[phamilyman]

Prologue: This thread isn't for value judgments - its a practical approach for those who wish to get work done from their day maids in the most safe manner. This isn't a debate thread. Yes, I know indoor within-family transmission accounted for 80% odd cases in China.

With Corona not going away soon - this is about developing corona-proof Standard Operating Procedures for housework by a non-family member.

Maid Entry:

• Sanitize / wash hands. Feet can be spray sanitized for the paranoid folks. Ideally give them good body lotion for them to use.
• ALL residents must wear masks when the maid is around.
• Open as many windows as possible.

A. Maid washes utensils with gloves only and puts them to dry. Residents put them back in the cupboard themselves.
B. Mopping in the house should ideally be using the standing mop which is spray sterilized after use. If s/he exerts lesser, less viruses are exhaled. Korean experience taught us that high intensity effort = high COVID transmission.
Consider sanitizing all door knobs after she’s done her job.
C. S/he must cook food with minimum touching. Storage should be done by resident e.g Rotis should be handled using tongs (chimta). Sabzi should be left in the cooker or kadhai
Ideally the resident must put rotis or sabzi in the casserole themselves.
D. If one insists the maid puts the food into casseroles then one should gently sanitize the casserole using wipes after the cook puts roti or sabzi inside it.
E. No sanitizer use while the flame is on. No flame to be started till 3 min after sanitizer use.

My rationale for this SOP – basically both tasks are self-sterilized upon completion:
a. Utensils- because they were washed with soap
b. Food because it is cooked at high heat. We make our salads ourselves.

Any further tasks – such as putting dry utensils back in cupboard, or putting food in fridge, is our job. That’s where there is non-self-sanitizing contact.

PS: This SOP is humane and considers that either the resident or maid could be infected and basically minimizes any un-sanitized contact.

[roy_libran]

Oh Damn Hits, you forgot to mention checking the maids status on Aarogya Setu and making sure she is updating the self-assessment every single day!

Originally Posted by turbo

Either don't let them in, at all, or let them do their thing.

Exactly, what we are doing. With 2 Octogenarians in the household we have chosen to reduce daily chores to bare minimum and implemented a division of household work amongst the remaining members. This, while we continue to pay our maid's salary via Paytm and hope some day it'll be safe to allow her to return to work.

[turbo]

IF you have to trust someone, trust them fully, else dont trust them at all.
This is, with all due respect, utterly pointless.
Either dont let them in, at all, or let them do their thing.

[am1m]

Not finding any fault with any protocol, but in time, how many of us can continue to follow such things effectively/strictly? And for how long?

When this lockdown started, my neighbor was extremely conscientious about sanitizing his car every time he got back from work (he continued to go in to work during the initial part of the lockdown because he worked for one of the defense research labs nearby and so was exempt from the restrictions). I knew he was disinfecting his car because he used to park it in front of my house, due to the space constraint at his house. First couple of days, the process took about two hours, pretty soon it came down to less than 20 mins. Needless to say, he's not parking in front of our place anymore.

I'm certainly NOT saying we should become careless. But since we're going to have to live with the risk of contracting the virus for a long time (most optimistic scenarios for a vaccine are what, mid-2021?), I don't really see us realistically doing anything beyond basic hygiene practices. Wash hands before eating or handling food, avoid crowds, avoid anyone who is visibly ill, and please stay home if you are ill. Everything else, yes we can start doing with the best of intentions, but eventually will become rituals and like most rituals will give us peace of mind, but will not really have much influence on external events.

That's just the way I'm going to be dealing with this going forward.

[phamilyman]

Gents,

I would appreciate if you have any operational input in the process.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Oh Damn Hits, you forgot to mention checking the maids status on Aarogya Setu and making sure she is updating the self-assessment every single day!

Frivolous digs on Aarogya Setu aside - our society has already enforced that as a criteria for entry. Happy to discuss that in DM.

Originally Posted by turbo

IF you have to trust someone, trust them fully, else dont trust them at all.
This is, with all due respect, utterly pointless.
Either dont let them in, at all, or let them do their thing.

Turbo,

Like I said, this thread exists for one reason - to find out operational solutions. Not to indulge in unhelpful moral debates. If you have nothing helpful to add to this thread, you can skip it.

But let me lay down the context one last time.

This is NOT about trust - it is about building operating procedures that factor in the best current understanding of COVID. Even doctors had to re-examine their protocols when COVID happened - so why shouldn't the rest of us?

It is naive to assume that fully trusting a maid to operate like s/he has always operated will be good enough to stop COVID. I doubt they are aware of the relation of transmission with intensity of breathing. COVID spread has nothing to do with trust, only science.

There is value in a considered approach that minimizes the risk at every stage. Else, while some of us kind folks like you, me and Roy will continue paying maids, enough will soon stop paying (I know many such cases in my society) which will exacerbate the migrant crisis besides creating avoidable stress in our lives.

If you choose to post on this thread, please help. I'm happy to receive moral gyan in DM - let's keep this thread noise free and on point.

Please understand such processes are of use even to those in green zones. COVID neither gives warnings and often, not even symptoms. Abundant Precaution is all I am seeking to design here.

