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Old 7th July 2019, 22:25   #61
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Legal per me should be a last resort.. you will loose valuable time running around courts and spending thousands if not lakhs in lawyer fees... Also this is not a big enough grouse or these is no significant upside to either party...

It's a matter of one month's salary.. I suggest what many others have suggested. Write a mail asking for waiver on the following ground .


Lack of clarity around expectation of payback and that it was not communicated any time before you leaving the company.. offer to serve one more month. I don't think any company will hire someone for a month...


Say that you have worked for 6 yrs at this company and ask for waiver to part on amicable grounds..


Do not threaten or escalate it beyond need. You never know what right assed rule following moron is sitting at the hierarchy .. in which case even if your HR is leniant this guy will not let it go...
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Old 8th July 2019, 00:36   #62
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Corporate world is like Snakes and Ladder. If you hit the right number, you can climb right to the top and if the luck is not your side, you could be bit by the snake which can send you in a downward spiral.

I wish it was as simple as that. But, it is not.

Snakes and Ladder is a good game to define a typical corporate world. But, it is not a simplistic binary.

In reality, there are ladders camouflaged as snakes and vice versa. Some snakes are literal, some are figurative. A lot of people have made it the top with the help of snakes. Some have managed to cut the snakes enroute to the top. Some have cut the ladders so that others can't take it. Some people have noticed this, and choose to no longer play and be a spectator. They often laugh every time their associate is bitten by a snake or fallen off the ladder.

If you have taken the decision to no longer work in this snakes and ladder game, I must sincerely Congratulate you. It is a wise decision.

As far as one month pay is concerned, take it as an important learning in life. Just assume that you lost a brand new Iphone 7 plus.

The HR has an adamantine resistance to common sense. Ideally, the HR director must be reasonable and waive off one month period. I don't see any reason to be vindictive as you have not absconded. That said, this world is of snakes. So, assume you have been bitten by one. Pay them up and leave with your head held high because you have won the battle on moral grounds anyway.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:13   #63
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Quote:
Originally Posted by driverace View Post
TLDR/ I quit my desk job, since I want to pursue adventure sport of paragliding as a living.
I resigned, Manager accepted & he proposed a relieving date - all on email. The company wants me to pay notice period shortfall.
I absolutely do NOT want to pay the notice period shortfall.

[b]How do I go about this?
My Dad worked for a public sector bank and the same thing happened to him as well. Despite getting a date of retirement from the HR themselves, he was asked to pay for 2 months notice period. Since the amount was a good 2L+, he instead, decided to serve out those 2 months and pocket the pay instead of having to lighten his pocket. I would say that is the way to go forward.

P.S. - Since you mentioned paragliding, do give me a holler if you ever find yourself in Bir-Billing as I live quite close by. Another forum friend of mine who works in Oracle, USA, usually comes here every flying season and even he was thinking of opening a flying school in Bir-Billing eventually.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:42   #64
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Update after reading through the thread-
Thank you all, for pouring in with your inputs, different perspectives, experiences & understanding of the matter so far.
It really gave me a lot of insight.
---
Most important clarification-

No doubt, it was my prerogative to have "explicitly" discussed with the Manager & HR - about the proposed date being short of the contract notice period.
I "assumed" since it was coming from the manager, it was the company speaking (him, on company's behalf).
Furthermore, I also "assumed" that since HR was copied, and no flag was raised towards the relieving date == shortfall in notice period, that it was not being considered.

Those assumptions (which have been proven quite wrong so far by the chain in consideration) have me in the place I am today

---
Next most important clarification-

The resignation was done in Jan 2019.
My last working day was 28th Feb 2019.
And this charade was only kickstarted by a "Notice period shortfall payment" email, that hit my inbox on 27th March 2019.

Since then, I have urged my Manager to follow through, then approached HR, then the HR head & now I expect to see the BU head (centre head) in couple of days to "appeal for a waiver for Notice period".

Initially my Manager told me that this should be resolved through email from HR to my Manager - seeking clarification & him approving the same.
I came to know, off the record, that they have had clashes in the recent few months.
Later, the Manager conveniently changes overall approach, and keeps pushing me forward to run to HR or the HR head.. and now, ultimately the centre head.

This and a lot of context - compelled me to give the critical input here - that he is spineless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
..
You asked for the soonest possible date and your Manager gave you that and now you call him spineless? Is it fair?
I was later told by HR, that in such cases, the Manager has to explicitly write to HR to waive off the NP-shortfall, which my Manager didn't, and this all is solely the result of that.
My manager never followed through with that, neither did he do enough to close the fallout later.
He could have easily sought the approval from our Vertical leader and closed this basis my discussion with him about the resignation.
Neither standing up for what he proposed, nor helping me build proper case for escalation is why he earns the spineless badge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
What is the significance of the word "American"?
Since the local manager, is pretty much going to be of no use, I deliberately mentioned, that the +1 Manager hails from the Americas.
Meanwhile, I found out, that the notice period recovery of such kind is absolutely not the norm in Europe- the current HQ for our company ( nor in Americas - the earlier HQ of our company)
IF that helps, it would be great!

