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Old 27th January 2023, 13:19   #61
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

I agree that the report by Hindenburg may not be 100% true and maybe a bit biased, but it is a serious bubble in all likelihood. Only this one issue raises all the alarms for me. I work in audit department of one of the Big 4s and I can vouch for Hindenburg here. The issue is not 24-25 year old, the issue is the small firm. I am a 21 year old and I have also worked on several listed entities, but the difference is, in Big 4 firms the talent they hire are absolutely top tier. Some of them have criteria as stringent as both group of CA inter in one attempt. Add to this the stringent interview process. Even with all these, we have to undergo several rounds of trainings, I have few friends who work in midsize firms because they opted work life balance, even though they are capable enough to handle the gargantuan entities, they lack the tools and resources for the same. As I said, 24-25 year olds are not problem since we CAs have to study everything and simply there is no shortcut. All of the CA firms in India including Big4s hire CA intermediate qualified students as Articles just because they can get away with it by paying peanuts in the name of stipend. Often as young as 18 year olds. But they ensure the quality isn't hampered by making us go through n number of trainings. The review of our work in itself is a huge process. Our reports will be reviewed multiple times before finalizing, by consultants, managers, directors and finally the partners. The collective experience they bring in to the table is unmatchable by any small sized firm.

Hindenburg has 88 questions and I have only one. Why can't a 280 billion dollar company afford Big4 audit fees?
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Old 27th January 2023, 14:07   #62
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

This stock manipulation as per the report is very worrisome. It just goes to show the level of collusion going on. Such meteoric rise in wealth can’t happen if everything is by the books.
Today, Adani Enterprises is 13% down. I hope it corrects itself to realistic prices. None of Adani stocks are worth more than 200-300 rupees.
I have never bought an adani stock and never bought any adani product, as it is my solemn principal.
Even if the report is correct, I doubt Lord Adani is going to face any consequences.
Just hoping that adani ji won’t bring down the economy with him.

Linking a very unbiased review of the situation by Akshat Shrivastava

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Old 27th January 2023, 14:27   #63
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

This is going to be fun. Apparently Adani group has most of its loans from foreign banks. If they ask for more data, things would get really interesting. Till date I haven't understood why do startup with their silly valuations raise more eyebrows than this group of companies.

If ever there was an award for most inscrutable Annual reports, Adani would win hands down. Hindenburg has a open short position on this, so there is inherent conflict of interest, however at the very least only the naive would try to put this as a political hit job. Financial hot job: Maybe, Political: not a chance. Either ways I'll get my popcorn.
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Old 27th January 2023, 14:37   #64
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

I don't understand the conflict of interest part wrt Hindenberg. Their business is to identify businesses that can go down the drain and short them before triggering the fall by releasing research data. I see that their interests are perfectly aligned with their actions.

What we don't see is that, the data similar to which Hindenberg has released was brought to light by several other parties - but this kind of fall didn't happen then. Why? May be investors didn't buy the sentiment or maybe stock was not overvalued to be worrisome. Now this crash happened because several other factors colluded.

If we expect analysts to be saints and give us gyan without expecting rewards, then we are naive. As far as I see, Hindenberg are just doing their business as usual, it is our regulatory authorities and financial system that should do a sanity check to avoid repeating these periodical scams.
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Old 27th January 2023, 14:42   #65
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
Different stocks (usually based on marketcap) have different circuit levels.
.
Smartcat - How does this shorting works in this instance as Hindenberg claims short position on US traded bonds and non Indian derivatives? Does Adani has huge exposure in overseas stock market through bonds?

After extensive research, we have taken a short position in Adani Group Companies through U.S.-traded bonds and non-Indian-traded derivative instruments
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Old 27th January 2023, 14:55   #66
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Fail might be too extreme a word for a company like Adani. However, what I believe is certain is a major shift in gears. A major shift in their ways of operation was long overdue and should be visible sooner than expected.

Considering what is at stake here i sincerely hope they don't fail.
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Old 27th January 2023, 14:56   #67
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

SEBI studying Hindenburg Research report on #AdaniGroup, may use the report to aid its ongoing prelim probe into offshore fund holdings of Adani Group.

