[Thad E Ginathom]

There are levels of fake news. First and most obvious is lies. Lies have become very much a currency of the world, and leaders such as Trump, Johnson, Putin have literally led the trend.

How do we know they are lies? Some are just blatant. Some require fact checking. Who fact-checks the fact checkers? Ouch: overthinking!

Hate speech. Even if it uses some fact-based stuff as material. Hate speech is more or less obvious.

I have no objection to the banning of lies of hate speech. Hate speech is supposed to be illegal in several countries anyway.

Then, what to do if Trump, Boris, Putin 'n'all are cynically using lies and hate speech. Should the world's media (social and others) just confine that to the vacuum, pretend it didn't even happen, never quote it, never repeat it, like not being allowed ever to use that "n-word" eve quoting someone else? No: it has to be reported.

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

People talk about Russian influence in US elections and Brexit. How does one decide if that is fake news? People talk about Hunter Biden's Ukrainian links. Now did the US benefit from UK leaving the EU. I would say that they did because Euro could have replaced the dollar at some point as the main reserve currency leading to other effects for the US economy.
Is that fake news? Remember that all people have confirmation bias. So your perception of what is fake may depend on your prior political and social experiences.

People don't just talk. Outside of social media (inside too sometimes), serious journalists and investigators do serious work and research. And then it still our decision whether to accept their conclusions or not.

When it comes to war narratives, they are inherently parochial and fake?. There is a hybrid war between NATO & Russia now. So how can you trust any of that news?

Case in point: This is an often-projected point of view. Russia v America; Russia v NATO; Russia v Europe. No: it's Russia invading Ukraine.

Sure, there is history. There is history of NATO looking, to me, as if they betrayed Ukraine by stringing them along, and then refusing. But NATO isn't fighting.

All said & done, it seems to me that China is vindicated now. China always believed that West's claims of media neutrality, adherence to free speech was fake. They feared that these elements will be weaponised and used to punish/turn the Chinese population against their government. The Russian experience proves that this is right.

That's a big conclusion to reach, some of it from shaky premises, That huge and varied thing called "The West" in such arguments knows that its media is not neutral*: It also knows that it's speech is as free as suits and no freer. No need to ask the Chinese.

Probably, the more a country shouts and sings about being The Land Of The Free, the more it isn't. <cynical-lol>

Just thoughts. I don't know how to fix the world! Just sharing ideas and opinions.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Sran

The documentary has been removed by Youtube as usual and is available on rumble. Interestingly, I was not able to play the video on chrome on my laptop but it was playable on Firefox with same add-ons and extensions. It seems that the thought police Google doesn't want anyone to watch the documentary even on it's browser(chrome is used by 87% of users in India and 67% worldwide). Do check on your browsers as I have used 2 laptops to determine this using different ip addresses.

Attaching pic: Left is from firefox and right is from chrome.

This opens on my chrome. Perhaps, try cleaning your cache?

[bejoy]

RT is back on the DTH platform, at least on Videocon D2h. It disappeared a couple of weeks ago and is available from yesterday. Looks like the Indian provider switched the satellite source feed to a neutral entity.

[SnS_12]

In its attempt to get more Oil production Joe got played and ended up rubbing both Saudi and Iran on the wrong side.

And now they have an Iran problem too with the nuclear deal talks off the table.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Salutation to bravery, with a touch of humour too. Check out the Ukrainian F-yourself postage stamp design...

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

And now they have an Iran problem too with the nuclear deal talks off the table.

Before Russia and Iran, North Korea conducted several missile tests with the recent one under the guise of satellite on March 5:





China sent Reconnaissance Balloons over Taiwan and has warned the US of Military Conflict over supporting Taiwan:




Looking at the developments, the position of the US looks like this:

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

I think the biggest question is - How/Who decides what is fake news? Is selective reporting of news fake news? Is attributing objectives to leaders who have not explicitly articulated their objectives? Is publishing news that is given by goverments which is proved to be false later categorised as fake news?

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

There are levels of fake news. First and most obvious is lies. Lies have become very much a currency of the world, and leaders such as Trump, Johnson, Putin have literally led the trend.

My opinion is we have to just understand and be conscious by separating statecraft (Narratives) and normal information dissemination by media on day to day life. Both are intertwined as well disjointed.

