suppliers have actual manufacturing operations in China, just do the final assembly in Vietnam and export out of there.

Vietnam has made strides in manufacturing, but it is true that in many cases, it's used as a proxy to avoid Chinese tariffs. Some products aren't even assembled in Vietnam but just transhipped with a 'Made in Vietnam' badge. This also works the other way round, for example when the Chinese put anti-dumping sanctions on Ecuadorean shrimps a couple of years ago, Ecuadorean exports to Vietnam increased by a couple of thousand % but then people realised that exporters were sending Ecuadorean shrimps via Vietnam to China as Vietnamese shrimps. At some points in the previous decade, Vietnamese exports were higher than their own GDP - which I never understood how it works, same is the case for the UAE and I believe The Netherlands during some years.

That being said, Vietnam has really worked wonders on how fast it has developed, only second to China perhaps at the pace of progress.

[AseemYadav]

Talking about caste is not casteism. Brushing it under the carpet is. I would request the esteemed members of this forum to read some books by Ambedkar, to realise the gravity of the problem. The chad fellow was way ahead of his time. Most of the problems that members of this forum deem economic are in fact social.

[guru_max]

India is unique and cannot be compared to any other country on the planet. No Indian government has enough time or resources on it's hand to focus only on a few problems. We don't have a quick fix for perennial problems like reliance on imports for crude oil, frequent natural disasters,corrupt bureaucracy etc. Beyond that we have a legacy of corrupt social structures, some unfortunate legacy of colonial rule etc. These are not easy problems to solve.

We are also a young democracy. In the past 75 years, we had a dravidian secession movement (though short lived), troubles in NE states, khalistani movement, Maoist movement not to forget Kashmir. We also have a history of communalism/casteism and we had a few historical events like Mandal commission implementation, demolition of Babri Masjid that brought these issues to the forefront which were simmering below the surface for a long time. It will probably take a few decades for us as a nation to reach an equilbrium in these social issues. Given all this, it's a miracle there has neither been a civil war situation nor a situation like balkanization. Remember that there was a civil war in the US roughly 90 years after their independence, a civil war in China immediately after ww2. In my opinion we are better placed than almost all countries that got independence after ww2. We sure have a long way to go and the progress sometimes is painfully slow, but i believe we are on the right track.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by m8002?

Has it occurred to you that he goes to the Government hospital and school because he couldnt afford going to a private school or hospital? You seem to have an illusion that Govt.schools, hospitals are great.

Ignoring the condescending tone of your message, you seem to think that all Govt. Schools are crap. I would recommend you visit some good government schools.(start with Jawahar Navodya Vidyala). It will change your perspective.

By the way his kids go to this school. I have visited the school and the facilities and campus is superior than many private schools. Not to mention Govt pays its teachers much better than private schools.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Vietnam has just 7% of Indian population and its share of global manufacturing exports is higher than India's.

While the government and its echo chambers inaccurately gloated about competing with China's manufacturing prowess, Vietnam seems to have made actual progress! I've worked with the motivated Vietnamese people and I'm not one bit surprised.

They are also catching up in the IT services sector. However, their share of fluently English speaking population is less than India.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

99% of us shouldn't be able to afford maids or drivers and we should be cleaning and sweeping our houses on our own, driving our cars on our own because the time of our fellow countrymen should have been so much more valuable to our economy to be doing these unproductive household chores.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by m8002?

Has it occurred to you that he goes to the Government hospital and school because he couldnt afford going to a private school or hospital? You seem to have an illusion that Govt.schools, hospitals are great.

My kid was born in a government hospital, who is 7 year old now. By the way I was also born in the same Government hospital. If 7 years was long ago, just last year my cousin had her baby in the same Government hospital, they are also IT couple. Now do not tell me that I could not afford, so I had to opt for a Government hospital . Mine is not even a tier 3 city, its just a town.

[Ad_J]

Since most of the people here on this forum realise that they are privileged, I would like to do my small part in helping them understand how the lives are like for the poor and not to judge the poor for the things they do.

If not anything, at least we could show them some compassion, recognition and respect. Tbh, sometimes, somewhere, we are guilty of being oblivious to the less privileged ones around us.

I would like to suggest a book whose cover page says what it is all about :

[TwinBishop]

Originally Posted by parambyte

The money that our house helps earn, (cooking maid, cleaning maid, the press/iron wala, drivers, security guards in housing societies, office peons etc), has anyone thought of they can send their children to decent schools and colleges and universities with that income? No hope in hell those people can ever get out of that quagmire of poverty. .