---------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by am1m View Post
I am very curious about why a company would go to this extent enforce a notice period.
Also- This is the Indian operation of a super-huge-MNC we are talking about!


Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Other than the contract, I am not sure what the company gains by getting money. There was no loss due to work or anything. HR definitely lacks human feel.
I am glad I am not the only one wondering about this.
Did you read about this--
This one's even more insane!
Quote:
I did some digging and there was this IT/Systems in charge fellow who resigned recently.
He served the notice period & for whatever reason, his manager let him go 2 days earlier, that too with a record on email.
Still, he was asked to pay 2 days worth of notice period recovery amount, before his dues were cleared!!
He paid it up since he was supposed to leave abroad for his next job & it was a small amount which he didn't want to hold up the larger settlement dues over that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
1 @Driverace - there are two issues here - one is the employee serving the notice period as mandated by the employment contract, which in most companies the immediate manager can either enforce or waive. Your manager has chosen to do the latter albeit partially.
..
2. You should have understood the T&C of separation at least after putting in your papers. You could have then learnt how this exception process works, if at all, in your ex company. You are no longer on the rolls of the company and your ability to influence any of these processes is minimal, if at all there.
..
3. At the end, you were rendering service to a company which was governed by a set of T&C contained in the offer letter, albeit drafted by the company. Ignorance of these is not an excuse.



I am glad you put in #1! I do not know, why some of the folks are so sure with the belief that "The Manager has no role in waiving off the NP"!!

I totally understand it well now. #latetotheparty
About #2 and #3, I again, completely understand & agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
Agree with Samurai's points.

I have, over a decade back, won in a court battle (*) ..

But First -

I would suggest that you have a word with the India Centre Head, face to face if possible. Be courteous, polite, objective, lay down your points, reference your earlier willingness for a sabbatical etc., and request compassion on humanitarian grounds. ..Don't buckle!
Thank you for sharing your experience!
I do realise this can go really legal real quick!
Not about buckling to the pressure, but, I am leaning towards not having the time to fight it legally - even though I know, it might stand a chance.
I totally understand that this is grey area & it could be easily spun off differently.

Point taken, about meeting the Centre head. I am going to be doing exactly that in a couple of days.

Shall share the update here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Well, I have been in a soup because of this, but my case was worse. The only saving grace, if you have, is relieving letter if you received one. It proves that it was mutually decided to relieve you from your duties in two months rather than three. ..

What I learnt : in case of a legal battle, you have to fight with your hard earned money. Your employer has to battle it out from profits and large funds with large backing. Better to let them know in writing that you are ready to serve one month.
..
It was only a few months ago that I realized that my immediate manager was not on good terms with management and that the immediate manager left in one month's time after I did.

Best way : Immediately offer to serve one month as your notice period.
Thanks for sharing. I understand what you say about the legal aspect.
I would prefer to stay away from that.

Serving the extra month may not be an option, simply because my LWD was 28 February.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvDriving View Post
I can empathize with you. I faced this illogical policy enforcement when I resigned from the global development center of a big bank here in Pune.

My manager was ready to relieve me early but the HR was adamant that I serve the notice period of 2 months.
..Yet I had to come to office everyday for a month, loitering around, have lunch, loiter some more, visit the library and go home.

With a week left for my notice period to end, I received an email from HR that they have decided to relieve me early and waive off remaining notice period. I was relieved the very next day. I have no idea what was gained by having me loiter around or by letting me off one week early.
..
So I agree with the above suggestions. Communicate with the real people in charge and try finding out your options other than paying up. I would rather pay and sleep with a bitter taste which will eventually wear off than get up with a headache everyday until the case gets resolved.
Thank you for sharing!
Since this is an established grey area (if not completely a fault on my part) - I think, I need to cut the losses and get to a solution pretty quick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Congrats on following your heart! Wish you all the best in the world of adventure sports .

Other BHPians have already covered the legalities. All that I can say is "don't burn your bridges". Never know what works out in life and what doesn't, and if you need to cross paths with them again in the future. I hope both of you can have a discussion and solve this amicably. Meet / talk with an open mind and close it.

