[sajanpt]

Would Great Lakes be a better choice than the baby IIMs ?

[tracerspiff]

As an IIM-A alum, I am naturally biased towards IIM A,B,C. For someone with 3 yrs exp in FMCG, IIMA would be an awesome starting point and the recruiters list has all the big names you want.

The only con I have against ISB is its HUGE batch size and 40l cost. They admit 900 people every year and they publish the placement statistics for the middle 80% . You don't know if the bottom 10% got placed or their salaries if they did get placed.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by GTO

Someone I know is facing this dilemma and asked me for advice.

Please advise on the pros & cons of ISB vs IIM. Brilliant girl, has 3-years experience at a major FMCG firm, wants to get an MBA not just for career opportunities but also the value of education + skillset. Long term plans not clear. Might continue in corporate world, might get into entrepreneurship. No budget issues.

Question back at you / the person with this quandary. Is this a theoretical exercise or does she actually have the choice of picking one from the lot of the IIMs and ISB(s)?

For a good majority of the folks who make to the final selected few (that's less than 5% of the total pool of applicants), generally the choice is decided by the options of colleges they finally convert. A very very limited few convert all/multiple IIMs, ISB, XL, etc. and then have the luxury to pick one.

If theoretical, I'd say all the last 3 pages are good fodder to read but she needs to focus more on the different entrance exams and relevant GD/PI processes and then see how it goes. Or has she already converted multiple colleges?

[low_rider]

My 2 cents. MBA is all about having a good career. Hence, placements are the only thing that matters in long run.

A good placement is a sort of springboard. For most of the students, the initial placement makes or breaks the career path. Although there may be few inspiring stories about people who were initially on a poor career path but got on a fast track later, however, it is more of an exception. You just cannot enter Investment Banking or a Marketing profile in FMCG mid way into your career. More or less for consulting. Or for that matter leadership profiles like TAS.

IIM-A gets all the "dream" companies and profiles across all sectors and manages to place its entire batch and that too in good profiles. With the batch size of ISB , the placement of entire batch gets tough, especially for the bottom third.

Coming to curricula, let's get real. Institutes are for putting a brand on your CV. For knowledge, there are wide variety of open courseware and lectures form leading B-schools and tech schools of the world. You don't even need an admission into any B-school to acquire knowledge. Knowledge is free in today's digital world. Institute's brand is what you pay for.

Also, when the recruiters shortlist your CV during your entire career, the Institute brand is one of the key decision factor. Does any recruiter think that Mr. XXX taught Marketing in IIM-A in 2008 and Mr. ZZZ taught Marketing in ISB in 2008, and Mr. ZZZ was better so I will shortlist the guy from ISB?

In the long term only the brand matters.

[Grand Vitesse]

If an applicant is fresh out of college or has <3 years of work-ex, and wants to build a future in India, IIMA/B/C's 2 year MBA programs are generally suggested. However, if your work ex is greater than 3 or 4 years the chances of getting in to IIMA/B/C’s 2-year MBA reduces drastically (pls. confirm this). Then, the best option is ISB's PGP. ISB's PGP is generally ranked better than the EPGP of IIMB or the PGPX of IIMA (ISB’s PGP and IIM’s non-2 year MBA programs ask for GMAT score). Since future plans - e.g. geography - are not set in stone, she is brilliant and has work-ex of about 3 years the best bet would be to go for European schools (such as LBS, INSEAD & IMD-Laussane) or target the top schools in USA. The alum network/repute of such schools often transcend national boundaries! However, the corona pandemic, ensuing restrictions wrt travel and curtailed class room experience mean that one has to choose the school carefully to get the best experience one wants (we are still in the middle of a pandemic and don’t know for sure when the normal will be restored!). Some US based schools didn’t handle corona well. INSEAD and IMD handled corona better than IIMB for instance.