First as part of statecraft
I think this business of (Dis)information discourse as part of war exists even in mythology and epics. In Mahabharatha, the removal of Dhronacharya from war front when Krishna,the Machiavelli asked Dharma to tell 'Ashwathama' is dead but in reality it is not Dhrona's son but elephant in the same name. Dhronacharya went into grief thinking it is his son and withdrew from battlefront. Objective achieved.

This information discourse happens all the times irrespective of peace or war and underlying this is the narrative built to suit the agenda of countries. It was, is and will be done irrespective of friends or foes. This is part of statecraft and goes beyond leaders/individuals.

One example is the COVID: How Indian positive narrative was crushed by couple of editorials in the Down South and Far West? It is not targeted against Indian domestic audience but international audience to remind about India. The ever lasting images that comes to common public in the west when one can think of India and COVID is burning pyres and floating corpses. No amount of vaccination success can erase it.

At the same time, how many of us remember the COVID in USA? The first image that comes to mind is crazy Anti-vaxxers and Trump who were running down that country. This is again the narrative that was possibly built by other countries but aided by the American political discourse itself. Sad, but true!

If you think of COVID in Europe, the image that comes to mind is the poignant image of grandmas in late eighties waiting for hospital beds and tearful kids who could not wave goodbyes to them. This is to reinforce the welfare state image of Europe and to a certain extent discredit the healthcare system by others.

If you think of China and COVID, the image is no holds barred lock down, super big hospitals built overnight and the victory parade of doctors. I am talking only about the COVID response and not the origins. This is the reason Trump repeatedly called it 'Chinese virus' to change the COVID discourse of China about the origins and not its response.

So all the countries try and build the narratives. Some works and some does not. There is an excellent book by Vikram Sood, Former R&AW Chief called 'The Ultimate Truth' which has brought forth the different aspects of these narratives since Second World war. Refer my post on the Books
(Non fiction) thread as I don't know how to cross post yet.

Second part is day to day news
Essentially one part of news is about reporting on topics of interest and there will always be inherent bias irrespective of the medium though Journalism has adopted 'Objective reporting'. It thrives on the human nature to know things. Daily news reporting is generally disjointed to statecraft but when it joins the war campaign it becomes propaganda.

Other part is about the interests, opinions, thoughts which are used to influence the masses. This is the editorial stand of news papers as well pushing the opinions and mainly controlled by few media houses throughout the world all the while talking about neutrality. This is where it becomes intertwined with Statecraft depending on its political leanings. With the advent of 24x7 news and Social media, this line become blurred and everything become messy and disinformation become the major manifestation of it and selective reporting, partial reporting, non reporting or outright lies is used freely.

Example: Fist fight is happening between Person A and B and both of them land & take blows. One can decide to report it or not report it based on the interest of the neighborhood. If it is reported, it can be reported as two persons fighting.

It can also be reported as Person A is beating Person B. This is one degree of fake news as fact is both are beating each other.

It can also be reported as Person A is mercilessly beating Person B (making him profusely bleeding that he is going to die (unequal implied) to evoke sympathy to Person B. This is another degree of fake news.

It can a take more severe form of rumor with an obvious lie.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Before Russia and Iran, North Korea conducted several missile tests with the recent one under the guise of satellite on March 5:

North Korea is not an immediate problem for US. China attacking Taiwan is also not possible as I had mentioned earlier it being an island nation and any military buildup will give enough time for Taiwan to prepare. And then China will have to fight Japan and the other QUAD members too who will come to Taiwan’s rescue. And the financial implications as a War is expensive and they are already facing a real estate crisis where citizens are loosing money and the last thing China wants to put its citizens through a war now. And Xi has to be 100% sure that he will win if he attacks Taiwan or the CCP will show him the door if China’s reputation and financial standing is compromised.

Loosing control over Iran means Israel will get closer to Russia to keep Iran in check.

[deetee]

Day by day , this thread is becoming another covid 19 type of 'active and long' thread. I have an uneasy feeling that this is going to span over months.

[AltoLXI]

Scott Ritter on George Galloway show where he explains what is going on in Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJOIv9DSgpE

[Poitive]

From Tulsh Gabbard Tweet:
There are 25+ US-funded biolabs in Ukraine which if breached would release & spread deadly pathogens to US/world. We must take action now to prevent disaster. US/Russia/Ukraine/NATO/UN/EU must implement a ceasefire now around these labs until they’re secured & pathogens destroyed

~~~ Further ~~~

On 10th March on T-Bhp

Originally Posted by Poitive

Under Secretary of State Victoria Nuland admits Ukraine has "biological research facilities"

On 8th March on YouTube (see link in quoted post).

