[Engine_Roars]

I don't think it is practical to control a human in this manner unless we be there around them all the time which defeats the purpose of allowing them in. A few possible challenges that I see in following this approach -

1. What happens if her mobile rings? She takes of her gloves, pick up the phone, talks, keep it somewhere and then wash her hands & wear the gloves again and go back to work. I doubt I can make her do this without being murdered.
2. What happens if she chose to take off her mask because of suffocation and we are not around?
3. What happens to her sweat drops?
4. What if her eye or nose itches while washing utensils and we are not around?

I don't see this SOP working in my house but I get it, not everyone has to think the way I do. Personally, we would not allow our maids for next couple of months while paying them their full salary.

[srishiva]

It will be extremely difficult. If she is infected, I am not sure if you can have her do the chores and not infect anyone else. Its very risky and not sure its practical.

This damn virus spreads very easily unless you are PPE protected. It all depends on where she lives etc. If she is in a virus free zone, it will work. I couldn't believe in any SOP and will have to work for home plus work from home for god knows how much time

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Frivolous digs on Aarogya Setu aside - our society has already enforced that as a criteria for entry. Happy to discuss that in DM.
................
But let me lay down the context one last time.

This is NOT about trust - it is about building operating procedures that factor in the best current understanding of COVID.

Ok digs aside (although I did hope that app would have solved all the problems), the biggest challenge I have faced over the past years was in our complete failure to implement any hygiene protocols successfully over any extended duration and with minimal supervision. What we realised was that this particular class of workers just do not see the value in the procedures, even when they have been meticulously coached and trained. They revert back to their own old, random ways the moment you turn your back.
So whatever SOPs you come up with, which are all very good, do think of how you are going to address this human angle consistently, because these people aren't robots.

[reignofchaos]

The only way to prevent the virus from entering the house is to not have anyone entering your space.

All these suggestions of the OP are a joke. Any epidemiologist will roll on the floor laughing listening to these suggestions.

This pandemic has finally taught us to get off our asses and start cleaning our own dirt and cook our own food. Hard as it may be, it is the only way to stay safe.

I for sure won't let anyone (including my best friends and my family not present in Bangalore) inside my house until me and my wife have been vaccinated against this virus.

[Miyata]

We don't have the maid coming in, but we recently started the cook again. We follow largely similar SOP as posted above -

> She keeps all her stuff on a plastic chair/stool that gets soap-washed and sun dried.

> We have hand sanitizers at door that she uses. Comes in and washes hand with soap before starting any work.

> Everyone at home has masks on [for some reason this always reminds me of the awesome song by Sting - Shape Of My Heart (sorry!)

Sting - Shape Of My Heart

]

> All windows and balcony doors are wide open and fans running.

> Most things are sanitized after she leaves - gas knobs; gas lighter; door handles; etc - For this sanitization I use 70% Ethanol solution that I make myself at home. I managed to procure some lab grade ethanol for the purpose.

> We try and keep conversations to a minimum so there isn't much of viral particles floating about.

Of course, it goes without saying that we are taking a bit of risk. I imagine it may be better for us take a little calculated risk. With low enough viral particle concentrations about, it might work as some sort of vaccination as well - hopefully!

I have a UV-lamp that I had got from the US, but have not used it yet. Will dig it out if I feel the need for it.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by srishiva

This damn virus spreads very easily unless you are PPE protected.

There have been cases where only one person is infected even though many live in the same house (without PPE). The likely explanation is unless somebody has prolonged exposure in proximity to the infected person, they are unlikely to catch this virus. What do you say?

Originally Posted by Miyata

We follow largely similar SOP as posted above -

This is the most practical approach seen on this thread.

[bluevolt]

Nothing is COVID proof, but these are good precautions to take if one is willing to have support staff enter their house. Though, it is quite tough to assure that your support staff is following guidelines laid by you.

All in all, if possible, I will suggest avoiding having support staff inside the house for quite some time.

I know it is essential for many like in my case I can't let go of my car cleaner, but can live without a maid for sure.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

PS: This SOP is humane and considers that either the resident or maid could be infected and basically minimizes any un-sanitized contact.

This reminds me of incident 15 years ago, when my neighbours in a plush apartment complex wanted the gardener to do root cause analysis of why his work was not meeting the KPI.

There is a huge difference between your way of thinking and that of a domestic help. As many have already mentioned, you should really avoid having a maid and cook if you are this paranoid, instead of trying to re-educate them.

Covid-19 is the new reality. We have to live with it. Going into a bubble wrap and asking everyone around to bubble wrap themselves is simply not practical. They will break the SOP the moment your back is turned.