When FT publishes its rankings and places ISB’s ‘MBA’ over IIMB’s MBA (or the other way round... as was the case last year), they are actually comparing ISB's PGP to the one-year MBA for Executives (different from the 'executive MBA' -usually a weekend affair!) being offered by IIMB (i.e. the EPGP of IIMB) /IIMA/C. At least FT’s ranking, IIRC, do not compare ISB’s PGP to 2-year MBA of IIMA/B/C’s.

Globally, two year IIMA/B/C MBA degrees are actually clubbed alongside the Masters in Management degree (e.g the MiM of St. Gallen or HEC Paris) and not the global MBAs for the reason that they do not stipulate any work-ex requirements. In India such a distinct is hardly made. Obviously due to many reasons (possibly inherent capability/drive of the IIM’s 2-yr MBA’s participants, strength of their alum network, brand value etc), the students of these 2-year courses end up populating the C-suites in India and elsewhere. In a few cases, after putting in a few years of work, the students of IIMA/B/C end up doing a second MBA (note: not executive MBA) from more reputed global schools such as IMD.

ISB is relatively young (in comparison to IIMs ABC) and the culture I hear is more open. Members have already commented about ISB PGP’s curriculum, faculty, ginormous class size, campuses etc. It is also a one year course which makes that much more rigorous than a 2-year MBA. So, it all depends on what the goals are (geography, industry, role, visa restrictions etc... stated in no particular order).

It is also better to choose the flagship course of a given school as the school is more invested in such courses. I am sure that IIMA’s MBA is more valuable then IIMA’s PGPX. St. Gallen’s MiM is ranked number one in the world and their MBA sucks!

[agelesstravelle]

I am from IIM B, here is some information I can add -

1. MBA is a professional course and it should be done to give a boost to the career. This is why brand name and network matter more than the cases taught in the college. Hardly anyone gets into a profile just after MBA where he/she immediately works like CEO as explained in those case studies taught there. Both IIM and ISB provides strong networks and one has to make effort to be in that network. I haven't seen many attending Alumni meets after graduation and they eventually lose the network advantage.

2. In India, MBA recruitment preferences are different from rest of the western world. Top FMCG, investment banking, top 4 consulting firms want to hire student with 0-2 years of experience. That is what they pick from top IIMs in general.

If anyone is looking to get into these companies with 3-5 years of experience before MBA. It is better to select ISB or similar brand because it provides so called advantage of being in the "preferred lot".

The placement scenario isn't very different for people with 6-10 years of experience in IIM or ISB. ISB may have a little better edge here.

3. Some people do MBA only for learning and entrepreneurship. It is surely a good once in a life learning experience if they can afford. I think they would enjoy the learning and experience in any of the top colleges.

From my personal experience, IIM A/B/C still have better brand reputation and recall in corporate and public in general. ISB continues to be a second option.

[sridharj77]

I participated in a few "Industry outreach" programs from ISB from my company. The stated objective was for PhD students and ISB researchers to present their findings and seek feedback from the Industry on relevance, accuracy and practicality.

However, after attending about 6-8 of them, we have stopped entertaining those requests. My observations:

1. The researchers and even the Dean seem less interested in feedback - they just want to "tick the box". In a few cases, we (from multiple companies across IT, manufacturing, Pharma etc) said the hypothesis, the data collected/filtered and the assumptions had glaring holes in them. The proposed solutions seem to have been designed first and then the problem statement + data manipulated to arrive at the pre-selected solution.

The feedback was not even considered! They just nodded their heads and didn't bother noting our suggestions. This was in the first session before lunch. After lunch, we all just sat through the various presentations without asking any questions!

2. Through the 2 days of the program, the Dean, academic-in-charge and others regularly came in to encourage us to sign up for the Masters and PhD programs - with our company sponsorship. Apparently, company sponsorships are more prestigious than individual signups

3. The Program syllabus, teaching and assignments seem to have been designed not to help people learn about the leading management theories, case studies, but more to appear elite! That is the sense I got from talking to a few MBA students who were former colleagues.