~~~

A related article on FP dated 10 March.



Link: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/10...isinformation/

~~

and on TASS dated 06 March



Link: https://tass.com/defense/1417951/

~~~

And now, on 13th March from Tulsi Gabbard, a 2020 Presidential candidate and former Congresswoman, and soldier.

Link to tweet with a 111 second video:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TulsiGabb...0938147729413/



~~~~~~

Draw your own conclusions.

Fake news isn't an easy subject to deal with. Much more so in war-times. From Russia reporting, to Nuland "admission" to AP reporting (as a conspiracy theory), to former US presidential candidate saying US funded - all in a few days.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Lies have become very much a currency of the world, and leaders such as Trump, Johnson, Putin have literally led the trend.
Then, what to do if Trump, Boris, Putin 'n'all are cynically using lies and hate speech. Should the world's media (social and others) just confine that to the vacuum, pretend it didn't even happen, never quote it, never repeat it, like not being allowed ever to use that "n-word" eve quoting someone else? No: it has to be reported.
People don't just talk. Outside of social media (inside too sometimes), serious journalists and investigators do serious work and research. And then it still our decision whether to accept their conclusions or not.
Case in point: This is an often-projected point of view. Russia v America; Russia v NATO; Russia v Europe. No: it's Russia invading Ukraine.

I don't really disagree with anything that you said but my humble submission was about how fake news, fact checkers (who have their own agenda and hence selective) & lies are difficult to make out in many cases and may depend on your point of view. It was interesting that you put Boris J & Trump along with Putin. After all, 75 million odd Americans voted for him despite all the criticism that Trump was showered with over an extended period of time across pretty much all US mainstream media outlets for pushing fake news and Boris J is the head of state for UK. It just shows that the fact checkers or the fake news allegations don't really carry a lot of credibility or trust at all with a large section of the population. Boris J incidentally was a journalist/editor in his previous avatar too. So maybe he understands the space just a little too well .

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Case in point: This is an often-projected point of view. Russia v America; Russia v NATO; Russia v Europe. No: it's Russia invading Ukraine.

Even here there is a different point of view. That point of view talks about how the regime in Kiev has provoked Russia in multiple ways after coming under the spell of the Americans in 2014. This point of view sees a Kiev regime that was bleeding Russia by cutting off fresh water access to Crimea. Crimea has around 2.5 Million residents and hosts the black sea fleet for Russia. That point of view believes that neonazis ruling kiev has allegedly killed thousands of Russian speaking Ukranians over the last few years because they supported Russia. This point of view sees a kiev regime that was never serious about executing their commitments under the Minsk agreement. This point of view has found some echo in NYT and FT too. However it is completely absent in the general discourse now.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/08/w...al-crimea.html
https://www.ft.com/content/5eda71fc-...a-d7f324e19441
My humble submission is that we should not believe in black & white categorizations of countries or leaders as good or evil. It makes sense for us to understand the different point of views/interests that are out there and then come to a conclusion on what is really happening on the ground. As I have said earlier, I don't know much about the Russians. I admire the US work culture and the fact that it is democratic and meritocratic where even immigrants can rise to the top purely on the basis of their merit. Just because I like the states way of doing business and work, It doesn't mean that I don't see the different point of views which are out there and don't dismiss that as fake news.
For a society which claims to be free & open, there should be some space for the other point of view to be shown too.

On another note, I wanted to share an interesting play that China is doing. They are suggested that the Indian situation is normalizing. At the same time, they are trying to get into a mediator role between the West and Russia. According to this Chinese thinktank : It’s Time to Offer Russia an Offramp. China Can Help With That.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1254670.shtml
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/o...a-ukraine.html

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Case in point: This is an often-projected point of view. Russia v America; Russia v NATO; Russia v Europe. No: it's Russia invading Ukraine.
----
Just thoughts. I don't know how to fix the world! Just sharing ideas and opinions.

To my mind, mate, limiting it to Russia invading Ukraine appears over-simplistic and misses the overall context and bigger war which is on. The part on the field is only a subset of a much bigger war and power-play.

Me too, just sharing ideas and thoughts; also below.