Don't bring in lawyers. It's too small a matter for that. Once you bring in a lawyer, your 6-year bond with the company is over.
Thank you, GTO for your inputs.
I slept over this advice and then gave it a couple of days to "let the rush settle" and I think this makes sense.
A polite talk. If they can help work out something amicably, great!
Otherwise, this is the next most expensive lesson I will have learnt (after college).

Just like sridhu says below..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
Ace

I have about 30 years experience in IT and so this might only be tangentially related advise. But I think you should let it go and walk away .

Not because you are wrong. But it is simply not worth it

Write it off to experience and when take up the next job, read the contract thoroughly

All the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolg View Post
Hi,

My two cents - As GTO mentioned - never burn the bridges.

Best is to either try to manage a polite discussion and if it does not work out, pay and move on.
Corporate and senior ego are very fragile and you never know , ..
. You might be right , but 6 years of experience and reference checks is too much to give up over this.
Yeah, and this is ONLY part I hate about this ordeal.
It is the corporate/higher-up's ego we ought to give more consideration, rather than what seems a logical way out.
Even though I don't like it like that, I am not all clear of blame here (not having clarified about NP-shortfall explicitly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naveenroy View Post
The standing rule in the company I work here is that I can quit the same day.
... And trust me - HRs are hmm...well you know what I want to say there.
Which is what was the case, when I was working with another giant-MNC (that time in Bangalore)!
Which is also why I based my "assumption" of not going extra step of explicitly - asking whether the Manager's date excludes this agreement of any NP-shortfall, etc!
That bit me now. <crazy>

The experience I have with HR, especially in this ordeal, only speaks volumes about their overall attention.
Just consider, that the HR's +1 manager did not flinch, while borderline threatening me into paying, with the bargaining chip of "Do you want us to mention all this <questioning> when a case comes in for your background check..?"
Ironical that HR expands to Human Resources!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJK View Post
..Whether the policy makes sense or not, is too late to debate as this has to be considered before signing/entering into the agreement.

As someone mentioned, higher-ups in the organisation can put HR in it's place but if you are unable to convince the higher-ups, there appears to be slim hope. Btw, it works in my organisation-VP's usually can influence to over-ride policy but that also is very complex. Usually I have seen that HR is a mere token function.
I agree, that it is too late for a few things.
About HR and overall function and their actual role in this resignation process - I could not agree more.
After my resignation, there was no official discussion about it (with HR)
There was no EXIT interview conducted! Beat that.
The HR Manager gave me the brilliant input of
"I am the single HR for 250 odd people here in this setup, so I am busy with lot of stuff.."
I hope the HR Manager at least does great work for the rest of 249 people, since they saved time they would have otherwise "wasted" in my process!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
The idea behind 3 month notice period is simple. To create maximum inconvenience to the employee who is leaving.
..
At my workplace, we have 1 month notice period. It can be reduced if the employee is able to handover all the work in lesser time...
There is no reason to harass/force them to stay.

I don't know why Indian HR came up with this unique and diabolic scheme that a resigning employee should hang around for 3 months irrespective of situation..
Samurai,
I think you nailed it here!
My handover, as you mentioned, was coincidentally done in a week's time!
But, you are citing too much logic for the process here!
And again, it is the Indian policy which enforces 3 month notice (which is otherwise pretty flexible elsewhere). I checked in the Europe HQ, and often it is the work impact first, then employee's interest, then other contractual bindings.
It is pathetic, to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
OP,
I'd suggest just get over it and pay up. In the end it's just a sum of money, unless you are tight on funds wrt to your current venture. Give the feedback to the higher ups but don't burn your bridges.
That would be the most convenient way. The sum of money is something that takes away from the fund that would logically go in my venture!
It is peanuts for the company, but that's critical protein source for me at the moment!
Oh, I will definitely cascade this as a well drafted feedback.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
I will go against the tide here and suggest you fight for your rights.

The notice period is based on a contract negotiated between you and the employer. This contract is not absolute and can be modified from time to time. When your salary is raised, you get a promotion, you get assigned to another location and so on, that original contract is modified. In this case, you requested the manager to set the earliest possible relieving date. The manager is the representative of the company and his email authorization is binding on the company. They can take action against him if they like but they can't renege on an official commitment given by him in the course of his duties. At no point were you informed by the manager or HR that this earlier date would mean incurring a penalty.