I would recommend an IIM any day compared to ISB.

[AutoConsultant]

Originally Posted by GTO

Please advise on the pros & cons of ISB vs IIM. Brilliant girl, has 3-years experience at a major FMCG firm, wants to get an MBA not just for career opportunities but also the value of education + skillset. Long term plans not clear. Might continue in corporate world, might get into entrepreneurship. No budget issues.

With 3 years of work-ex, I would recommend going for an IIM (A,B or C only) as the average work-ex of an ISB candidate is slightly upwards of 5 years.

I myself have passed out from IIM C and have a very close friend who passed out from ISB :-

ISB : Based on my understanding, ISB is for someone who already has substantial amount of expertise in a particular field and is going for a masters to sharpen their management/business understanding skills. It's an 11-month course which includes 1-2 months of internship, so the education/learning part would be quite fast paced

IIM : I feel IIMs are for the average folk like me who are unclear about what to do in life the curriculum starts at a very basic level and you are exposed to multiple aspects of management studies. You can then decide for yourself which direction you would like to go in.

In terms of alumni network, IIMs A,B and C are slightly better than ISB. Even in terms of placements you get better options in IIMs. So if she is slightly unsure about what she wants to do in the future (but plans to stay in india, especially for the initial few years after completing the masters) then go for IIM A, B or C (in that order). However, ISB does have better global recognition than IIMs.

[AutoConsultant]

Originally Posted by tanayr

Finally, I'm going to talk about C being the so-called "Finance specialist" - the information in the above quote is heavily outdated. Not only are the specialized finance courses at C almost gone, with neither student nor professors interested in them, but ever since the 2008 bust-up, the financial sector hasn't been hiring much either, be it investment banks (early single digit recruitment per year) or others.

I have passed out from IIM C in 2018 and I can assure you, it is still the Finance Capital of the country. If you have inclination or past experience in the financial sector, your best chances of being hired by a top finance firm is at IIM C. There were a significant number of companies which only visited our campus for hiring (not even A or B).

However, it would be difficult for you if you don't have prior experience in the sector because there will be people who would either be high ranked CAs or worked with investment banks in the past.

[abhijet.sen]

Originally Posted by GTO

Someone I know is facing this dilemma and asked me for advice. I was earlier in the education industry, but my expertise was only in USA / UK schools and that too, I left the industry a decade back. Hence, thought of asking this question on the best platform I know for life in India .

Please advise on the pros & cons of ISB vs IIM. Brilliant girl, has 3-years experience at a major FMCG firm, wants to get an MBA not just for career opportunities but also the value of education + skillset. Long term plans not clear. Might continue in corporate world, might get into entrepreneurship. No budget issues.

We have a lot of talented young blood on Team-BHP, so I'm certain your answers will help hundreds of other BHPians too .

Thanks in advance!

ISB is roughly an year course and IIMs regular course is 2 years while they do have 1 year course as well. 1 year courses are more costlier than 2 year regular course. However, you start earning quicker.

IIM A/B/C trumps ISB but not by very large margin, mainly because they are in India for really long time and their alumni has reached high places. ISB has more extensive international links, which helps if one is looking at international exposure.

Big 4 and other closely followed consulting firms visit IIMs as well as ISB so not much difference here either. In fact some niche consulting firms prefer IIM A and somewhat C more than any other institute.

Having said that any of these is a good launching step, what matters more is setting up a solid network.

[vijjuvk]

It all depends on which IIM you have been shortlisted. I did my MBA from IIM Ahmedabad and it is undoubtedly the best in the country. IIM Bangalore and Calcutta and equally good. While ISB is also good, I would not opt for it if one has got admits from IIM A/B/C.

[GTO]

Thanks to the Team-BHP fan (he prefers to remain anonymous) who sent this information in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this page!

Hi GTO,

I'm from FMS and want to touch up on a perspective others haven't talked about - the kind of roles you get post graduation, which should affect your choice of campus.

