[am1m]

Some useful tips on masks and gloves:

"A mask can protect you against infection in areas where you can’t social distance, such as on a crowded bus or subway. If you wear it properly, it can also remind you to avoid touching your face. However, if you are in a situation where you are taking it on and off constantly to eat or talk, you may actually increase your risk of infection. This is because your contaminated hands can spread the virus directly as you eat, scratch your nose or rub your eyes."

"A recent study demonstrated that SARS CoV-2 survives on different surfaces for varying lengths of time: up to 2-3 days on steel and plastic, up to four hours on copper, and 24 hours on cardboard. So just assume that your hands are contaminated and wash them regularly, especially after touching potentially contaminated surfaces such as door handles, faucet handles, arm rests, etc."

"Similarly, wearing gloves doesn’t help much, either, if you are pulling them on and off constantly. This just increases the chance of contamination on both sides of the gloves. It is also hard to wash gloves, so it is better to not wear them in the first place, unless you use them in a high-risk area and remove them when you exit."

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/coronav.../#16fba69d2f84



From personal experience, washing hands frequently, especially before eating is simple and very, very effective. Most people aren't satisfied by that because it is really simple and they feel that's 'not doing enough'. A couple of years ago, while participating in an outdoor sport almost every weekend, we found that we were frequently getting upset stomachs. First we assumed that it was the food we ate, packed from roadside hotels, but soon realized that it was because we used to eat before washing our hands, mid-way through the activity. Most of us started carrying sanitizer and started using that. No more upset stomachs no matter where we packed food from or what we ate.

Also, since I use the bike mostly, it has now become a habit since years for me to wash my hands and face as soon as I arrive at my destination, home, office, restaurant, friend's place. My wife mainly uses the car and her first action is to use the phone, which then becomes a collection center for germs.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Samurai

As many have already mentioned, you should really avoid having a maid and cook if you are this paranoid, instead of trying to re-educate them.
...
Covid-19 is the new reality. We have to live with it. Going into a bubble wrap and asking everyone around to bubble wrap themselves is simply not practical. They will break the SOP the moment your back is turned.
....
You may have just 1% chance of getting infected because of all your precautions. But I may have 2% or 3% chance because I am treating them normal. At least I get to live normally, can't put a price on that.

Golden words to live by - the key USP and workflow-to-be-adapted of this thread if you ask me.

We came to a similar conclusion at my parents' place where we have
- 1 95+ year old
- 1 70+ year old
- 1 65+ year old
- younger folks (20 - 40)

+

- 3 maid/helps that do a daily visit - one of them is 70+ (working since last ~40 years at our place) and with pre-existing medical conditions.

Back in Mar end, we offered her an option to stay in our house; no conditions attached. She refused; we kept paying her salary, and recharging her phones and other odd ends with no entry in the house.

All that's being suggested in this thread isn't workable on a daily basis in our house. Things will get touched, people will be in close range at times, and the only point we foresaw was fear/tension would go up. My mom used to have nightmares; she couldn't sleep properly. After many conversations, I have made my parents live with the realization that infection is definitely going to happen; let's make peace with that and try to delay it as much as possible.

Nearly ~5 weeks later, the maid now comes daily. A few precautions that we keep repeating to her when outside- stress the importance of wearing masks, diligently washing hands at every point; limiting travel, social interactions and public places to the max possible.

Originally Posted by dkaile

You just will not be able to escape Covid. Till what time will you live in fear of it.
...
As the virus is very contagious, we all will be infected, either today or tomorrow or next month.
....
And please stop living in so much fear.

+1

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by dkaile

You just will not be able to escape Covid. Till what time will you live in fear of it.

Leave aside a domestic maid who is likely to stay nearby, and is equally scared of contracting the virus from her employers. Both me and my wife have rejoined work as we are in essential industries (MNC), and as part of our leadership teams we refuse to preach what we do not practice. Hence, we are going in 3 days a week already with staggered timings and stringent social distancing. This includes mandatory mask AND gloves at the workplace.

Frankly, in one step we have escalated our entire small ecosystem's combined risk of contracting the virus but that is what we have accepted. Of course, we are practicing all possible precautions both at the workplace and when we return home.

In fact the awareness is now such that our maid asked us if she should be worried as we are going into work. I seriously could not lie to her and told her the truth. She calmly accepted it and asked us to be careful.