After 45 days of break, both our cook and maid is back at work. The moment they enter the house, they take off the mask, and wash their hands thoroughly with soap. After that they are one of us. None of us wear masks in the house, even when they working at home. We are done being paranoid, it is time to get back to normal life as much as possible. Both the helps are now exposed enough to the danger that they are playing it safe.

You may have just 1% chance of getting infected because of all your precautions. But I may have 2% or 3% chance because I am treating them normal. At least I get to live normally, can't put a price on that.

[manjubp]

We have given fully paid leaves for two maids and a cook who used to help us in morning and evening 2 hrs each in cleaning and cooking. Now with Covid-19 situation, simply it is too much for us to guide them and monitor. Hence asked them to stay home. We have learnt to cook our food and clean our house. It was not easy but eventually we got used to the additional work. We don't miss them anymore.

My wife and I work from home full time, but time saved in Bangalore traffic is helping us to manage the house work. Good thing is that we have learnt how to keep house clean and avoid throwing around. Specially my son has learnt few good habits as bonus. We have learnt to appreciate our maids work.

[HTC]

Ha ha good thread.
We have a cook and maid( extended service of visiting house in morning and evening for small house hold help). We have stopped both from march. But paying both the salary. Every week both call and ask if they should start coming to work. But having 10 month baby at home, we dont want to take risk. It means i have to do the sweeping, wiping and other chores. Wife takes care of cooking and baby. With no start and end timing for WFH- its becoming taxing to manage office work and house work both. But managing somehow. Being in hostel since class 6th, am not new to cleaning, washing stuff. But after hostel life even in engineering and fresher days also it was on me to take care of cloths washing. Looks like covid is marking sure i dont lose touch of household chores

[heydj]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

PS: This SOP is humane and considers that either the resident or maid could be infected and basically minimizes any un-sanitized contact.

I think this post is very forward thinking and ahead if its times. As this virus continues for months people will either learn to do everything on their own or google this SOP. Morality has nothing to do with it, its about practical issues.

Disposable gloves and mask for every visit and limit the visit to alternate days. Along with this no food cooking instead only cutting vegetables and kneading the flour. Finally dust the house using vacuum. Rest do everything ourselves.

On a side note - I wish we could just buy a robot to do all the household chores like depicted in Isaac Asimov books.

[phamilyman]

Again - for everyone's context - my goal here is to work out processes whereby folks in safe(r) zones can get some of their daily life back on track. It is about close process study and atomically analyzing it. I'm sure the immensely talented BHPian set can help improve processes to far beyond my initial post.

I strongly believe housework can be resumed, which will not only be for my personal comfort but help reinstate millions of livelihoods since let's face it - many folks may not be charitable and continue paying their maids to stay at home for long. We are not fully representative of the masses and the earlier we can evolve COVID proof workflows, the earlier employment comes back, economy wide.

At the same time, I have no delusions that other businesses like physiotherapy or dentistry have been dealt a mortal blow. I am not getting into all processes - merely solving processes which could help MOST of us.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I admire your intent. In reality, as someone pointed out using their neighbour's car as an example, this will wear off soon.

Besides, if you're standing around waiting for your cook to make a roti before you toss it in a casserole, you're essentially wasting time. The point of having domestic help is that you do other things instead.

Fully agree - the reason I am putting this on a public forum is to make the process robust and minimize post-work.

Believe me, the idea is exactly the same. Move back into a position of trust so that we occasionally eyeball the maid(s).

The idea isnt to wait around the maid to pop each roti into a casserole - it is to allow her to leave the freshly cooked rotis on a plate and then we put it ourselves. To minimize non-sanitized contact.

Our cook has gone away but the idea is that we should be prepared to use her services. After all, food delivery has worked safely as an industry delivering millions of meals in this crisis - why can we not learn from their processes? https://twitter.com/RiyaazAmlani/sta...35145094533123

Originally Posted by msdivy

From a COVID-19 positive person, to get infected, sufficient virus load had to enter the body via mouth, nose.

If the helper is cooking, you might use different sets of serving cloth & spoon than those used by the cook.

Thanks for your detailed answer. Yes - we are exactly on the same page.

Originally Posted by theMandarin

Speaking strictly in terms of defining an SOP, do you envision this as a short term requirement or something standard for the foreseeable future?

Foreseeable future - i.e till an effective vaccine is found! Frankly otherwise, COVID cases are on an unstoppable upward trajectory and I have no hope of things getting better in winter.

Originally Posted by theMandarin

How does it work out while switching maids/house-hold workers and by extension for specialized short term jobs such as services of a plumber/carpenter/electrician etc.

