[hdus001]

Originally Posted by poloman

No employee is indispensable beyond a month. Even VPs, CEOs leave with months notice. So you have proper back up resources and proper planning, you can very well do KT and relieve the person in a month. Else you are making the guy too big for his role. 3 months this guy will be simply loitering enjoying the full salary. So companies have to look inwards, why people leave and if at all they leave, you are properly backed up and resourced to take up the KT.

Big +1 to this. Why are team members working in such isolated silos that one person leaving takes away so much historical knowledge with them? Arent others in the team across what this person does and therefore fill in some of the blanks / help a replacement get up to speed?

I don't think the advice to give 6 months or 9 months heads up about intending to leave is a very practical one. (Reciprocally, I'm sure companies don't announce months ahead that there might be layoffs in 9 months' time). In my own experience, I've changed jobs a fair bit and I myself didn't know I'd be leaving months before. Opportunities come knocking and you may decide to take it up though you never planned for it. Besides changing jobs doesn't always mean one was unhappy in the previous job. Many times the opportunity to try something else out or a change of scene is a important driver too.

One more, so what if a team member leaves and the replacement takes more time to become equally productive? This is just natural, and IMO should just be seen as an unfortunate reality and therefore manage expectations with clients when this happens. After all this is not the fault of anyone in the team, it's just a natural occurrence. Similar to what if a crucial employee died - it may mean projects get delayed, and it's up to the stakeholder management team then to make stakeholders aware and negotiate dates. Or even better, plan for these attrition scenarios upfront and ensure there is more cross-pollination within teams and processes in place (tech talks, brown bags, rotation across projects, documentation, pairing, whatever) that one person leaving then has a lesser impact.

One of my reportees just handed in his notice yesterday, and I don't see that as a big negative event. A bit disappointing but am very happy inside that a person who started his career with us has now grown enough in his career to attract such brilliant offers. This was the general sentiment of my superiors too when I shared the news, and this seems like a very healthy attitude to me.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

Same TCS has 3 months notice period for employees in India. The 3 months notice period as you rightly said is to make the employee undesirable for other companies to poach..

I think the 3 month notice period is there because most of the projects in service companies are 'time and materials' and relieving a 'billable' employee affects the revenue. folks on 'Bench' can't often replace the resigned employee (due to skillset, experience).
Funny thing is, when it comes to a new joinee, these very companies want him/her to join in 1 month.

[turbodude]

Many companies are facing their worst nightmare in the form of these attritions. I work in the support group and our job is very much relaxed with a salary which is not much but sufficient to survive.

Yet our team has suffered almost 50% attrition and people got 60%-100% hike, which has baffled our other team members and HR as well. Because we land in cost center and hence high salaries are rare unless the resource is billable to external client.

People who spent 10+ yrs in our team got handsome profiles and good packages in other companies. And our team is looking for replacements now, which is difficult because the candidates they shortlist have double the salary than our company pays (courtesy - spy in HR team ).

Our senior managers are at fault here who ignored the team members for last 4-5 years and in the lockdown, by micro managing everything. People who left were quite skilled and responsible but who wants to fill 3 portals just to mark daily attendance. Nobody likes being monitored with activities like what you did in the day and how many hours spent on what activities, specially when you are in support team.

Lots of IT companies run their body shopping offices like a manufacturing company. They need to stop that. New hires belong to a different generation and won't like manufacturing level attitude. Entire IT industry needs a refreshing change.

[thanixravindran]

I think I have written this in some other thread but here it is anyway. Leaving out Government employees (who have job and pension for life), Private Employees/Salaried are also like business person/traders and have to look after themselves. They are deploying their knowledge and time instead of capital. No wonder they settle for lesser but predictable and more stable returns. When the right time comes, they too bet on the future with job change for more returns maximizing their profit. Will all of them succeed? Answer to this is whether all businesses succeeds. Some will inevitably fail. And do not forget that they are giving interest free credit of 30 days for their services to the employer. So there is nothing wrong in getting huge hikes or multiple offers. I will leave out the ethics part as it varies widely across the spectrum of employers and employees.

Post COVID is a unique situation for both capital markets and job market in IT. There is a huge spike and no one knows whether it will hold for a bit longer or bust soon. So people who take calculated bets (aligned to future skill sets) will emerge stronger in long run. Others will fall back and the salaries will normalize in the next few years. So job market is like a pendulum and this time, the swing is in favor of employees and a bit extreme triggering reactions everywhere.