As pessimistic as your post is, I cannot help agreeing with it. You have hit the nail on the head.

One of the main causes of the low pay for domestic help, drivers, electricians, press wala, mechanics and similar workers is that in India we do not appreciate the concept of "Dignity of labour". As a result the white-collar jobs are paid more, have PF and Gratuity, and much better job security than blue-collar jobs. And, knowing English is almost mandatory to get a white-collar job.

Munshi Premchand wrote about this in his superb short story "Pashu Se Manushya" where he asks why a lawyer or a doctor or a office manager should get so much more compared to those who do manual labour.

I think the root cause for this is our caste system based on birth. In the due course of the practice of this inherently unjust system over centuries, the concept of "Dignity of labour" has been destroyed.

One way out of this vicious cycle is to start giving all and any work its due i.e. start restoring the dignity of labour.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by kiku007

.. I've worked with the motivated Vietnamese people and I'm not one bit surprised.

They are also catching up in the IT services sector. However, their share of fluently English speaking population is less than India.

In the near future, with AI tools, not able to speak English will not be a major handicap for the Vietnamese. On the other hand, our IT service employees are moving towards greater unionization. Any suggestion that Indians have to work harder brings about a barrage of criticism even in our forum, sometimes justified, sometimes not.

As I said, we are a complex nation and lack a national will to improve.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

you seem to think that all Govt. Schools are crap. I would recommend you visit some good government schools.(start with Jawahar Navodya Vidyala). It will change your perspective.

Correction. I think more than 90% of govt. schools are crap. You identify one outlier and extrapolate that all govt. schools are great. Just for the record, I studied in a govt. school and govt. college.

Originally Posted by nandrive

My kid was born in a government hospital, who is 7 year old now. By the way I was also born in the same Government hospital. If 7 years was long ago, just last year my cousin had her baby in the same Government hospital, they are also IT couple. Now do not tell me that I could not afford, so I had to opt for a Government hospital . Mine is not even a tier 3 city, its just a town.

There are a few good govt. schools ( like some KVs and Navodaya ) and hospitals ( JIPMER, AIIMS, few small ones) . These are few and far between. Doesnt make all govt. institutions great.

What I am questioning is the assumption that all govt. schools and hospitals are great and sufficient for all the people who cannot afford private one. That itself brings up the question : why are private institutions thriving if govt. ones are that great as you claim.

[NomadSK]

The bottom line is we are a confused society stuck between capitalism and socialism, trying to breakaway from Russian ties and get intertwined with uncle sam. From independence we have been influenced by Russia, due to whatever reasons, that's why our welfare socialists polices are based on those lines. However, lately we are looking to break free from such ties and bend towards capitalism, which makes us neither there nor here and stuck somewhere in between. The upper cream in the society is happy with capitalism and the lower ones are happy with socialism, so I guess we would have to keep that balance maintained for a long run, with tax payers money to be splurged on welfare schemes, which IMO is necessity, but the only issue is the pilferage.

Correction. I think more than 90% of govt. schools are crap. You identify one outlier and extrapolate that all govt. schools are great. Just for the record, I studied in a govt. school and govt. college.

There are a few good govt. schools ( like some KVs and Navodaya ) and hospitals ( JIPMER, AIIMS, few small ones) . These are few and far between. Doesnt make all govt. institutions great.

Oh, I beg to differ here, I'm a product of a government school half from KV and half from MNSS RAI. Those days I had heard a lot of good stuff about Navodya schools and not to forget Military and Sainik schools.

There are roughly around 12L government schools in India, out of which 10L are Primary schools and rest 2L are secondary schools, with an approximate ratio of 80:20, You cannot generalize most of them and keep them in one basket.

The primary schools are where the basic education is imparted to the kids at some of them are at the location where you can't even imagine to tread and no basic amenities, at some locations those schools are run in tents, but more important is to have something to start with. I won't call them scrap, but more of a necessity, people from that lower section of the society doesn't have anything else to bank upon where education is concerned.

Secondary government schools, 2L of them are 90% good with some black sheep, but mostly they are good, if not excellent. I would have send my kid to a KV anyway over any private institution, just because of the diversity of the kids and the grounded families where they come from.

You are totally wrong about the Hospitals, the best ones with the best doctors are generally government hospitals, the cream of the doctors practice there, now again here I'm not talking about primary health centers, where the basic criteria is to cater to the lower class of the society and meet their basic needs. Yes the government hospitals might not have best of the equipment, but trust me they will have best of the doctors to deal with. You just named few, I can name 100's of them on the finger tips, I would say every city be it Tier A/B/C....Z would have at least one great government hospital.

