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Old 15th September 2022, 20:28   #436
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
I think the best possible win-win for everyone (employees, companies, the builders, auto unions, restaurant lobby etc.) will be if the companies ask for a 2/3 day work in office per week kinda thing.
But it erases many of the benefits of WFH. You have to rent an apartment (and deal with landlords and security deposit), spend a significant part of your income on living expenses of a Tier 1 city, stay away from your ageing parents.

For locals, its fine but for people from outside, it will probably push many of them away from the company looking for a WFH job. Unless the company is compensating for these expenses and then some and no other company is able to match even close to that with WFH.

The WFH people would now spend the extra disposable income they have in their Tier 2 cities so livelihood generation would just shift a bit from Tier 1 cities. Taxi business would definitely be affected though.

Which leads me to believe, we might see WITCH companies introduce a cost-of-living component (I think they already have one, not sure) and adjust it according to the city you are living in. If you currently earn say 10LPA in Bangalore and you shift to your hometown in Varanasi, there'd be a 15% CTC reduction (based on cost-of-living component) and your earning will come down to 8.5 LPA. Many companies in USA did it like Facebook so it'd probably be introduced here. After all WITCH companies' main method of profit generation is generally cost reduction rather than additional revenue addition and their margins are already hit due to additional "expense" they had to spend to retain employees. Their attrition rate of 20-30% will come down as market is slowing down and now, they can implement steps like these.
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Old 15th September 2022, 21:09   #437
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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I think you are being overly harsh on companies like Infy, TCS, Wipro etc. While I think having to swipe 9.5 hours is an overkill, employee productivity is a genuine concern from WFH.

I work at one of the Top 3 Tech companies in the world (most people rank it as No.1 especially in employee benefits) and we have had problems with long term WFH so much that we are now asking people to come in 3 days a week. Before this was not being tracked but now it will be most likely be enforced. I see employees taking advantage of this WFH flexibility by hardly being online during work hours, low productivity, and very low levels of collaboration.

This problem is exponentially bigger when you try to ramp up new employees especially with regards to company culture.
Appreciate your viewpoint. I started my career with Infy and I'm well aware of their pros and cons, and unfortunately the cons far outweigh the pros for talented employees. Don't get me wrong, I love my Infy days and it will remain etched in my memory for my life.

To your second point - I have been managing a team of 140+ engineers who are into development projects and most of them are getting burn out literally. My challenge is to get them work life balance which I'm actively working on. Yes, productivity is an issue, for say 10% of the employees, but I don't make rules for rest of the employees based on what these 10% do. You will have this 10% in full WFO as well.

If team productivity is an issue, then it is an issue with incompetent managers who don't know how to run projects. I have some go-getter managers and their teams have excellent customer feedback all working from home

Remember, Infy don't used to give internet access and laptops to junior employees for the same reasons you have mentioned, and see where we are now.

Get bright engineers, give them the right tools and support, and encourage - they will get you completed even the toughest of projects. I meet my teams say once in 2 months, and they love strong energy and positive energy.

I feel miserable when I see thousands and lakhs of these engineers sitting in cars and buses wasting their precious time in endless traffic everyday. I would rather like to see them in gyms, dance and arts classes, an evening basket ball game with their friends, an evening music session, etc.

Full WFH is a challenge for small companies to retain talent, but like I said I don't make rules for the 90% of the populace based on these 10%. A honest, hardworking and a quality management can retain talent even in small companies.

If companies can enforce strict 8 hours working and government can bring in traffic free infrastructure, I'm all for working from office. Unfortunately since these don't exist, I don't want humanity to get lost in mindlessness. I like to see people smiling, people enjoying their lives, and not get trapped in cubicles and traffic endlessly. A common theme that comes across is - India has to work extra hard and suck up to things like corporate slavery to become a developed country. I don't want present generations to sacrifice their lives for future generations especially when technology now gives you so much of options.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:11   #438
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

Like many things in life, a middle solution will emerge. I do resonate with the need to get back to office. Employees are more connected and get more value (not work hours) by interacting with one another. I sincerely believe the effect of permanent WFH especially from tier
2 /3 cities will result in a diminshed career trajectory as networking becomes difficult. Being connected online is not the same as talking in person.