Now coming to the notice period, for any type of companies - Service (IT) or Product based companies, I believe it is unjustified to have 60/90 days notice period in India and this KT stuff is over rated. I have worked in both types but as a non software engineer and entry level management jobs - One long term in a Product based MNC for 12 years and another a short stint in the Engg services of Indian IT company (WITCH) for Indian clients.

For the first category, product based MNCs, most often the teams are geographically distributed across the globe and layoffs and/or site closures at high cost developed nations were common (shipping the jobs to India/China/Eastern Europe). People with domain/product/manufacturing experience of 25+ years have gone within a week or two or worst case may be a month even in Europe (where it is more tough to layoff). Most of the work will be taken up in India with a small KT sessions. So there will be a period of discontinuity and instability but will settle down. These companies are mostly process driven and two areas stand out to minimize disruption.

1. Related to management personal - the global rule is from mid management onwards, there will be a mandatory succession planning in place which is not limited to retirement/job change but even covers moving up the ladder or different roles. So the show goes on with that identified person who is mostly closer to the market (Europe/USA). I have seen many teams including my own vanished with varied degrees of notice period and it is the responsibility of the entry to mid level management (both local and global) to deal with it. The top management focus is on P&L. Non compete and Garden leave clause contracts were at the top management. As I look back, those product lines still exist.

2. Related to technical personal - There will be periodic quarterly resource reviews to remove 'Single point' failure risks for technical people. Even most projects will have a risk assessment to eliminate this failure. Only con is there won't be much proactive hiring in these companies as there is no concept of 'Bench'. Knowledge built over the years will be lost but these companies reinvent themselves into new spaces and are okay with the churn of older technologies in the long run. Project planning takes into account of general attrition of 10% for short term. I have not seen any projects stopped due to attrition.

All of this makes the 60 day notice period prevalent in Indian Engineering centers of global MNCs a joke. In my own case, I served the 60 days notice period whereas the KT of 12 years just took a week or two. Only reason, I believe these long notice period exists is billing as all these captive design centers are cost centers and due to the nature of the Indian job market. After all, Be a Roman in Rome.

Second category is the Indian IT/Engg services companies where the equation of client/customer comes which adds complexity. Bigger companies purely operate in numbers whether it is Resource augmentation mode or managed service delivery mode.

For resource augmentation mode, as long as there is demand and supply, the churn will be there. Here customer needs to reduce his risk by spreading the work across people and across service providers. Service company top management don't bat an eyelid as even before COVID the attrition levels were at 30% to 40% even in long term accounts. The advantage of these companies is their 'bench' strength to reduce the turn around time for replacement. I have seen how company and even engineers treat the 'bench' time with very poor accountability and don't use it effectively for replacement.

The other mode - managed service delivery model is a bit tricky because the customer contracts will be more stringent with penalty clauses and affects direct monthly billing due to non performance (reduced margin). Most projects I have seen have ghost resources as margins are built by accounting them. So this will also be absorbed with a period of disruption. I wonder what a 1 year or 2 year employee transfers the knowledge for 3 long months. Most of the KT is just a couple of weeks overlap that is needed. With the advent of so many software tools from code to documentation, KT for so many months is a overkill.

At the same time, I have seen much pressure applied to relieve people early without pay to save cost (overhead employees). When it comes to money, no one is a Saint and everyone will look after themselves first. Finally, the one that was not covered in this thread and the biggest malpractice is the notice period pay during this long notice period. Several big companies still stop a month's pay and will give it only on Full and Final settlement. This is downright unfair practice as I have never seen this written in the employment contract.

[dsr001]

A question here, the phenomenon of large hikes on switching jobs, is it limited to individual contributors? What about managers? Could it be that manager is actually getting less money than her reportee?

[AZT]

Got this on my ex office friends WhatsApp group. Basically this person had timed his resignation to recieve his bonus as the policy is you have to be an employee on the day of payout. Company preponed his exit date by 10 days and now he won’t be getting it. Sometimes you outsmart the system and sometimes the system outsmarts you.

This is from the fishbowl app which I found out existed just yesterday.