Same principles:
- Hand sanitisation + mask upon entry plus we immediately wear masks and everyone else moves away as far as possible
- 2m+ distance at all times, even if it is a plumber showing me leakage from the house above - I ask him to get off the step ladder, go out of the bathroom and then I get in.
- Windows open / exhaust fans run for a few minutes till after they leave
- Anything they give us - such as used tubelights, is spray sanitized before I touch it

Originally Posted by RYP

Not out of context, just an index to compare upon

arre boss. That's just like my mother imagined me going off on a death march when I attempted to ride solo to Leh in 2006/07. She was truly distraught thinking I was putting my life in danger, when In fact I had thought through the entire process and taken the cowardly planned way out all through such as waking up at 5am at More Plains to cross the nullahs with least water flow.

Originally Posted by RYP

Again you missed the point by a mile. It is about the MINDSET!

Please don't get all worked up, we all here in this community vary by belief but get together by love for automobiles.

Limitations of the written medium plus my gut reaction to the strong language. Let's move on. Thank you for this thoughtful post that dives deeper.

Originally Posted by RYP

1. How you deal with water spillage onto her clothes or herself while doing dishes?

Gloves may protect until wrist or upto elbow. Aprons don't give complete frontal protection

Maids are excellent at avoiding this case. But even if a bit of soapy water hits her clothes, it doesn't cause any risk to her or us.

The purpose of gloves is merely to minimize transmission of viruses from her hands to our dishes.

Originally Posted by RYP

2. Except medical N95 masks, our regular masks are not that effective against prolonged exposure

Precisely - that's why we will be supremely socially distanced from her only checking in every 15-20 min with windows open etc.

Originally Posted by RYP

Why not buy a dishwasher and avoid all this at the root level itself?

Alas - answered earlier. I was dead serious when I suggested FHDDTL should start a DIY thread about the equipment / workflow much like some American friends:
- Dishwashers
- Mopping / Cleaning robots
- Food freezers for batch prep
- Bigger utensils for batch cooking

Originally Posted by itwasntme

After reading articles like these, I really wonder if we can ever let domestic help into our house again.
Cannot imagine how we can keep chauffeurs either. Even with all windows down, the wind flow will come back to the back seat naturally.

Agreed - HENCE this thread. The natural instinct is to retreat into a shell, buy technology and fire support staff. BUT - can we do better?
https://ridesharesafetypartition.com/ is what I am thinking when I bring back my driver. Thank God I have a Yaris which has proper rear AC vents.

Originally Posted by turbo

I'm sorry to say this, but the only person who's being immensely hostile, caustic, and unwilling to reason is you.

Hey - I'm just stating the obvious.

Originally Posted by turbo

How many times, and to how many members are you going to tell people to stay out of this thread? On a public forum, no less.

It is precisely because it is a GIANT public forum is why we must hold ourselves to higher standards and uphold signal to noise ratio i.e stay on thread, like its a constitutional duty. Let's back up with numbers.
Right now, there are 351 members and 9737 unregistered folks online. 96.5% of users are NON members - on 22nd April 4pm when 1.15L people were on TBHP, that ratio would've been 99% or even higher.

It is therefore ideal that each thread stays on point and that we can take the "you should/shouldn't" debate to the mega threads. Wouldn't it be kinder if those who opened this thread to find actionable workflows found exactly that instead of your utterly pointless all or nothing post which did not even acknowledge that it is NOT about trust but that our past ways of working would need a relook post COVID.

Originally Posted by turbo

If Doctors wearing full PPE kits are getting the virus, our measly washing hands and putting on disposable masks dont stand a chance.

For the last time - doctors are exposed to supremely symptomatic patients and have to help them in non-socially-distanced ways in AC environments. How is that the same as our maid washing dishes 5m away from me?

Originally Posted by turbo

Again, your ridiculous idea as to making roti with tongs.

It is common practice atleast up north that rotis are handled on an open flame with tongs ("chimta").

Originally Posted by turbo

What if the maid happens to sneeze while preparing the dough. Are you going to throw the dough outside? And the utensil?

She's wearing a MASK!
Alas, it would've been so much nicer had you pointed out pertinent questions like RYP.

Originally Posted by Engine_Roars

1. What happens if her mobile rings? She takes of her gloves, pick up the phone, talks, keep it somewhere and then wash her hands & wear the gloves again and go back to work. I doubt I can make her do this without being murdered.

Good point. Thus far our maids normally don't take calls during the time they are working for us. If it is urgent, then so be it. Sanitization repeat!

Originally Posted by Engine_Roars

2. What happens if she chose to take off her mask because of suffocation and we are not around?

We gave her good quality masks that we found comfortable - which we take walks/runs in. Atleast our maid understands she's jeopardizing her own health by taking it off. She's aligned. But technically if we're well distanced, does it matter? I doubt.