Before getting into the details, I want to clarify that a B school is a gateway into the country's economy. The choice between an international or an Indian MBA must be based on your friend's choice of where she wants to work.

Marketing roles - almost all "marketing" roles offered are sales roles. For the first 2-3 years of the career, everyone is expected to work in sales and understand what will sell and what won't. Then you get the opportunity to shift to the marketing team.
Major recruiters in this space are FMCG, FMCD and some financial services firms.
From top institutes you join at the Area sales manager level, 5-6 territory sales managers report to you, who in turn manage teams of 5-6 salesmen. Terminologies might differ between companies, but your responsibility will be at a district level.
FMCG companies are notorious for placing new recruits in rural areas, often intentionally outside their home state.

Marketing companies tend to hire people with low work ex (people with families are less open to the idea of moving to an upcountry role (rural role)). Major FMCGs hire exclusively from IIMs, XLRI, FMS, MDI etc and do not offer these roles at ISB.

Finance roles - Finance roles are in 3 broad areas -
Investment banks, VCs, PE
Banking - retail, commercial, transaction etc
Corporate finance

The number of IB, PE, VC roles per year in India, can be counted with one's hands and toes. They look favourably on institute rankers and superstar candidates from top UG colleges.

Majority of these roles are Mumbai based, though some VC roles are available in Bangalore and NCR

IB roles are offered only at A B C, very few offers are made at L, FMS and XLRI

Banking roles are offered in higher numbers. Both Indian and foreign banks hire regularly. Roles offered include key account management, relationship management, product sales.

Geographically you can be posted to any zonal office, though often new recruits join the corporate head office.

Banking roles are offered both at IIMs and ISB.

Corporate finance roles are far and few compared to banking roles at IIMs; but still more roles are offered than IB/PE/VC. These roles are offered by large companies across sectors & conglomerates. All corp fin folks sit at the corporate office and have no possibility of transfers. Corp fin roles are offered at both IIMs and ISB.

Consulting roles - Management consulting roles are highly desired and actively pursued by a large portion of the batch, exit opportunities and career growth are fast tracked for consultants. Consulting isn't limited to management consulting, tech consulting and supply chain consulting are also popular. Consulting firms tend to hire people with stellar academic record, institute toppers and people with big brands (UG and work ex) on their CV.

Candidates need to be comfortable with extensive travel. Consulting firms offer these roles at both IIMs and ISB. IIMs get more offers in management consulting whereas more tech consulting offers are made at ISB.

Tech roles - ecommerce, product management, Analytics, category and vendor management roles are offered.

Apart from Analytics roles, none of the other roles require a candidate to code. All of these recruiters prefer someone with a prior tech experience. Geographically these roles tend to cluster in and around Bangalore and Hyderabad. These roles are offered aplenty at ISB. IIMs also see 1/3 of their batch placed for these roles.

Operations roles - Roles are offered in supply chain, logistics and inventory management
Candidates need 2 years work ex to apply for these roles. Majority of candidates with more than 3 years work ex, end up joining here.

Location can be pan India.

These roles are offered aplenty at ISB. These roles are offered at IIMs too.

HR - the place to join is XLRI, if not that TISS

Campus Majority of roles offered (in order)

A All
B All, lot of tech offers tend to be made
C Finance, Consulting, Operations, Tech, Marketing
ISB Consulting, Tech, Operations
L Marketing, Finance, Consulting, Operations, Tech
FMS Marketing, Consulting, Tech, Finance
XLRI HR, Marketing, Consulting, Finance
K Marketing, Consulting, Tech, Finance
MDI Consulting, Marketing, Tech, HR

That said, your friend already has 3 years of experience, by the time she joins next year, she'd have 4 years. In my opinion students with more than 3 years workex in the 2 yr MBA course have their placement options limited. Predominantly they end up joining an operations role (supply chain, inventory etc) where experienced folks are preferred. Doesn't help that marketing recruiters want younger candidates.