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

...my humble submission was about how fake news, fact checkers (who have their own agenda and hence selective) & lies are difficult to make out in many cases and may depend on your point of view....

The fact checkers too are subject to the points quoted below. In a sense, they too are (created/promoted?) figures of authority.

Originally Posted by Poitive

...

• Games are most often played not in telling lies, but in selectively telling the truth, to create distorted narratives. This is a classic game.
  .
• A lot is also distorted by the interpretation of facts and events. Most things in the world can be interpreted and connected with selected facts to present a narrative. Figures of authority, depending on their political persuasion and interests, can often singularly, or more often collectively, build a narrative which can become the commonly propagated narrative/view.
  
  Since political persuasions and interests can often be diverse, the narratives (based on interpretations and selection of facts) can also be diverse, and more often even near polar opposites. This is more true if there are two big interest groups at play, as they are able to back up those narratives. Back them up with power, money, influence, media space, 'credible authorities' and more. This can be noticed at various levels - domestic and the international level.
  
  Eventually they often just become tools at the hands of bigger forces at play (which can go beyond who holds current political power)

...

~~~~~

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

My opinion is we have to just understand and be conscious by separating statecraft (Narratives) and normal information dissemination by media on day to day life. Both are intertwined as well disjointed.
.....
Second part is day to day news

...Daily news reporting is generally disjointed to statecraft but when it joins the war campaign it becomes propaganda.
...This is where it becomes intertwined with Statecraft depending on its political leanings.

Mate, I agree with what you said broadly. However have a somewhat different view of how much they are intertwined.

To me, it seems that they are deeply intertwined, though in a more subtle manner. Everyday news too is much a part of gentle year-round statecraft. Check opposing media outlets. Won't name Indian ones due to the sensitive nature, so let us say Fox News and CNN. The way they interpret and connect daily events, and how they highlight some aspects, they create gentle narratives/views. The questions that are asked, and more so the ones which are not asked, are significant in this context. Once one is sensitized to narrative building by media houses, it starts to become very obvious and easy to note in daily news reporting. Many subtle signs besides those already stated: tone of voice and expressions, who is invited for comments, and who is allowed more airtime (without interruption), and especially the terms used to describe events and people.

While one might say that it is being done primarily for commercial purposes as they have a certain 'client base' and they cater to what they are wiling to pay for, I strongly suspect it goes beyond just the obvious commercial interest as stated.

Taking this a step further, media houses in other countries too are influenced to suit narratives. It is a a part of slowly grooming the masses to points of view - usually favourable views, but could be simply to polarize to make the ground fertile for future 'revolutions'.

[navrddy]

My current take on this topic:
1. Russia has gone too deep into this conflict, to the point of no return. Consequences for Russia, if it pulls back is too much at this stage. Russia will never afford to lose this conflict, no matter what are the consequences.
2. From now one, there are only 2 possibilities, a. Ukraine losses, b. NATO gets involved into this conflict, becomes world wide conflict.

For better of all humanity and Europe in particular, it is better Ukraine loses war, and Russia install Pro-Kremlin Govt or at worst neutral government.

It is in Ukraine interest, they back down and let Russia takeover.
Stakes for Russia losing war is far too dangerous for everyone. Considering it will deploy more radical war doctrines, which humanity has never seen.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by navrddy

... ... ...It is in Ukraine interest, they back down and let Russia takeover.
Stakes for Russia losing war is far too dangerous for everyone. Considering it will deploy more radical war doctrines, which humanity has never seen.

Well, yes. This is a very practical point of view. I'm sure very many of us sympathise with it. Because we (the rest of the world, not just us, this forum, this country) don't want to get involved in a potentially apocalyptic war. Who would?

How does one say to a country: OK, so it wasn't your fault, but one of the most dangerous nutters in the world picked on you, and you'd better give up because we don't want to be victims as well.

I struggle with thinking this. It isn't easy on the conscience. Cheer for the little guy this week, throw him to the dogs (well, bear) next week.

Hard to live with. Glad I'm an insignificant guy, not a world decision maker.

Apart from all that (we do have feelings, right?). Putin will have, effectively, beaten Europe/NATO/US as well.

A third possibility, but perhaps fictional only, would be for Putin not to be president of Russia any longer. And that is entirely up to Russia.

Half an hour later...

The "BioLab Stuff

Thanks to another forum, please see

Ukraine war: Fact-checking Russia's biological weapons claims (BBC)

Politifact