WFH also brings intangible benefits like better physical and mental health and better family relationships. So I reiterate a middle solution will emerge.
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Old 17th September 2022, 13:27   #439
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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Originally Posted by charanreddy View Post
I sincerely believe the effect of permanent WFH especially from tier
2 /3 cities will result in a diminshed career trajectory as networking becomes difficult. Being connected online is not the same as talking in person.
This is true to an extend in case of management positions. For individual contributors, this is not very valid. If you grow reputation as a good individual contributor, networking online is more than enough.

That makes me thinking. Staying as an individual contributor after a decade of experience was not valued in the Indian IT industry till a while back. Such people never had much salary growth. I don't know how, but this has changed a lot in the last couple of years. In the current scenario, If I am a good invidual contributor, I can draw top salary while being WFH and and not be in a team management role. Such opportunities were rare in India before 2020.

Last edited by padmrajravi : 17th September 2022 at 13:30.
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Old 17th September 2022, 15:32   #440
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This is true to an extend in case of management positions. For individual contributors, this is not very valid. If you grow reputation as a good individual contributor, networking online is more than enough.

...
Just because one is an individual contributor, doesn't mean their networking needs are any lesser. I would argue that in a team setting your manager or leader may bat for you in performance reviews, but for a senior IC a lot of that needs to be done by the IC himself.

In the short term, i.e 1 - 3 years, an IC may not see the need or feel the disadvantage of working remotely. But if you look at your career from a longer term perspective i.e 5 - 10 years, it will definitely impact the trajectory. i.e. an IC who comes into office, talks to senior stakeholders, develops personal connect will definitely outperform Vs an aloof guy who no one has seen in person in months. Its a different thing if the remote IC guy isn't interested in career progress beyond a certain target level.

Exceptions do exist, especially if you operate at the top end of the talent pool : Say a PHD or a Post doctoral degree holder , working in research whose success metric is to publish as many papers / come up with as many patents.

However for the vast majority of the IT / knowledge work force, being in office atleast for a few days of the month is non negotiable if you intend to have a serious career.

The generic problem I see is that folks think too short term or look for that instant gratification (Working from a tier 2 / 3 city leads to significant savings especially if you are paid metro salaries). But some necessary sacrifices need to be made if one intends to progress in one's profession.
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Old 17th September 2022, 18:54   #441
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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Originally Posted by charanreddy View Post
However for the vast majority of the IT / knowledge work force, being in office atleast for a few days of the month is non negotiable if you intend to have a serious career.

The generic problem I see is that folks think too short term or look for that instant gratification (Working from a tier 2 / 3 city leads to significant savings especially if you are paid metro salaries). But some necessary sacrifices need to be made if one intends to progress in one's profession.
This is true with product companies, in services, people who opt for wfh have their priorities sorted. The income in a small town is significant and they can't be paid too little as they can easily scout for options. A few lucky people have careers, the rest have jobs and you can't make that your entire existence.

The main reason why people opt for the hometown is because of the old networks they can easily access. These are not necessarily great for professional success, but helps with quality of life in a big way. You can easily afford good schools, housing and investment in real estate and business to create a passive income stream. IT services pays really well only if you go onsite, otherwise you spend the major part of your income and earning life paying for the badly built apartment/villa.
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Old 17th September 2022, 20:52   #442
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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A few lucky people have careers, the rest have jobs and you can't make that your entire existence.
This is a golden truth. Majority have a job, they don't really look forward to climbing the corporate ladder. Peter principle is a real thing. If someone is the very good programmer, there is no guarantee he will make a great VP Engineering. He may suck at it. Yet they are always told they gotta keep climbing, although number of positions at the top are limited.

I am still a programmer after 32 years of working. I have other roles, which I do it out of necessity. Professionally, nothing gives me more joy than seeing the software built by my team work efficiently at customer site creating real value. Promotion or Hike doesn't give anywhere near the joy, it may actually cause imposter syndrome. This is self-actualization, the very top of Maslov's hierarchy of needs. Chasing career is corporate rat race. Most people don't enjoy it.

Last edited by Samurai : 17th September 2022 at 20:55.
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Old 17th September 2022, 21:46   #443
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

I still wonder if one is an individual contributor and if he is good, how will being in town or in hometown, change his growth? If one needs to grow remaining an IC, he still needs to increase his sphere of influence so that, a larger part of the org gets benefitted by his talent. I think that's the bottom line. Now one can go figure how to make that happen either being in the city or in one's home town.
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Old 18th September 2022, 08:21   #444
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

A very interesting development and a very engaging discussion. Here are my 2 cents.