Originally Posted by Engine_Roars

3. What happens to her sweat drops?

No idea yet - so far its not been an issue but will update once we solve it.

Originally Posted by Engine_Roars

4. What if her eye or nose itches while washing utensils and we are not around?

Same as #2

I get it, not everyone has to think the way I do

I truly am grateful. Thanks

Originally Posted by srishiva

It all depends on where she lives etc.

Sure - if her area has an outbreak, our society will anyways bar entry.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

just do not see the value in the procedures, even when they have been meticulously coached and trained. They revert back to their own old, random ways the moment you turn your back.
So whatever SOPs you come up with, which are all very good, do think of how you are going to address this human angle consistently, because these people aren't robots.

Very valid point. Maids who refuse to match up to my wife's micro level standards anyways never last long. The idea is twofold - she believes it is for HER health (vs garbage segregation which most maids think is an artificial rich people problem) and to make it frictionless enough that its easy to comply. (such as the stick mop).

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

All these suggestions of the OP are a joke. Any epidemiologist will roll on the floor laughing listening to these suggestions.

If you are done with your disbelief - PLEASE help. This is not just about me but a large section of society. Connect me with a real epidemiologist if you know one. I am happy to learn the bitter truth - if I did not want to face harsh criticism, why would I have posted it here?

Originally Posted by Miyata

I have a UV-lamp that I had got from the US, but have not used it yet. Will dig it out if I feel the need for it.

THANK YOU SO MUCH for all your points! I am procuring a UV sanitization wand as soon as I can. That will make everything so much simpler.

Originally Posted by msdivy

There have been cases where only one person is infected even though many live in the same house (without PPE). The likely explanation is unless somebody has prolonged exposure in proximity to the infected person, they are unlikely to catch this virus. What do you say?
This is the most practical approach seen on this thread.

Bang on - if not every family member of an infected person got COVID - surely we can manage housework with extreme distancing and thoughtful SOPs.

Originally Posted by bluevolt

Nothing is COVID proof, but these are good precautions to take if one is willing to have support staff enter their house. Though, it is quite tough to assure that your support staff is following guidelines laid by you.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Samurai

You may have just 1% chance of getting infected because of all your precautions. But I may have 2% or 3% chance because I am treating them normal. At least I get to live normally, can't put a price on that.

Very thoughtful and realistic. To each their own - I do know I could still get COVID from a supermarket checkout counter and an inadvertent dig in my nose, but I sleep better knowing I did what I could.

Originally Posted by manjubp

Specially my son has learnt few good habits as bonus. We have learnt to appreciate our maids work.

Kudos!

Originally Posted by HTC

But having 10 month baby at home, we dont want to take risk. It means i have to do the sweeping, wiping and other chores. Wife takes care of cooking and baby. With no start and end timing for WFH- its becoming taxing to manage office work and house work both

Stay strong man - you two are truly stretched and have limited options. My best wishes.

[kiku007]

People have covered the obvious and it's clear that the title, "COVID-proof workflow" is kind of an unrealistic expectation.

My two cents?

Review the frequency and effectiveness of the work done by home cleaners.

Instead of having them sweep/mop, clean stuff swiftly (with questionable effectiveness) daily, you can consider having them visit every week or fortnight to do a proper cleaning/deep cleaning for 1-2 hours. This can be arranged to be done when you aren't home and it'll be even better to reduce your paranoia.

This is a common practice abroad.

P.S:
A dishwasher is a great investment which needs a lot of convincing to be brought into a home in India.

[GTO]

I think the points in the opening post are useful, also for other visitors. As an example, if there is a big plumbing problem in my house, I will have to call a plumber.

@ Phamilyman: might also be a good idea to invest in that body temperature checking gauge that we're seeing restaurants use.

[dkaile]

You just will not be able to escape Covid. Till what time will you live in fear of it. In Meerut there are 20 deaths in 2 months in a population of around 20 lacs. That is the only figure we all should be concerned about. As the virus is very contagious, we all will be infected, either today or tomorrow or next month. Any doctors here in West UP will know very well how many people used to die daily from dengue, swine flu and malaria EVERY DAY in Meerut before Corona. That figure was at least 5 times more than Corona. And community transfer has already occurred in Meerut, whatever the administration may claim. But death figures can't be hidden. And that is the Bottom Line. There are many irrational policies formulated by the administration here. If we must, fight against these stupid policies. But Corona is not leaving us anytime soon. Not even in ONE FULL YEAR or perhaps ever like AIDS. Motorvehicles cause 30000 deaths a month. By that principle we should stop them or restrict their speeds to 10kmph. That would save most lives. But then what about our livelihood. Balance needs to be achieved. And please stop living in so much fear.