Both she and us have 2 kids each so the stakes are high.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

I am procuring a UV sanitization wand as soon as I can. That will make everything so much simpler.

I am sure you'd be very well aware, doesn't hurt to remind ourselves though - Be very cautious with UV Lamps/Wands. The high energy of the UV light can burn the retina and also prolonged exposure can cause DNA damage.

> Never look at the UV lamp/wand source (directly or reflections). Preferably have some protective googles if you use them. Better yet, if there is way to remotely operate it without being nearby that may be good to use.

> Always keep away from reach of children (some adults can be children too!) - Their curiosity will get the better of the situation.

These are things you would know already anyways.

[bblost]

I don't think Covid cares about your washing and rinse protocol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOvENoZMmK4

If the maid had picked up the virus on the way to your home then washing hands may help.
If the maid is an asymptomatic carrier, all the best.

Originally Posted by turbo

IF you have to trust someone, trust them fully, else dont trust them at all.
This is, with all due respect, utterly pointless.
Either dont let them in, at all, or let them do their thing.

PERFECT.

[ObsessedByFIAT]

I can completely relate to this thread.

We had a maid for washing utensils, clothes etc. No cooking stuff.

However, with government's social distancing, we requested her to stay at her place.

Now, a couple of days back was blessed with my second kid. No one from my home is confident about massaging and bathing the young one. So had a to take a decision to call the maid back as she apparently is good at it.

We have requested her to wash her hands thoroughly and sanitize twice once she is at my place. We give her clothes which are washed with Dettol after every single use. Apart from this, there is hardly anything we can do, provided we are already risking the young one.
I have come to terms with the thought that we have to learn to live with Corona until a vaccine / treatment is not available.

[AZT]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

We were one of only two of five families in my society who had been paying our maid fully besides offering ration.

Off topic but this is surprising. I was under the impression almost everyone is paying their maid as this is no fault of theirs. Genuinely curious if this figure of approx 50% not paying holds true for the masses.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

All these suggestions of the OP are a joke. Any epidemiologist will roll on the floor laughing listening to these suggestions.

This is being unfair to the OP. He may not be a doctor but is trying his best to keep himself safe. I agree he is being a bit paranoid but we do not know his situation, maybe he is old or has seniors / infants in his house hence being extra cautious.

I for sure won't let anyone (including my best friends and my family not present in Bangalore) inside my house until me and my wife have been vaccinated against this virus.

Realistically there is a chance there may never be a vaccine. Even if there is, it will be a while before we can produce hundreds of millions of it and then make it available to everyone. Best thing is to take precautions and start meeting people eventually.

Originally Posted by GTO

@ Phamilyman: might also be a good idea to invest in that body temperature checking gauge that we're seeing restaurants use.

This will probably be made mandatory at all housing society entrances.

Originally Posted by ObsessedByFIAT

Now, a couple of days back was blessed with my second kid.

Congratulations! The child will definitely have a good story to tell friends when he grows

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Prologue: This thread isn't for value judgments - its a practical approach for those who wish to get work done from their day maids in the most safe manner. This isn't a debate thread.

A great thread phamilyman. I hope people discuss constructive as well as critical points here, rather than arguing for the sake of an argument. My father is 72 and mother 67. I have a 3 year old brat also in the house. Ours is not an apartment but a house with 2 entrances. Since the beginning of lockdown, side entrance is used by the maid and we use the main entrance if I have to go out for getting any grocery etc.

We had 2 maids working, number 1 for cooking and utensils, and number 2 for cleaning and mopping. The husband of number 2 maid also works at our clinic. Just at start of lockdown, he suffered a whiplash injury due to fall so 2nd one was asked to take care of him. She is at home and her work is being shared between self and my wife. The number 1 maid comes for lunch and dinner, breakfast is our domain.

Once she enters, she washes her hands and gets about cleaning the utensils. Later she cooks and leaves. She puts on the mask always but we don't put mask inside house even when she is around. Her work area is place where she cleans utensils and the kitchen. During her period of stay, we avoid going into the kitchen or near her. As of now, this is how it's going on. Let's see how things work out later.

[V.Narayan]

Wow. I can't believe we have this thread. Most members are employees somewhere, Let's assume your employer is discussing and planning how to make his/her office/factory safe from you. Clearly feudal India is alive and well.