The Myths that needs to be broken: WFH will reduce job opportunities for other related support services in the metros e.g. cab drivers, food joints etc.

I see it the other way round. The people who work in these service sectors are mostly from tier 2 and tier 3 towns. They come to the city to earn. While like us, they too make some money but can't afford a decent standard of living and most have their family still in their home towns. If WFH is to become the normal, the demand for these services will increase in tier 2 or tier 3 towns and will generate employment. This will enable better standards if living for those working in these sectors. Thus, as it applies to us, it will apply to the services as well.

The other myth to be broken: it's an old stereotype that for career growth you need to have strong networking. Well, if there is one thing that I have seen, being in the WFH environment has actually helped identify real potential of colleagues without the influence of 3rd rate soaping (called networking in the corporate world) that some colleagues are super good. I have heard this a lot where managers say that this guy or a girl is great at work but does not have the ability to create visibility. These managers over weigh networking to true performance. Most introverts are great at their job and can also influence others to get the job done. It's just that they are not very popular among colleagues. During the pandemic managers could see performance of these colleagues stand out from the rest without the haze of networking and manager soaping. I say it so because I have personally heard this feedback from my leaders whenever I recommended an introvert for promotion. This has changed post the pandemic.
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Old 18th September 2022, 13:03   #445
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
If one needs to grow remaining an IC, he still needs to increase his sphere of influence so that, a larger part of the org gets benefitted by his talent.
One definitely needs to re-think the career growth as IC if working remotely.

Things that become easier :
  • Due to Agile. Some metrics are much easier to track now
  • Example : Number of features delivered, or production issues per feature, or extent of unit + integration tests per feature

Things that are way harder :
  • Being known as export [Go to John; he knows everything about Android/Spring/Pandas/AWS_Fargate/.... . In previous world, it was way easier for others to bump into someone in smoke break / cafeteria and then be sent your way. Like someone might rant that my code in not working in Dataframe and someone else might say ask John, he would know.
  • Creating an impact "beyond" your project


Some things that help :
  • "dog and pony show" : A.k.a Lunch n Learn
  • Example : hands on workshos on GPT / Dall-E / JS Framework that is not used in Org / What will perf or AWS cost look like if we switch to Language X from Y
  • External Visibility
  • Example : Open Source , Medium articles, Give talks about how something like Language models in real products at IIT/NIT/BITS etc.
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Old 18th September 2022, 19:40   #446
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

Working from Home, top IT company. The Delivery Metric for my Team is higher than any other Cluster in Account and across multiple Accounts.

So is the number of people working Remotely.
2 in Telengana
2 in Karnataka
4 in NCR
2 in MP
2 in PJB

Then there are Onshore Associates in US

Looking after all Cloud Techs.

It all depends on how you approach WFH, understand it isn't similar to WFO. Factor in other points, set proper delivery and understanding among associates.

It allows for greater coverage, and Happiness Index among Team Mates. Even during the Great Resignation; apart from Salary Project Timeline and Team availability was a factor for associates.

Like someone said Individual Contributor, and not interested in HR Actives and Rangolies. Thought of going back only makes me calculate the Waste of Expense, Time and Health.
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Old 19th September 2022, 10:22   #447
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

Lower productivity because of WFH is a giant myth or isolated to specific teams. I’d even go ahead and say that it has ended rampant exploitation of employees because of which the so called productivity seems ‘lower’. I work in Marketing and Product and both my teams are reporting higher productivity with a much better work life balance. Rather than tracking the number of hours an employee puts in, simply look at the work done.

A hybrid model won’t work unless its reduced to thrice a month. The weekly model benefits no one and the cost of living in metros is unreasonable. I am from Bombay but have been working from Mussorie since 2020. I have absolutely no intentions of going back to a crowded and polluted city. The only benefit metros have over tier 2 towns is that Amazon delivers the parcels faster IMO

Last edited by VVN : 19th September 2022 at 10:24.
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Old 19th September 2022, 10:40   #448
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Lower productivity because of WFH is a giant myth or isolated to specific teams. I’d even go ahead and say that it has ended rampant exploitation of employees because of which the so called productivity seems ‘lower’.
I had explained why this happens, in this very thread. Don't want to repeat it, but check it here and here.