Hoping for actionable process inputs here. Thanks in advance.

[Eddy]

As environment unfriendly as it is, I will ask the domestic help to wear disposable gloves each time she enters the house. My experience with them is that they will not follow protocols set like not touching food etc. Practically impossible. So gloves it will have to be.

Also, our apartments have two lifts in each tower. One of them is now exclusively for residents and the other one for workers.

Also you've got to figure out what to do with the stuff they bring along. Purse, umbrella, Icard, mobile phones etc. Unfair to expect them to leave everything outside, so maybe in a sunny balcony? That means changing the sop of my maid - listen to music on headphones while doing the dishes.

There is only so much that you can do.

PS: We have decided to be maid free for another month if possible.

[fhdowntheline]

In my humble opinion, its time for people in middle-upper segment to look at DIY solutions. In a long term scenario where a working family will likely spend at least 50 % of their time at home in a week, household chores will be doable for the likes of those below 55 years. For senior citizens, yes, it could be an issue.

[RYP]

This is morale trauma for the maid IMHO. No point doing all this orchestra for a virus which is contagious to the point where doctors wearing all sort of medical grade suits & N95 masks are getting infected.

There's a scene in Hurt Locker where Jeremy Renner, a bomb diffuser, after seeing a large crate full of explosives understands that the safety gear he's wearing ain't gonna make any difference in case the bomb explodes and may only restrict his freedom of movements, throws them away and continues to diffuse the bomb wearing only his vest.

Just don't be hypocritic towards the maid, she doesn't need to touch our dirty dishes and risk herself to contract this damn virus. This must not be brushed aside in the name of 'VALUE JUDGEMENT'. Either isolate forever and Aatma Nirbhar your way out or Accept the risk and move on.

[jkrishnakj]

Here is what is followed at my place. 1. Separate soap for the house help. She has to wash hands thoroughly the moment she gets in. 2. Mask is always on for her 3. If we need to move the house hold items a bit so that the mop or broom reaches some corners, it is done by family members. 4. Wash vessels and leave in the place near the sink. We place the washed vessels into the cabinets. 5. The maid leaves her stuff in one of our balconies. 6. As much as possible we leave her alone to finish her work.

I believe that the way we worry about the maid infecting us, they must be mighty worried too of catching an infection from one of the households.

Working well so far. Hopefully normalcy prevails soon.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by Eddy

As environment unfriendly as it is, I will ask the domestic help to wear disposable gloves each time she enters the house. My experience with them is that they will not follow protocols set like not touching food etc. Practically impossible. So gloves it will have to be.

Also, our apartments have two lifts in each tower. One of them is now exclusively for residents and the other one for workers.

Also you've got to figure out what to do with the stuff they bring along. Purse, umbrella, Icard, mobile phones etc. Unfair to expect them to leave everything outside, so maybe in a sunny balcony? That means changing the sop of my maid - listen to music on headphones while doing the dishes.

There is only so much that you can do.

PS: We have decided to me maid free for another month if possible.

Thanks.
My maid's stuff - she keeps it in one corner. We sanitize that space as well.

Yes, we have washable gloves though others are using nitrile or hair color wala gloves as well.

The idea is to set clear processes they can follow on muscle memory with least supervision.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

In my humble opinion, its time for people in middle-upper segment to look at DIY solutions. In a long term scenario where a working family will likely spend at least 50 % of their time at home in a week, household chores will be doable for the likes of those below 55 years. For senior citizens, yes, it could be an issue.

FHDTL,
Yes - but maybe you can start a DIY / home gadget thread. Please keep these discussions separate - my humble request for you. Let the signal noise ratio on each thread be perfect.

My ideal submission to the higher home authorities was for TWO dishwashers so that we do away with putting cutlery in any cupboard, and sweeping and mopping robots. That got shot down.

Hence, this thread.

EDIT - adding responses.

Originally Posted by RYP

This is morale trauma for the maid IMHO. No point doing all this orchestra for a virus which is contagious to the point where doctors wearing all sort of medical grade suits & N95 masks are getting infected.

Sorry infection risk is an outcome where we need to understand viral load, tenure of exposure versus barriers. Please do not compare things so wildly out of context.

As for morale trauma, Please don't project your beliefs onto my maid or me. Please. We were one of only two of five families in my society who had been paying our maid fully besides offering ration. We even offered to buy her a Jio phone since Aarogya Setu was made compulsory while other cheapskate families called her 4 hours after entry was opened saying "now that you have entered, come and take your March salary and join work tomorrow" (so that they wouldn't need to contribute to her phone purchase). She has been given for exclusive use, a hand soap and cream better than I do! I give her a new mask every third day (as I do with my tower guards and housekeeping staff, over and above what our RWA does)

Building such SOPs is no different from garbage segregation / recycling initiatives - maids are just as smart as us. We took the time to walk her through the entire rationale and how it safeguards everyone's health and now she does it without fuss. Again, unnecessary assumptions solve nothing when you don't know the poster. Let's focus on the ask at hand?