You should discuss this with the country head and if you don't get a favourable resolution, don't be afraid to take the legal route. Yes it might take 2 to 5 years but we have to fight for our rights. It is quite possible a simple legal notice from your lawyer can quickly change their mind. Despite what people assume, no company likes litigation and no corporate lawyer will usually advise to litigate when an easy compromise is possible. The company may litigate if they fear this would set a precedent but your case is a little different as you have written permission from your manger. They might just waive the damages for you and change their corporate polices by educating their mangers to not agree to an early termination date without explaining the applicable penalty. In addition, as Samurai wisely pointed out, they would be hard pressed to show any loss to them due to your early departure and thus their claim might be weak in a court of law. If I were in your shoes, I would fight it out, no matter how long it takes.
I really appreciate you putting this out.
That makes at least two of us who understand that "Since the manager is authorized by the company to accept my resignation he has some responsiblity w.r.t. the suggested relieving date and it's implications.

I did not explicitly cite the notice period, but neither did the Manager nor did the HR- this in my opinion is grey area here.
If it is grey, it needs to be discussed and sorted out considering the impact it has caused and the need for steps ahead.

Before posting here (and reading the responses here) I had not ruled out the legal aspect.
I would hate to go through the time and energy of fighting it out in courts.

For now, I am really confused about this aspect..

----

I intend to go the least energy-consuming way possible ahead.
Having said that, I do not intend to just pay up without cascading that as a feedback for the system not only locally but globally in the organization (at the very least).
Legal - at the moment, I am really not sure if I NEED to go that way, or it warrants going that way.

I do not willingly want to burn any bridges.
But, If I get some toxic behaviour, I would not hesitate to burn down a few sections - and make sure my feedback is registered globally.

I agree, I have a couple of critical checkboxes unticked on my part.
But, the process seems laid out conveniently to not bring this part up, until it is indeed too late, with ultimate decision being extremely linear (as if driven by a process in the organization).

It would be appreciable to at least acknowledge this grey area and work on it, rather than take the linear way- without considering the impact it has on the organization or the ex-employee.

--
Another post to follow (answering a few HR based questions and quoting few other inputs here).
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:10   #65
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
Sir, when you resigned you have requested for the soonest possible relieving date. That's the end!
Sir, That is a pretty unambiguous meaning of "soonest possible relieving date" you seem to have deciphered!
I would like to know, how!
You also seem to be convinced that - it is the "end"?
(Honestly, that made me chuckle.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
Let me give you different scenarios how resignations work. Being a HR I have seen it all. Before that;

1. Company (be it MNC or Indian) are not charitable trust.
2. Policies are made for the company and employees, there is no differential treatment.
3. In a company 'All are employees' (except for individual owner companies) it may be you, your manager or HR.
4. Policy and rules apply to all equally as defined in the rule book. Senior may have different privileges (as per policy).
1. I am glad to know that you clarify that Companies are not charitable trusts! I am further happy to share that we are quite in sync on that one!
2. Policies are made. And sure, in an ideal world, they are definitely applied uniformly without differential treatment. It is way too far fetched to claim, that is exactly how it is! Anyone who has worked their time in the corporate can vouch for that. So, let's not get any more pretentious about this.
3. Again, sure in an ideal world, that should definitely be the case.
4. Again, #2 & #3.

I hate being pretentious. Hence my clarifications to above points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
Now coming back to resignation. An employee can decide to quit through 3 ways.
..
3. I quit and I want to get relieved as soon as possible (before completion of notice period).

Out come:
a. Company accepts the resignation, the employee gets relieved on the discussed and decided date. Employee gets paid till last working day and for shortfall employee pays back.
b. Company accepts the resignation, the employee gets relieved on the requested last working day. However, company may waive off the shortfall (for reasons like: employee has given more than the best during notice periods or before, was a key contributor, was a top performer, etc mainly due to positive reasons).
b. Company will ask the employee to complete the notice period and employee gets paid till the last working day.
I would like to understand, how you successfully made the jump from "I want to get relieved as soon as possible" to the in-brackets "before completion of notice period"!!
Isn't that a little too assumptive?
As soon as possible does NOT have to mean destructive or causing a deliberate loss to the employee/company, simply because that is NOT the only way to perceive the meaning of "as soon as possible".

When we call for resolution of any issue, at the soonest possible, we only mean to indicate the need to resolve without avoidable delays.


This really was the same repulsive input I got from my HR manager's +1 Manager. So, there must be some definition of "as soon as possible" that HR uses, that the Rest-of-world is unaware of, perhaps.
Quote:
At the risk of sounding too pedantic " giving more than the best in notice period or before" is one of your criteria while giving "positive" consideration to the employee?
If someone can give "more than the best" wouldn't that be the actual best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
When the employee say 'as soon as' or the 'soonest possible date', it is an indication to the company that the employee will not be able to give his or her best beyond the point requested.
Where are you drawing this new-world-meanings of "as soon as" & "soonest possible date" request!!?

Why don't you consider, that the employee may have things lined up for them?
The would rather be somewhere else, doing something else rather than "give their best at the company"?