Our maid, drivers and gardner have returned. I saw no reason for any precaution other than a good rinse of hands with soap as soon as they enter the house which by the way is now the rule for all family members.

The chances that we the so called upper classes are an asymptomatic carrier is as high as our domestic help being one.

I am sure this point of view of mine is not going to find favour with most on this thread.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Clearly feudal India is alive and well.

I am sure this point of view of mine is not going to find favour with most on this thread.

Has found favour with me at least. Appreciate your candour. Another fact I did not disclose earlier is that my maid's husband is with the KA State Reserve Police (KSRP) and on COVID-19 duty.

I can live with the risk given I am going to office 3 days a week.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by bblost

I don't think Covid cares about your washing and rinse protocol.

Comparing a non-living item like paint with virus is stretching a bit far. The video captures the extent of spread but not the intensity, which would far less for virus.

The paint experiment is done at the buffet of a large social gathering, without taking any precautions. In fact in the video, washing hands mid-way during the buffet cut down the risk to negligible.

In this thread, we are talking about adopting safe practices to minimize the exposure to the virus and it is to ensure the safety of both parties, employers & employees.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Let's assume your employer is discussing and planning how to make his/her office/factory safe from you.

I would wish the employers consider all the safety possibilities and ensure the facility has adequate hand-wash, sanitizer, disinfectants, masks so that the place is safe for both parties.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

I'm not sure how badly you need a household help / maid, I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere, fact is, if your maid is infected, carrying infection, there are still chances he/she might pass it on to someone else in your home, despite all these precautions. If they are asymptomatic, then it is a bigger problem.

After all, there is a good reason why doctors advise such people to be isolated. And when this person does household chores, then the risk increases. A workflow should ideally also have some kind of monitoring mechanism to see if the guidelines are being followed. Do you believe that people follow these? I do not, unfortunately.

If you have decided to allow the maid home, then you have opened a source of likely infection. The only fool proof way to avoid this (at-least at home) is by becoming "atma-nirbhar" till the time this problem subsides.

It is a matter of personal choice, what gives you more peace:

1. No maid, all work done by family members.
2. Maid, all work done by maid controlled by family members.

Spike

[phamilyman]

Sorry for the brevity this time around. I invested two hours in a reply only for my son to shut the browser down and it was lost.

For the last time, here's the context:
Why do this?
I want maids nationwide to be able to come to work in a manner safe for THEM and US! This is not the thread for DIY dishwasher solution discussion.

Crores of informal sector jobs hang in the balance as everyone views everyone with suspicion and no one wants COVID with their coffee.

The nation's social sanity and law & order is at stake.

Plus, I would request dissenting voices to recognize that others have a need to do the best they feel most comfortable doing.

I am humbly affecting my corner of the universe and in no way promoting this as the one way for everyone. I am saying let me just discuss this with other like minded OCD process students, designers & operators. Peace. May a thousand flowers bloom!

What's the underlying science + design principles:
COVID spreads primarily through aerosol and infected surfaces.
Attachment 2008591



I am saying let's #minimize each:
1. Aerosol:
A. Masks - both, maid and us. We gave 3 washable masks to the maid and give her a fresh surgical mask everyday. 8 hours of cleaning is super tiring!
B. Reduction in manual labor (standing mop vs normal pocha)
C. We stay 5m+ away from maids at all times, minimize proximity.

2. Surfaces:
A. Maid only touches surfaces that get sanitized in the process or don't matter (floor). e.g Roti cooking is okay since the tava / flame will kill the virus which dies in 5 min at 70C. Maid won't make salad for us or cut any vegetables which will not be cooked till we are vaccinated.
Washing utensils is okay because soap kills the virus. She doesn't put the dry utensils in the cupboards. WE do that.
B. Door knobs are sanitized by us once she goes.
C. Remove tasks involving surfaces that are touched by us but can't be sanitized
D. If you're in high risk, the cook lightly soaps/rinses utensils / stove she will cook with - so that she cannot get it from you

I just saw CDC's latest guidelines which are on the same path.

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

A great thread phamilyman. I hope people discuss constructive as well as critical points here, rather than arguing for the sake of an argument.

Coming from an experienced doctor with almost 2 decades (if I recall) of experience, I am grateful for your endorsement for this thread.