Originally Posted by RYP

There's a scene in Hurt Locker where Jeremy Renner, a bomb diffuser, after seeing a large crate full of explosives understands that the safety gear he's wearing ain't gonna make any difference in case the bomb explodes and may only restrict his freedom of movements, throws them away and continues to diffuse the bomb wearing only his vest.

Out of context metaphors do not add a grain of value to this discussion. If you do not have anything helpful to contribute to a thread, you can always ignore it, you know?

Originally Posted by RYP

Just don't be hypocritic towards the maid, she doesn't need to touch our dirty dishes and risk herself to contract this damn virus. This must not be brushed aside in the name of 'VALUE JUDGEMENT'. Either Isolate forever and be Aatma Nirbhar your way out or Accept the risk and move on.

The undeserved derision in your words is caustic and unhelpful - think before you use harsh words without evidence. Please show me HOW she can get infected in the way we have outlined. HOW?

Like I said, this is not a thread for general moral debates - happy to get that gyan on DM. Let's keep this thread focused on operational solutions for those who want them.

This is a subset of the larger problem society faces - we need workflows to engage positively with the world. Sit too long at home and then there's not much of an economy left to save. But let's take that on the bigger thread, ok? https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...us-thread.html (The Coronavirus Thread)

Originally Posted by jkrishnakj

Here is what is followed at my place. 1. Separate soap for the house help. She has to wash hands thoroughly the moment she gets in. 2. Mask is always on for her 3. If we need to move the house hold items a bit so that the mop or broom reaches some corners, it is done by family members. 4. Wash vessels and leave in the place near the sink. We place the washed vessels into the cabinets. 5. The maid leaves her stuff in one of our balconies. 6. As much as possible we leave her alone to finish her work.

I believe that the way we worry about the maid infecting us, they must be mighty worried too of catching an infection from one of the households.

Working well so far. Hopefully normalcy prevails soon.

Many many thanks for such a constructive post. We are clearly operating on similar lines mate, many thanks.

The point with additional emphasis above is key. We educated our maid how our process keeps her healthy as well.

[v1p3r]

I admire your intent. In reality, as someone pointed out using their neighbour's car as an example, this will wear off soon.

Besides, if you're standing around waiting for your cook to make a roti before you toss it in a casserole, you're essentially wasting time. The point of having domestic help is that you do other things instead.

[msdivy]

From a COVID-19 positive person, to get infected, sufficient virus load had to enter the body via mouth, nose.

My simple solution:
1) Open the windows in all the rooms the helper has to work.
2) Helper has to wash hands and then wear mask.
3) Let the helper work alone. If possible, nobody should be there in the room.
4) If someone needs to there with the helper, they have to wear mask and maintain 1 metre distance. In case close proximity is required, it shouldn't be more the few seconds.
5) After the work is done, thank the helper and switch on the fan with Windows still open, for few minutes.

If the helper is cooking, you might use different sets of serving cloth & spoon than those used by the cook.

This should be sufficient.

[theMandarin]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Aarogya Setu - our society has already enforced that as a criteria for entry.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

We even offered to buy her a Jio phone since Aarogya Setu was made compulsory.

Speaking strictly in terms of defining an SOP, do you envision this as a short term requirement or something standard for the foreseeable future?

How does it work out while switching maids/house-hold workers and by extension for specialized short term jobs such as services of a plumber/carpenter/electrician etc.

[RYP]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

As for morale trauma, Please don't project your beliefs onto my maid or me. Please. We were one of only two of five families in my society who had been paying our maid fully besides offering ration

Appreciate the action

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Sorry infection risk is an outcome where we need to understand viral load, tenure of exposure versus barriers. Please do not compare things so wildly out of context.

Not out of context, just an index to compare upon

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Out of context metaphors do not add a grain of value to this discussion. If you do not have anything helpful to contribute to a thread, you can always ignore it, you know?

Again you missed the point by a mile. It is about the MINDSET!

Originally Posted by phamilyman

The undeserved derision in your words is caustic and unhelpful - think before you use harsh words without evidence. Please show me HOW she can get infected in the way we have outlined. HOW?

Please don't get all worked up, we all here in this community vary by belief but get together by love for automobiles.

Since you want no stones unturned, I'll dig deep into some possibilities

1. How you deal with water spillage onto her clothes or herself while doing dishes?

Gloves may protect until wrist or upto elbow. Aprons don't give complete frontal protection

2. Except medical N95 masks, our regular masks are not that effective against prolonged exposure

3. There are a gazillion Microbiota in everyone, going berserk every time we move. So cooking is definitely out of equation for a maid, if safety is utmost importance.

Point here is, there are ways which we can't even comprehend can happen.

One question though,

Why not buy a dishwasher and avoid all this at the root level itself?

[itwasntme]

After reading articles like these, I really wonder if we can ever let domestic help into our house again. It's better to get them to wash hands thoroughly and wear a mask. Anything further is not maintainable in even the medium term, leave aside the long term.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/h...nfections.html

Cannot imagine how we can keep chauffeurs either. Even with all windows down, the wind flow will come back to the back seat naturally. With the windows up, it'll be a much too intimate scene. Only option is to buy an Innova or Carnival and huddle in the jump seats.