I must say, there is no confusion in your statements & you are quite sure of what you explain.
Only if it made sense or if it had accurate citeable meaning, it would have been perfect!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post

.. If you go my simple rule book, the employee has to payback. Because the employee had asked for early relieving. Legally this is maintainable.
Thank you for your input & attempting to over-simplify the rule book along with a convenient meaning of phrases!
If it was only about the rule book, we would be fine interacting with IVR.
It's the "human resources" we are talking about. Where I would expect the HR department (if they would genuinely be keen in looking into it for a solution's sake) to be all the more active in taking this up for discussion.
Alas! (Ideal world concepts creep in again..)

IT is this " simply not acknowledging" the grey area that annoys me the most!
It is by no means binary.

I have a clearance form - which needs HR/finance inputs before clearance formalities are completed.
It has a box, where Dues/NP shortfall are to be mentioned by HR.
That box is blank.
I have taken all inputs from IT/Admin/etc. about all clear on office stationary/IT equipment,etc.

The HR manager (knew well in advance) that she was going to be out for some training on my last working day.
I had approached her for clearance formalities which she could have easily completed before my last working day, if she wanted to.

I am afraid, there might be a link with the "as soon as possible" or the "soonest possible date" request of relieving and this - also!

-----

I have completely accepted, that not being explicit about NP-shortfall on my part was my mistake.
But (sadly), the approach you have above, which sadly is an outline match to the HR from our organization is disheartening to say the least!

I am sorry to say-
The way I see it from this side of the fence-
Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Other than the contract, I am not sure what the company gains by getting money. There was no loss due to work or anything. HR definitely lacks human feel.
..
IF we address the grey area for what it is & address the issue logically with lesser bias (which will make it less obnoxious), it would be so much easier & sensible way to work this out.

1. Did the shorter notice period affect the business (Business comes first) - Nope. Handover was complete.
2. Does the company lose anything to waive off the notice period - Nil - Company isn't paying anything, it doesn't lose anything
3. Are we content pointing at the rule books, if the processes have lapses (refer attachments). Inputs you see against HR/admin cells are made by respective admin personnels. NONE inputs by HR.
My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end date-clearance-pg-1.jpg
My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end date-clearance-pg-2.jpg


Thanks,

Ace.

Last edited by driverace : 8th July 2019 at 10:24.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:24   #66
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

I understand and sympathize with your situation for the majority of mis-deeds happen to be on your ex-company's side with your Manager being the prime reason for your entire ordeal.

A Manager has the whole discretion to mention whether or not the Notice Period Shortfall needs to be recovered. This can happen anytime during your Notice Period and he's bound to inform you "clearly" incase he chooses to do so. Situations of NP recovery are Red Flags and need to be informed to Employees (irrespective of their tenure in company/field). More so, HR too needs to re-iterate this right until your Exit Interview. Failures on multiple levels from the company brought you at this situation.

An employee needs to be prudent and avoid any such grey areas even though he/she spends a considerable amount of time in the industry.

Coming to your action, you need to keep aside your anger/discontent and take a decision. As many have rightly said, do not burn your bridges, it's your prerogative to chose right action in your situation. I urge you to not fall for perceptions for each have a justification for their views.

You may consider reaching out to "Forum for IT Employees" (https://fite.org.in/) for help in this matter.

Hope you find a peaceful closure at the end of this and have a wonderful beginning for your next endeavor.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:27   #67
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Sorry to see you face this. DO NOT WORRY. I have a friend who experienced a situation where he resigned but did not want to serve notice period (for reasons known only to him). Company declined to give his papers and took him to court BUT the court ruled in his favour regardless of all policies and agreements. Court just asked him to spend 7 days in office for doing KT and it was mutually agreed as well. Eventually, he just had to spend one day in the office and they gave him a proper send off and the documents He is today a Director of a huge MNC. I shouldn't have been exposing this fact, myself being a business owner.

I see that your case is so much easier. Your manager has cleared you so technically there is no direct impact, no policy can now stop you hence. Just take the legal route if you don't have any other go. Labour laws are mostly favouring employees. However past employers are always good for reference, so take a well-thought decision. Good luck.

Last edited by sam_sant2005 : 8th July 2019 at 12:35.
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Old 8th July 2019, 13:02   #68
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Quote:
Originally Posted by driverace View Post
Sir, That is a pretty unambiguous meaning of "soonest possible relieving date" you seem to have deciphered!
I would like to know, how!
You also seem to be convinced that - it is the "end"?
(Honestly, that made me chuckle.)

Ace.
Sir, these are your own words from your initial quote. "Soonest possible relieving date" cannot be deciphered as 'as late as possible'. With my limited knowledge, I can mean it either as 'as early as possible' or 'as quick as possible'.