At the end, I would say It's more satisfying to give it back to the society in whichever way, my parents both retired now from their government duties and few other elites from the society, run an NGO/Primary school in a very far flung area. In general we cannot imagine the difficulties faced by those kids unless we see them in reality.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

The primary schools are where the basic education is imparted to the kids at some of them are at the location where you can't even imagine to tread and no basic amenities, at some locations those schools are run in tents, but more important is to have something to start with. I won't call them scrap, but more of a necessity, people from that lower section of the society doesn't have anything else to bank upon where education is concerned.

Secondary government schools, 2L of them are 90% good with some black sheep, but mostly they are good, if not excellent. I would have send my kid to a KV anyway over any private institution, just because of the diversity of the kids and the grounded families where they come from.

Originally Posted by m8002?

Correction. I think more than 90% of govt. schools are crap. You identify one outlier and extrapolate that all govt. schools are great. Just for the record, I studied in a govt. school and govt. college.

What I am questioning is the assumption that all govt. schools and hospitals are great and sufficient for all the people who cannot afford private one. That itself brings up the question : why are private institutions thriving if govt. ones are that great as you claim.

I have not studied in a govt institution, also don't know many people who have.
The ones i have met from KV, sainik schools are mostly from 'priviliged' backgrounds, folks working in the govt sector, armed forces or the merchant navy.

My experience seeing 2 govt schools was in 2014 in the sugarcane belt of Maharashtra. For one school we built a toilet as part of mandatory CSR. In lieu of dividends to the central govt my bank spent about 150 crore rs in that quarter building toilets in selected govt run schools across the country in rural landscape.

The teachers were not only pathetic, they had no clue about their job or even a sense of being a teacher. One maths teacher used to deposit cheques every now and then and would require the help of our armed guard to fill the details in the cheque leaf and the attached form.

After a couple of months, I asked him to come to my desk and I politely tried to 'teach' him how to use a cheque. Bewildering as it may sound, he was not able to write even his own name in English. Upon asking why he was not in school and doing the rounds of the bank at 11 am, he laughed and said 'you know sir how it goes'. They would take attendance early morning and let the children off to their homes. Done for the day, everyday.

The teachers would go about running their side business (agriculture, shops, some finance related stuff scamming gullibles) during the school hours. Needless to mention, they had pretty much high respect in the village also drawing a relatively high salary.

The children meanwhile had no clue about their future, innocently enjoying their childhood. Folks too inept to make any headway for their children either owing to potentially marginal sources of income and almost no awareness.

The society there was invariably civilized even if they lacked infrastructure or facilities or education. My branch there was state of the art, almost 35-40 year old functioning brilliantly.

People would walk upto 2 kms on foot via hills to the bank, about 16 kms by road. One medical store, one private doctor with limited expertise, a thorough govt bus service. Things looked shabby though compared to the nearest taluka about 25 kms away. Electricity 24 hours despite heavy rains in most months.

It would be decades before the cloud of those villages would get a proper school each or dedicated, honest teachers willing to teach or even teach their own children. This was an affluent area as far as agriculture was concerned.

Comparing govt schools of places like Delhi is grave injustice to the rest of rural/semi urban India where the majority of our populace reside and work.

Ah, and discussing about how 'teachers' get their govt teaching jobs is altogether a different discussion. It is quite an industry in itself.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

In the near future, with AI tools, not able to speak English will not be a major handicap for the Vietnamese. On the other hand, our IT service employees are moving towards greater unionization. Any suggestion that Indians have to work harder brings about a barrage of criticism even in our forum, sometimes justified, sometimes not.

As I said, we are a complex nation and lack a national will to improve.

IMHO the India - Vietnam equation will evolve more like the Japan - US equation. Back in the 80s and 90s, the Japanese economy and society seemed better than the US in every conceivable way. The thing about the ‘East-Asian model’ that Vietnam is following is that it almost always leads to stagnation and extremely low birth rates. Vietnam with the same GDP per capita as Tamil Nadu has a rapidly aging population. I’m saying this as a cheerleader for Vietnam as well, the India economy is certainly more dynamic and diverse. Don’t let the short-term pundits whose attention span doesn’t exceed 6 months fool you. That being said, the Vietnamese will always be better at catering to its population as the Japanese have.