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by AZT

Company preponed his exit date by 10 days

If the signed contract stipulates a certain notice period, wouldn't both parties have to agree if that's going to change? ie Can one party alone decide they now want a shorter notice period?

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by hdus001

If the signed contract stipulates a certain notice period, wouldn't both parties have to agree if that's going to change? ie Can one party alone decide they now want a shorter notice period?

Depends on what is the clause wording in his offer letter. Some companies put a monetary clause to the period, applicable to both sides. If that is the case, he'll get monetary payment for those 10 days. But very less chance they will pay for the bonus since that's independent.

[Arun Varma]

Originally Posted by hdus001

If the signed contract stipulates a certain notice period, wouldn't both parties have to agree if that's going to change? ie Can one party alone decide they now want a shorter notice period?

The terms of employment are often at the discretion of the employer. It is up to the employer to decide whether the notice is enough or not and there is wording in the offer letter usually to denote that. Also, usually, if the company decides to curtail the notice, they will pay the full compensation due for the entirety of the notice period less the applicable deductions.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by AZT

Got this on my ex office friends WhatsApp group. Basically this person had timed his resignation to recieve his bonus as the policy is you have to be an employee on the day of payout. Company preponed his exit date by 10 days and now he won’t be getting it. Sometimes you outsmart the system and sometimes the system outsmarts you.

This is from the fishbowl app which I found out existed just yesterday.

Attachment 2315491

Many companies have a clause that AIP or bonus won't be given to employees who are serving their notice period. In such cases, 30th or 20th, wouldn't make a difference. In other cases, bonus itself is reduced to the minimum amount for people serving notice period. Their rating is also adjusted accordingly to support the bonus.

All this depends on the employment terms and conditions. The HR team will try to find a way to reduce their money outflow on an employee who has quit.

Regarding notice period, companies have a clause that it will be 'x' days or the employee can be compensated for 'x' days' salary if they are released earlier.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by ashis89

Many companies have a clause that AIP or bonus won't be given to employees who are serving their notice period.

To be fair, not all companies are like this. I've seen that usually the condition for a bonus payout is that the employee has to be on the rolls of the company on a particular date, usually 31st Dec of that year to be eligible.

And I've personally been able to extend my notice period by a week just to be eligible for gratuity payment at a previous job.

But yes- those positive experiences notwithstanding, I'd advise anyone leaving to plan their exit in such a way that you don't depend on the goodwill of HR to get what is due to you! Make sure you meet the terms of your contract, leave a buffer, if being eligible for those components are date dependent.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by am1m

To be fair, not all companies are like this. I've seen that usually the condition for a bonus payout is that the employee has to be on the rolls of the company on a particular date, usually 31st Dec of that year to be eligible.

Agreed, not all are like that. Some companies have credited the bonus (let's say in May) even though the employee had left the firm (let's say in March). Again, depends on the terms and conditions of employment contract.

I'd advise anyone leaving to plan their exit in such a way that you don't depend on the goodwill of HR to get what is due to you!

+1. Never depend on the mercy of the HR or on the heresay that "they considered someone's case". One might not be equally lucky.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by am1m

To be fair, not all companies are like this. I've seen that usually the condition for a bonus payout is that the employee has to be on the rolls of the company on a particular date, usually 31st Dec of that year to be eligible.

I have left a job in Oct and then received my bonus (50% of what I would have got for the full year, and not the minimum bonus amount either, what I should have received based on company and individual performance) in April.
It makes sense to leave on good terms.

[Vishal.R]

Originally Posted by AZT

Got this on my ex office friends WhatsApp group.

Have heard similar thing from a friend as well. In his case no bonus is involved.

He heard from his boss that his current company may prepone his leaving. Now in his case he doesn't want to explore any other options and wanted to stick to the offer he has in hand as Its from a reputed company and he is someone who prefers to stay long. (he is leaving current company after 10+ years). One problem is his background verification by his next company is going on, and they would allow him to join only after the process is completed, so he may have to remain "unemployed" for some time, unless he do "ghosting" which he doesn't want to do.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Vishal.R

so he may have to remain "unemployed" for some time, unless he do "ghosting" which he doesn't want to do.

I don't understand this, what is the problem in having a little free time between jobs? I know many former employees who kept a 2-4 week gap between relieving date and joining date. Usually for moving between cities, settle long pending errands, etc.