I believed you were looking for directions for your current situations. Ignore me if you did not like my views. Being in the other side I have seen many cases where ego takes over our senses.

As I mentioned earlier a good talk with your manager, HR or whoever there, will help you out of this.

I have handled 3 similar cases in my previous organisation where it has gone in favour of the company. You can still argue that the opponent did not present the case well, could be. We can keep discussing on your and my views. But the rule book is good to be.

Don't forget, I sit on both the sides of the fence!

You have a case there.

Last edited by LoneRidder : 8th July 2019 at 13:05.
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Old 8th July 2019, 13:25   #69
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

If you have explicitly mentioned that you are resigning and happy to serve your notice period, still your manager stated to release in 2 months, then company can't ask you to pay. But if you had asked early release, then manager actually did a favor to you and you will have to pay.

I had shortfall of 11 days in my notice period and I asked for those 11 days to see unexplored Maharashtra. It costed me 22 days of pay. 11 days missing pay for shortfall + I had to pay them for 11 days and this all was revealed to me during FnF settlement.

Now I am a manager and I tell the rule to people in advance. But if someone tries to teach me rule book, then I go by book everywhere which is actually painful for everyone . If someone politely asks me to do favor, I always find ways around to help them.

My 2 cents to you is to play emotionally rather than technically.
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Old 8th July 2019, 13:27   #70
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

I have switched about 7 jobs in the last 10 years ! so allow me to give me two cents

- Whenever one thinks of resigning, he should read the letter of contract again as these MNCs put a lot of words and sometimes it becomes a matter of reading between the lines. Be absolutely clear on how things should be going ahead. Due diligence on our part is required, there are no two sides to it. I had a bad experience regarding the same on my first job, the HR guys were completely unaware of the fact that my manager was OK with reducing notice period by 15 days. They realized it at the fag end when I started asking questions. Apparently, when HR is marked in CC, it is OK for them to forget as they deal with thousands of emails on a daily basis. (The reply I got ,I was a fresher then and thought that is a genuine reason )

- If a manager gives you consent of early release, follow it up thoroughly with HR in written and the Manager in CC (his job is 'sort of' over) right after, without any delay. Call them directly if they don't reply. I have realized that most HR people who deal with exits are not aware of certain things at the first level (genuine oversights, new to the job etc.) which have to be reminded, validated from time to time. Its only when they realize that the Salary expenses are not matching with work-days and go back to see whats wrong, get escalated internally and then mails are sent, I believe that is what happened in your case too as the timeline of mails indicate you got the settlement mail a month after you left the job (?)

- If they insist on serving full notice period despite having no work or you feel there is absolutely no clarity in how notice periods work (happened in my case, was a small company), its not your loss, just spend time socializing and make the best out of that period.

- Letter of experience is very important, don't let small issues stall that. I think you can just let it go and be happy that you wont have to deal with such things again in life. Remember that Bajaj Avenger 'feel-like-god' where he is forgiving everyone while riding his bike ? when you will be doing some adventures, these things won't matter anyway.
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Old 8th July 2019, 15:34   #71
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Quote:
Originally Posted by fache89 View Post
Corporate world is like Snakes and Ladder. ..
I wish it was as simple as that. But, it is not.
..
If you have taken the decision to no longer work in this snakes and ladder game, I must sincerely Congratulate you. It is a wise decision.

As far as one month pay is concerned, take it as an important learning in life. Just assume that you lost a brand new Iphone 7 plus.

The HR has an adamantine resistance to common sense. Ideally, the HR director must be reasonable and waive off one month period. I don't see any reason to be vindictive as you have not absconded. That said, this world is of snakes. So, assume you have been bitten by one. Pay them up and leave with your head held high because you have won the battle on moral grounds anyway.
HR director is not in the picture, yet. I hear, he indeed is a level headed person.
The HR +1 Manager is the jewel who talked to me on phone (friendly-threatened/warned me against asking too many questions about this process and why no flag was raised and if this is fair? -) He asked me
"Do you want us to mention this - in case there is a back ground check few years later?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
..
P.S. - Since you mentioned paragliding, do give me a holler if you ever find yourself in Bir-Billing as I live quite close by. Another forum friend of mine who works in Oracle, USA, usually comes here every flying season and even he was thinking of opening a flying school in Bir-Billing eventually.
Ohhh Man!!! Bir-Billing!!
My eyes are so LIT right now.You cannot possibly imagine.

Hahah.. I will definitely coming there so often every single year!!
I will surely contact you then for a meetup.
I am also considering association/freelance work with paraglding throughout.
Let me take this offline from here
But, I would like to thank you for reaching out here.