Once every team member has accountability, they can work from anywhere without losing productivity. But if the job requires facing the customer or vendor regularly (like sales), that is a different matter.

Last edited by Samurai : 19th September 2022 at 10:47.
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Old 19th September 2022, 21:21   #449
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

TCS, it seems is struggling to implement WFO!

https://www.timesnownews.com/busines...ticle-94291784

Quote:
The move to defer the hybrid work plan to 2025 instead of implementing it immediately is becoming a bone of contention. Millennials, who form 70 per cent of the TCS workforce and had returned to their hometowns to save on travel and residential costs amid the pandemic, are questioning this move.

TCS, on the other hand, argues that remote work cannot be a sole arrangement. “Customers have begun visiting our offices and labs and while we see the views of the youngsters about having flexibility, customers’ requirements, choices, compliance risks and regulations also have to be considered,” said N Ganapathy Subramaniam, chief operating officer, TCS.

Our view is that we can’t have new joinees not seeing a TCS office or interacting with role models as mentors. Remote working as the only goal will lead to a very transactional experience which is neither in the interest of the organisation or these young professionals, as they will miss out on gaining holistic professional growth, Subramaniam explained.
The employers are older folks in the 45+ age group. The Board of Directors are in the 55+ age group. Because of India's economic prosperity since year 2000 and the omnipresent internet & social media the 30 and below inhabit a different world than folks of my generation. And I am not referring to the usual generation gap. The fear of economic insecurity is lower, the deference to figures of authority is lower, the confidence in self is higher, the willingness to take risks seems higher and the whole approach to the purpose of life is also somewhat different. The older folks don't quite get it {ask me!!} and we are witnessing that gap here in IT companies saying come back to WFO and the employees showing them the proverbial middle finger. This is not universal. It only applies to the Indian IT sector and the large & medium companies at that.

Some of those who don't wish to go back to WFO will find routes to pursue WFH with other employers. Some will lose their jobs to India's vast army of fresh graduates who step in to the work force each year. Eventually hybrid working in the service sector is here to stay. Heck even I as a {not young anymore} self employed have made Wednesday my WFH day.

In this thread I see a lot of pro-WFH posts understandably as 99% are employees and not employers. But finally the guy who decides is the one who pays the bills and that is the customer.
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Old 19th September 2022, 23:41   #450
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Default Re: Work From Home (WFH): Is this the future for many?

WFH has brought out the extremes in
People. A few work 10-12 hrs a day and show better output / metric. Some of them pretend to work but their lack of contributions are lost amongst team average. Though enhanced wages benefits the employees, we need to know that this is a temporary arrangement. When a company comes up with a pay structure, they take into account cost of living and pay accordingly. If one relocated to a cheaper place , it follow that the gross salary would reduce and taxes would be higher ( HRA exemption is linked to whether an employee resides In a metro / city)

Let’s talk about IC contributors: If one’s job can be measured by what work one is assigned and how much of it gets completed, then yes it can done remotely. The value of interacting with people In a non formal way is assumed to be close to zero in this case. When a company hires an experienced employee , one of the expectations is that this person will add value to junior employees. Hard to do when you work 8 hrs a day and are overbooked with meetings on most days. I felt that I had more
Open time on my calendar at office as folks just walk upto a person rather than block 30 mins at the first available slot which may be 2 days out. Also, A lot of the traditional jobs are now evolving to focus on output / impact and not input like modules completed
. to optimise For impact one needs to put on many hats. For example , a data scientist needs to be 10% marketer, 10% finance , 10% business unit so as to be able to tailor his solution to get to impact which is what he is measured on. This is not feasible if one doesn’t interact with a variety of folks (this can’t be scheduled from remote WFH). There is a good reason why the top companies (FAANG ? ) are trying people back to office but not going on full steam to avoid employee backlash.
The biggest issue with people getting back to office In a city like Bangalore is traffic / infrastructure. This needs to be fixed , not employees WFH as the govt is not able to get the basics right despite collecting huge taxes.

Last edited by charanreddy : 19th September 2022 at 23:44.
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