US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history-fnd1g8pagaah9u9.jpg
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Old 27th January 2023, 15:00   #68
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Adani has a lot of bonds which trade in the US stock market. I guess they have shorted those bonds. Akshat had mentioned about it in his video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thanixravindran View Post
Smartcat - How does this shorting works in this instance as Hindenberg claims short position on US traded bonds and non Indian derivatives? Does Adani has huge exposure in overseas stock market through bonds?

After extensive research, we have taken a short position in Adani Group Companies through U.S.-traded bonds and non-Indian-traded derivative instruments

Last edited by D4d-maniac : 27th January 2023 at 15:07.
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Old 27th January 2023, 15:43   #69
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetee View Post
I don't understand the conflict of interest part wrt Hindenberg. Their business is to identify businesses that can go down the drain and short them before triggering the fall by releasing research data. I see that their interests are perfectly aligned with their actions.

If we expect analysts to be saints and give us gyan without expecting rewards, then we are naive. As far as I see, Hindenberg are just doing their business as usual, it is our regulatory authorities and financial system that should do a sanity check to avoid repeating these periodical scams.
All,

I'm using @deetee's post as a reference point to explain my thoughts. My post is not targeted at @deetee who has added real value to this thread with his posts. I say this even if I may not always concur with him. My post here is to remove some of the halo I perceive Hindenburg enjoys on this thread. At the start I'll clarify that Adani is not my son-in-law and I do not have much empathy for him other than his entrepreneurial spirit to build great infrastructure. I'll also add that in the distant past I knowingly turned down multiple offers to be a supplier to that group.

But.....the world is only shades of grey....

Businesses like Hindenburg, hedge funds, George Soros trading on the British Pound knowing his actions will cause it to crash {and cause immense harm to a whole society}, lobbying in Washington DC, gun laws, their astronomical pharmaceutical prices etc - the US society has legitimized so much activity which from a strictly human point of view can & does cause immense harm to innocents that some of us today believe that is normal and can say 'he was only following his business model'. It is like saying Adani is also only following his business model of allegedly manipulating his stock price XX times and borrowing against it to grow his business further!!!

Hindenburg should give their corporate targets a chance to clarify their stand before publishing a forensic report which is designed to wilfully cause financial damage {including to helpless small share holders}. But of course Hindenburg won't do that otherwise whither will lie their short positions! So Hindenburg plays judge & prosecutor rolled in one.

While Adani has to certainly answer to SEBI on their stock management activities, Hindenburg's business model is a sophisticated version of of the ransom business {all investment bankers are likely to disagree}. Just because they are American, white and sophisticated doesn't make them any better than the Adani they are attacking.

Mind you SEBI would do well to study the report in depth. But the quality of the research does not take away from the timing, the click-bait title and that the sole purpose to release this (or any other) report is to book a big gain while positioning themselves as reformers. And this positioning with a halo is key to their strategy that makes investors act on their reports knowing the stock will fall and everyone understandably wants to be the first to get out.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 27th January 2023 at 15:55.
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Old 27th January 2023, 15:53   #70
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Adani CFO responds to Hindenburg report with the National Flag behind him!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the ....."

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Old 27th January 2023, 15:56   #71
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Do we know how much is the shortening (if thats the word )of the stock ?

The whole stock market and the futures, derivatives etc is a legitimized game allowed to be played. Not sure what was the justification to start this horse trading craft. To call shorts by alleging is also legitimate

The float of the stock does seem to be really low if shell companies have bought a lot. Maybe they should have a higher limit for float for retail investors.
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Old 27th January 2023, 16:12   #72
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Hindenburg should give their corporate targets a chance to clarify their stand before publishing a forensic report which is designed to wilfully cause financial damage {including to helpless small share holders}.
.......
But the quality of the research does not take away from the timing, the catchy title and that the sole purpose to release this (or any other) report is to book a big gain while positioning themselves as reformers.
Appreciate that indepth insight. I run a very small business and am a derivative trader with purely technical approach. Based on my approach towards financial markets, here are my views:

If I were to run a company like Hindenberg, given the laws of the nation I operate from, the present actions would be absolutely legal like you have mentioned. As for them giving time to Adani to respond in private , Adani had lot of time at hand to set things right, if they really wanted to do that. In 2022 itself, rating agencies cried foul , a few independent journalists made some polite inquiries.
Adani being Adani, they ignored all that and went about their business as usual. As for retail/institutional investors who invested into Adani stock, what were they doing all this time when these small tremors are signalling an impending earth quake?