Bir-Billing.. MAN you have no idea, what those words hold for the free-flying-community! (Or, I guess you might..) haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevendraG View Post
I understand and sympathize with your situation for the majority of mis-deeds happen to be on your ex-company's side with your Manager being the prime reason for your entire ordeal.

A Manager has the whole discretion to mention whether or not the Notice Period Shortfall needs to be recovered. ...
More so, HR too needs to re-iterate this right until your Exit Interview. Failures on multiple levels from the company brought you at this situation.

An employee needs to be prudent and avoid any such grey areas even though he/she spends a considerable amount of time in the industry.

Coming to your action, you need to keep aside your anger/discontent and take a decision.
..
Hope you find a peaceful closure at the end of this and have a wonderful beginning for your next endeavor.
The "seconds before disaster footage" actually begins where I did not call the NP shortfall out explicitly.
What followed so far, was what it is! haha.

Absolutely agree - Employee needs to look out for their best interest.
Noted & thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_sant2005 View Post
Sorry to see you face this. DO NOT WORRY. I have a friend who experienced a situation where he resigned but did not want to serve notice period (for reasons known only to him). Company declined to give his papers and took him to court BUT the court ruled in his favour regardless of all policies and agreements. Court just asked him to spend 7 days in office for doing KT and it was mutually agreed as well. Eventually, he just had to spend one day in the office and they gave him a proper send off and the documents He is today a Director of a huge MNC. I shouldn't have been exposing this fact, myself being a business owner.

I see that your case is so much easier. Your manager has cleared you so technically there is no direct impact, no policy can now stop you hence. Just take the legal route if you don't have any other go. Labour laws are mostly favouring employees. However past employers are always good for reference, so take a well-thought decision. Good luck.
Thank you for sharing this useful similar-case-account!
I am definitely not worried.
I was just irritated about it!
I mean, as if, at times, only a single miss-out from your side is enough to cause so much of an impact on our life!!

I know, this thing if over by tomorrow, won't even matter a few months down the line.
But, it is causing quite an unnecessary headache now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dicor View Post
If you have explicitly mentioned that you are resigning and happy to serve your notice period, still your manager stated to release in 2 months, then company can't ask you to pay. But if you had asked early release, then manager actually did a favor to you and you will have to pay.
..
Now I am a manager and I tell the rule to people in advance. But if someone tries to teach me rule book, then I go by book everywhere which is actually painful for everyone . If someone politely asks me to do favor, I always find ways around to help them.

My 2 cents to you is to play emotionally rather than technically.
I neither showed willingness nor hesitance towards the notice period, explicitly!
I just asked for the "soonest relieve date".
Like I mentioned above, I 'assumed' that the company's contract would be a part of my manager's consideration of the period / LWD.

I did not venture out with the intention of teaching people about the rules.
It is in fact the HR and the Manager who are pointing at the rule book and trying to shrug this off into the void-of-ignore-and-it-will-not-be-a-problem folder in their inboxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
I have switched about 7 jobs in the last 10 years ! so allow me to give me two cents

..
- If a manager gives you consent of early release, follow it up thoroughly with HR in written and the Manager in CC (his job is 'sort of' over) right after, without any delay. Call them directly if they don't reply. I have realized that most HR people who deal with exits are not aware of certain things at the first level (genuine oversights, new to the job etc.) which have to be reminded, validated from time to time. Its only when they realize that the Salary expenses are not matching with work-days and go back to see whats wrong, get escalated internally and then mails are sent, I believe that is what happened in your case too as the timeline of mails indicate you got the settlement mail a month after you left the job (?)

..
..these things won't matter anyway.
Thank you my dear senior
I agree, these are absolutely the basics.
I should have known better.
You describe the HR and the Manager's roles so well!

I hope to move on from this soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
Sir, these are your own words from your initial quote. "Soonest possible relieving date" cannot be deciphered as 'as late as possible'. With my limited knowledge, I can mean it either as 'as early as possible' or 'as quick as possible'.
I am not asking where did you get that verbiage from " soonest possible relieving date.."
I was merely asking how you derived the unequivocal meaning out of that?
Why did you only assume, that I meant - "without following the contract Notice period"
I understand, my ex-company HRs are doing it because it is convenient for them, in the said case.
But, why are you assuming it that way?
I said neither of those, and those are merely applied as we "assume".

IT exactly means what you have written here (nothing more and nothing less):
Quote:
With my limited knowledge, I can mean it either as 'as early as possible' or 'as quick as possible'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
I believed you were looking for directions for your current situations. Ignore me if you did not like my views. Being in the other side I have seen many cases where ego takes over our senses.
I was and I am looking for genuine inputs.
I am willing to understand the basis of your assumption / derivation of the meaning of my "soonest possible relieving date" - before I decide if that can be helpful.