Your friend is at a level of work ex which is right in between what is ideal for a 2 year MBA from IIMs and the 1 year course of ISB. At the same time, the longer she spends in one industry, the harder it becomes to make a switch to another. If an industry switch is her intention, IIMs make a better case than ISB, where opportunities for shifting are very limited.

Course fee difference is immaterial in my opinion, it can easily be made up over the course of our careers.

P.S. An anecdote from where I used to work - People nod in agreement and admiration when someone goes to A or B, but when they hear "x" went to ISB, they quip in surprise "really, x got into ISB". No offence meant to anyone.

My best wishes to your friend.

[nirmaljusdoit]

If budget is not a constraint, I would suggest her to do an international course in Singapore.

It will have much more exposure on a global scale, better value and standing and being in the Singapore ecosystem is of a different level altogether.

[84.monsoon]

As an IIM Grad, I can confidently say that the value of the education you get over two years is much more than 2X the value you can get from an one year degree. The body of knowledge is very wide and you need a good amount of depth in each area to ultimately be a general manger or an entrepreneur. At IIMs, the first year really soaks you into every single area and then you are out in the real world doing a 10 week summer internship usually in another city. By the time you are back for the second year, you are much clearer what you want to focus on and you get to choose your electives accordingly. I found I was learning much faster in the second year, and my self-awareness had increased quite a lot. The clarity on what kind of job I wanted emerged only well into the second year. You can't put 10 people to work and have a baby in 1 month!

Besides, you get to know a lot of people very well and also develop some deep lifelong friendships, beyond just business networking, over the two year period. I remember I got to know about 30% of the batch very well by the end of the first year, but I knew 80% very well by the end of second year and the majority of us are still in regular touch even today.

[BackInTheFold]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

As an IIM Grad, I can confidently say that the value of the education you get over two years is much more than 2X the value you can get from an one year degree. The body of knowledge is very wide and you need a good amount of depth in each area to ultimately be a general manger or an entrepreneur. At IIMs, the first year really soaks you into every single area and then you are out in the real world doing a 10 week summer internship usually in another city. By the time you are back for the second year, you are much clearer what you want to focus on and you get to choose your electives accordingly. I found I was learning much faster in the second year, and my self-awareness had increased quite a lot. The clarity on what kind of job I wanted emerged only well into the second year. You can't put 10 people to work and have a baby in 1 month!

Besides, you get to know a lot of people very well and also develop some deep lifelong friendships, beyond just business networking, over the two year period. I remember I got to know about 30% of the batch very well by the end of the first year, but I knew 80% very well by the end of second year and the majority of us are still in regular touch even today.

I'm glad that you liked your 2 year business program. However prescribing that to be the only route to assimilate knowledge or build relationships/networks would not be entirely accurate. Simply put, increased density and intensity in a high-quality environment (faculty, coursework, motivated and accomplished peers) can compensate for duration to a great extent - akin to turbo charging.

Brushing off all 1 year programs in broad strokes would therefore not be appropriate.

At the risk of extrapolating from a sample of 1, here's my example as a counter to your world view:
- I went to a 1 year business program with no prior background in finance or strategy (tech entrepreneur before b-school). Internship was in derivatives trading at a prop desk in the US. Chose among capital markets and strategy consulting roles after business school. Ended up as a strategy consultant in London. Given my prior background, it's safe to say that the skills leading to my internship and full-time role were acquired largely from my 1 year business program
- The intense experience - travel, partying, working together etc. led to close bonds with nearly everyone in my large class (which by the way was in 2 different campuses in different continents). We remain extremely close - are godparents for classmates' children, attend weddings in faraway nooks, play poker online every month, invest in one another's ventures, shoot the breeze when people want to chat etc. We're nearing our 15 year graduation anniversary by the way.

Bottom line: choosing among 1 or 2 year business programs is a matter of preference and hopefully informed choice. It's better not to be anchored.