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

Once she enters, she washes her hands and gets about cleaning the utensils. Later she cooks and leaves. She puts on the mask always but we don't put mask inside house even when she is around. Her work area is place where she cleans utensils and the kitchen. During her period of stay, we avoid going into the kitchen or near her. As of now, this is how it's going on. Let's see how things work out later.

Please don't mind - but why not wear masks inside the house when the maid is there. Given you're a doctor - you could still spread it to your maids, no?

Curious - what do you think about the distinction I made - between contact which is sanitized automatically due to the process vs those which aren't.

Originally Posted by GTO

I think the points in the opening post are useful, also for other visitors. As an example, if there is a big plumbing problem in my house, I will have to call a plumber.

@ Phamilyman: might also be a good idea to invest in that body temperature checking gauge that we're seeing restaurants use.

Thanks. Our society put that in place!

Originally Posted by kiku007

Instead of having them sweep/mop, clean stuff swiftly (with questionable effectiveness) daily, you can consider having them visit every week or fortnight to do a proper cleaning/deep cleaning for 1-2 hours.

This can be arranged to be done when you aren't home and it'll be even better to reduce your paranoia.

Disagree vehemently.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...cid=mm6914e1_x found that it can spread through simply sitting on the same seat.

So yes, please feel free to do that for yourself - do note that that proper deep cleaning means regular maids will lose their jobs - that is my primary goal here.

I do not even trust my neighbor's child! We spray the sofa and table that sit and drink water at, while playing NERF in the house wearing masks. They may still remove masks while we're not around, but I do the best I can.

Originally Posted by kiku007

A dishwasher is a great investment which needs a lot of convincing to be brought into a home in India.

We sail in the same boat, bro!
As a career consultant I have reconciled myself to only evaluating decisions on which i am empowered. That is permanently out of scope till the house is renovated.

Originally Posted by dkaile

Please stop living in so much fear.

Maalik, good to read from you. I am merely saying I want a re-engineered process in my household with details validated by this awesome pool of BHPians who agree- everyone is free to do what they want sir.

I am not you. You are not me (with folded hands).

Originally Posted by am1m

Most of us started carrying sanitizer and started using that. No more upset stomachs no matter where we packed food from or what we ate.

TFS what an anecdote!
Now please re-read what I wrote in #minimize above

Originally Posted by itwasntme

In fact the awareness is now such that our maid asked us if she should be worried as we are going into work. I seriously could not lie to her and told her the truth. She calmly accepted it and asked us to be careful.

Beg to differ - this is only an extension of social distancing and staggered timings. This is breaking the chain in the household. When you take precautions at work - why not change the maid's workflow - right now what I suggest makes it safer for her as well.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

All that's being suggested in this thread isn't workable on a daily basis in our house.

let's make peace with that and try to delay it as much as possible.


The maid now comes daily. A few precautions that we keep repeating to her when outside- stress the importance of wearing masks, diligently washing hands at every point; limiting travel, social interactions and public places to the max possible.

To each their own - but why don't you explain the #minimize points above to your maid and see which of those would be natural / easy to do for her?

After seeing my maid pick up new ways of working this week, I dare say many of us underestimate the power of motivated maids driven by self-preservation interest!

Originally Posted by Miyata

I am sure you'd be very well aware, doesn't hurt to remind ourselves though - Be very cautious with UV Lamps/Wands

Thank you - my basic equipment (2.5k only) is in place. Here's the setup by outofthebox. I am trying to source a pressure switch + timed socket so that the sanitization chamber auto shuts off and any inadvertent opening of the cupboard switches off the UV lamp

Originally Posted by bblost

I don't think Covid cares about your washing and rinse protocol.

If the maid is an asymptomatic carrier, all the best.

msdivy has already answered your points.

What if we made a video where the initial person washed their hands thoroughly eliminating ALL traces of that UV gunk?

What would happen? NOTHING.
Please scroll back up to #minimize and 2.A washing utensils example and tell me why that doesnt work.

I'm waiting for a counter, but focused on the precautions so many of us outlined - not on the general ease of spreading of one of the most contagious virus we have all seen. That's not the point in discussion.

I would be grateful for debunking the above precautions - I really would.

Originally Posted by AZT

Off topic but this is surprising. I was under the impression almost everyone is paying their maid as this is no fault of theirs. Genuinely curious if this figure of approx 50% not paying holds true for the masses.