I am already acknowledging that this comes in a grey area, since multiple misses have been pointed out with evidence in the system (including mine) - check the clearance sheet attached in previous post of mine..
If you (and the HR +1, and my Manager) fail to even acknowledge this, the egos are reeking, but on the other side of the fence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneRidder View Post
As I mentioned earlier a good talk with your manager, HR or whoever there, will help you out of this.
You have a case there.
The immediate manager of mine - I do not expect much off him (given his overall track record and the way he has handled this particular interaction)
The +1 manager (global head) - is where I am a bit hopeful.
The HR Manager and HR +1 Manager - have the potential to create more trouble, but do not seem like they would like a symbiotic solution here.

For some reason, the HR +1 Manager is also convinced, that I implied I did not want to follow contract notice period, even though I told him, that is just one possible meaning one can take out of phrasing of my email.

I neither agreed and disagreed with the contract notice period in my entire email!

---

I apologize if I came across a bit too harsh, but this convenient single-meaning-deduction of the language is being pinned down as " being the end of it" kinda triggered me.

I sincerely apologize.

----------------------------------------------------

I will be meeting the Centre head in couple of days.
I hope to have a cordial talk to see what can be done.

I will update here, how the talk goes through.

ONCE again, thank you to all - who have given me so much support across the internet

Have a smashing Monday, ya'all!
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:15   #72
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

Dear Ace ,

Much has already been said about your situation and like most I too would suggest you let this pass on a good note.
We all know very well since our very first day in the organization about its notice period policy, if it is 3 months then so it is, no point in asking for an early release unless you are willing to pay for the shortfall or you explicitly secure a waiver on the same.
You asked your manager for "soonest possible" release without showing any hesitation for serving the full time, but the fact is you did ask for soonest possible release, and the poor guy after factoring in all his requirements simply offered you a date when he can release you with HR in CC and absolutely no mention of your intent to pay the shortfall or get a waiver. Hence it is by default assumed that you intend to pay and rest is all background work and it will only happen as per the policy. Having worked in IT for close to 15 years across 5 MNCs, I can say that notice period waivers are extremely rare and that too they have to be explicitly secured in written. If I was in place of your manager, may be I too would have done the same ( he is still part of the organisation and he still needs to work there with very same guys ), had he known it will become such a big issue he might have perhaps simply given a last day based on your notice period requirement, but yet he did gave an earliest possible release date as goodwill and trust me HR will not listen to him as it is not his detail to waive off notice period. Hence please don't feel bad against him as you may know better that he had no bad intentions, it just that its beyond his authority now. Just try to talk this out as best as possible and if nothing works then so be it.

Before I close would like to heartily congratulate you for choosing the true calling of your heart, may you succeed in all your future en devours and enjoy every bit of the same
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Old 10th July 2019, 20:07   #73
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

This question generated more responses than a 'which car to buy?' question. I guess many people have gone through the situation and most of the people say 'Don't burn the bridges'. I have the same opinion. Get that experience certificate without any negative remarks. It will help you somewhere in the future. It is like CIBIL score or credit rating. We don't know when we use that again in our life.

Imagine, you are successful in your passion and go to Europe after 10yrs to do parasailing. To process the visa, there will be a background check and the current friction with your employer shouldn't be a reason to reject your visa.
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Old 11th July 2019, 17:42   #74
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

I had a similar experience with my previous employer 4 months back. In my case it was the director. He at first told me that I can leave within 45 days (2 months being the notice period). But then after 2 weeks he mailed that I will have to bear up the notice period recovery part.
I was baffled at first but then I realized in some time that it was him who did not wanted me to leave peacefully.

So just an advice, make part with your manager peacefully. Make him understand the situation , if he agrees then good otherwise pay and leave. You have moved on from this establishment to do something better. Although these kind of petty politics are not fair but unless our government makes some amendment in the labor laws you cannot really fight with these guys. One way or the other they will find a way to screw you.


And by now you must also understand that this whole situation was created by your manager. So just leave. IT industry off late has become home to useless and cheap people in India.
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Old 11th July 2019, 20:51   #75
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Default Re: My ex-company (a giant MNC) wants me to pay notice period shortfall, I didn't propose the end da

I don't see any confusion here. Manager agreed date is for issuing experience letter. Notice period shortfall is calculated using system last working day and actual last working day. I think shortfall can be waived but it certainly is management's decision. Also, notice period is two ways, employee can leave paying shortfall or organization can terminate paying the salary.
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