Any investment into market is subject to risk and that risk is not the responsibility of the company or anyone who tries to manipulate the sentiments. There were enough warnings about the business structure of Adani but because the stock was rising all this while, eveyone was happy. There is no point blaming Hindenberg for crashing Adani or Indian markets. What was already at a tipping point crashed due to the stimulus from the report. If not that report, something else would have done it. Better now than later.

We can't even blame Adani solely for this fiasco. As I mentioned earlier, had our regulatory system been efficient and capable enough, after previous business scams, there should not have been a repetition of similar frauds. But the loop holes still exist and exploitation happens. Unless the core flaws are fixed, these kind of frauds keep happening in different avatars. SEBI, if it was proactive, could have launched a deep probe when earlier reports came on Adani. Now it woke up after the damage is done. Not a single person is holding SEBI responsible for the losses happening to investors. Today it may be Adani, tomorrow somebody else will repeat this modus operandi unless the system can patch itself.

Disclaimer: I never traded Adani stocks or derivatives, don't have any vested interests in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SideView View Post
SEBI been reactive than proactive as usual.
A team of less than 10 people (also working on many other stuff) is able to come up such analysis. Whereas SEBI which is payed from taxpayers to protect the taxpayers spends years analysing with no breakthrough. What are they waiting for to come up with report, until everything is over?
Very valid question. But very few think on those lines. Either the whistle blower or the con artist are blamed , neither the system nor the investor get any smarter from previous fallouts.

Last edited by deetee : 27th January 2023 at 16:24.
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Old 27th January 2023, 16:14   #73
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
SEBI studying Hindenburg Research report on #AdaniGroup, may use the report to aid its ongoing prelim probe into offshore fund holdings of Adani Group.

Attachment 2410879
SEBI been reactive than proactive as usual.
A team of less than 10 people (also working on many other stuff) is able to come up such analysis. Whereas SEBI which is payed from taxpayers to protect the taxpayers spends years analysing with no breakthrough. What are they waiting for to come up with report, until everything is over? Either give a clean chit or flag it as a scam. Longer this goes on the more dangerous it could become
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Old 27th January 2023, 16:22   #74
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
All,



Businesses like Hindenburg, hedge funds, George Soros trading on the British Pound knowing his actions will cause it to crash {and cause immense harm to a whole society},
This is purely limited to shorting of the pound by Soros. The pound getting devalued made him rich AND also got UK to a better mechanism than ERM.
From Wiki..."The crisis damaged the credibility of the second Major ministry in handling of economic matters. The ruling Conservative Party suffered a landslide defeat five years later at the 1997 United Kingdom general election and did not return to power until 2010. The rebounding of the UK economy in the years after Black Wednesday has been attributed to the fall in the value of sterling and the replacement of the ERM with an inflation targeting monetary stability policy.[1][2" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday) He did what a speculator does and profited out of it. Why demonize him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Mind you SEBI would do well to study the report in depth. But the quality of the research does not take away from the timing, the click-bait title and that the sole purpose to release this (or any other) report is to book a big gain while positioning themselves as reformers. And this positioning with a halo is key to their strategy that makes investors act on their reports knowing the stock will fall and everyone understandably wants to be the first to get out.
Hindenburg are NOT reformers. They are in to make money when the repricing of the asset happens due to reforms. They are speculators and traders. "Investors" wanting to get out first got in on the principle of greater fool theory. If, and its a big IF, the regulatory bodies performed their duties properly, this would not have been the case where it is letting an asset bubble grow right under their noses. If we get a solid whistleblower act along with implementation of the same, Not just Adani, a lot more of froth from "esteemed" brands would (and should) bite the dust.
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Old 27th January 2023, 16:33   #75
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Re: US-based firm Hindenburg alleges Adanis are pulling the world's largest con in corporate history

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Originally Posted by Spaced Out View Post
Adani CFO responds to Hindenburg report with the National Flag behind him!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the ....."

https://Youtu.be/keX803x5ykw
So, apparently if I write anything against Lord Adani and his bunch of cronies, I would be anti-national.
This Jumla trading has got on my short side.
I am simply averse to it.
If you don’t agree with me.. you are anti national.
We were the most civilised society. What have we been reduced to!!!
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