Sorry - just to be clear - for the 5 families where my maid works - only 2 had paid her fully and called her back. Others deducted some part, and that one genius didnt pay - I know because my wife went around collecting her payment because the maid wasn't allowed in to even collect her dues.

The more privately I share some screenshots on whatsapp, the more I hear in 1-1 conversations. No one will come and rat on their neighbor openly. Apartment whatsapp groups where families publicly confirm payment to maids have been the #1 reason many maids got paid - because no crorepati wanted to look cheap in front of their neighbors.

Forget that, how many folks with 24 hour maids are paying overtime / extra salary because they are now doing full maid + cook + dusting + kid help vs only dusting + kid help. So many maids are working 14-18 hours with more work and they cannot even quit. That's the silent inequity no one will talk about. I know only ONE family that is paying more post-covid to their 24 hour maid besides paying the maid who is not coming!

Originally Posted by AZT

This is being unfair to the OP. He may not be a doctor but is trying his best to keep himself safe. I agree he is being a bit paranoid but we do not know his situation, maybe he is old or has seniors / infants in his house hence being extra cautious.

Its just me/wife/son - I would like to think I am slightly immuno-compromised given a decade long weakness against certain viruses, but mostly my wife thinks I am a hypochondriac

Originally Posted by AZT

Best thing is to take precautions and start meeting people eventually.

Yes - this is like saying, take every hill curve at 80% of the speed you would normally be comfortable with because you have no idea if there's a moron bearing down on you from the wrong side (Bitter experience with Myles Cars - An accident & the ensuing nightmare).

Originally Posted by AZT

This will probably be made mandatory at all housing society entrances.

Yep. That and sanitizer. EVEN for residents. Residents are more likely to suffer normalcy bias, wear the mask around their neck and forget to sanitize.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Wow. I can't believe we have this thread. Most members are employees somewhere, Let's assume your employer is discussing and planning how to make his/her office/factory safe from you. Clearly feudal India is alive and well.

Our maid, drivers and gardner have returned. I saw no reason for any precaution other than a good rinse of hands with soap as soon as they enter the house which by the way is now the rule for all family members.

The chances that we the so called upper classes are an asymptomatic carrier is as high as our domestic help being one.

I am sure this point of view of mine is not going to find favour with most on this thread.

Sir,
hope it is clear now - this thread is no different from aviation safety - about process perfection - doesn't the aviation industry work on process? None of that process obsession means it treats any process participants as untrustworthy or less than equal. This is a HUMANE post, not a feudal post (please see my q to BoneCollector too).

I introduced sanitizers at my office desk for any of my colleagues to use, nearly 2 weeks before my office did so, ubiquitiously.

My process thought is to minimize any infection risk, BOTH ways.

I am very curious to hear the scientific basis for your conclusion in bold above.

Originally Posted by msdivy

Comparing a non-living item like paint with virus is stretching a bit far. The video captures the extent of spread but not the intensity, which would far less for virus.

The paint experiment is done at the buffet of a large social gathering, without taking any precautions. In fact in the video, washing hands mid-way during the buffet cut down the risk to negligible.

In this thread, we are talking about adopting safe practices to minimize the exposure to the virus and it is to ensure the safety of both parties, employers & employees.

You answered it better than I could. Thanks.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

A workflow should ideally also have some kind of monitoring mechanism to see if the guidelines are being followed. Do you believe that people follow these? I do not, unfortunately.

Ah yes, that's the other source of my confidence: my wife who has the ability to lightly yet firmly monitor these processes without skipping a heartbeat. Maybe our maid(s) are better equipped for such processes vs the average because they would have otherwise been fired long back if they did not meet my wife's exacting standards.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Sorry for the brevity this time around. I invested two hours in a reply only for my son to shut the browser down and it was lost.

That was no accident! You know where your attention was required!

Originally Posted by phamilyman

For the last time, here's the context:
Why do this?

You'll be beating a dead horse trying to explain that to everyone. There is a popular quotation in Sanskrit - "Munde munde matir bhinaa" - "Many Heads, Many Views." Some judgmental, some objective, some caring and concerned, others derisive and pointless,...There is no stopping or controlling them. Let them coexist!

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

I am not you. You are not me.

I don't disagree with you.

But let's analyse a Case Scenario - a covid asymptomatic patient spits. A fly sits on that spit. How will you stop that fly from entering your house or interact with your environment?

Take precautions but I see no reason to live in so much fear.

Cheers...