[poloman]

Got communication on pay cuts for most levels. Q1-Q2 is going to be blood bath in IT. Brace for the impact..This is no joke.!

[am1m]

Some more tips:

Periodically update your resume. Especially after a particularly challenging assignment or when you've acquired a new skill. It's easier to articulate points when they are fresh in your memory than after a couple of years when you are looking for a job.

Backup or e-mail personal files and payslips periodically from your work laptop. Some companies enjoy shutting all access as soon as layoffs happen. Keep all personal files in an easy to access folder on your work laptop so you can just delete it at one shot if the worst happens.

I know one chap who literally hit the ground running after he was laid off, before he even returned his work laptop, he'd applied for new roles. He converted the bad situation into an advantage - "can join immediately/no notice period" is a powerful attraction to recruiters. And sure enough landed a new job early. Was there when his previous company's HR and his manager called offering their fake "support" a few weeks post-layoff. Must have been so satisfying to be in a position to say- hey it's ok, I already have a job, thanks for the 2 month's free salary (severance) though! Of course he didn't actually say that, he put it very professionally - another lesson, don't burn any bridges, the IT world is very small!

[DudeWithaFiat]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

.....honestly curious on what they do and how much value it brings to the table. The reason I am is because some of them take up 4-5 certifications per year ( and one over 11) and I have no clue where they get so much time to prepare and write for those certifications without raising any red flags.

So, for someone to be valuable, he/she has to be working for the company every minute he is awake? An employee who can set aside one or two hours a day outside his work hours to upskill means there is not enough work for him at office and that he is a seat warmer?

[CarCraze]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

An employee who can set aside one or two hours a day outside his work hours to upskill means there is not enough work for him at office and that he is a seat warmer?

In IT terms, if he is able to allocate a couple of hours aside, that means he is not being utilised enough and his manager will be fired for this reason

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by CarCraze

In IT terms, if he is able to allocate a couple of hours aside, that means he is not being utilised enough and his manager will be fired for this reason

I dont think you will be working every minute or every second. How will you post on TBHP in that case ? Couple of hours might not be possible among the 8 hours. But certainly possible in the 10/12/14 hours we work sometimes

Any skill you update to will be used in your current job most of the time and for future career.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

So, for someone to be valuable, he/she has to be working for the company every minute he is awake? An employee who can set aside one or two hours a day outside his work hours to upskill means there is not enough work for him at office and that he is a seat warmer?

From your response, sir, I assume you're one of them. So please enlighten me on how you you guys add value by being one of those managers. From our perspective, all you guys do are collecting updates, pushing down extra work when we're about to leave and crooning about gaining several certifications, from which you never share any knowledge apart from the standard response of 'please Google it'. So please unravel the myths

[DudeWithaFiat]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

From your response, sir, I assume you're one of them. So please enlighten me on how you you guys add value by being one of those managers. From our perspective, all you guys do are collecting updates, pushing down extra work when we're about to leave and crooning about gaining several certifications, from which you never share any knowledge apart from the standard response of 'please Google it'. So please unravel the myths

Wow. Wow. It is unbelievable that someone can make so many assumptions about someone else's job because of having a different opinion. You have also promoted me to a Manager faster than any HR personnel. Thanks . Something I always tell myself is never to make assumptions. "Trust, but verify" - is the exact words I say.

So, I am sorry to disappoint you, I cannot 'unravel the myth' because I am actually one of those DOers, whom others ping directly, by-passing the red tape. Having an interesting job (I am cybersecurity professional working for a major Israeli company that employs several Unit 8200 members) helps too. One day, you will find me writing an exploit code to show the developers that the XSS vulnerability reported by last scan is not a false positive, but the next day you will find me scratching my head to figure out why the Splunk agent is using up too much memory or CPU on a server. (okay, that was me blowing my trumpet to prove that I am actually a technical person)

Coming back to the topic:

Once thing I would like to clarify is that there is no single work culture for the whole IT field. The work culture in service-based WITCH companies is completely different from that of good product companies. And even within a product company, the work culture can differ from team to team. The toxic environment that you have explained, I have mostly heard it from my friends working for WITCH companies or support teams in product companies where the managers are more interested in making things look good on paper with the number of tickets or cases worked/closed etc., so that they look good when presented to the client or customer.

I`ve worked for 3 different product-based companies (in Trivandrum, Bangalore and Pune respectively) the last 12 years and fortunately the work culture I have experienced is completely different from that of what is generally said about IT. Having US/EU managers have helped too. The work hour boundaries are highly respected, PTOs does not need explanation and it is considered okay if we do not reply to an email or reject meeting requests that comes after office hours. If you do have to attend late-night meetings on account of time-zone differences, it is not frowned upon to compensate it by logging out early or late the next day. Except when there are very serious situations - I remember having to work almost 18 hours a day for 3 to 4 days in a row when we had a serious production issue last year, but it was not just us, it was my manager (who is one of most technical skilled persons I have ever seen) and his boss (a VP) too.

IT companies with good work culture and that offers good opportunities exist. I am not talking about the IT enabler wings of non-IT companies where the quality and 'quantity' of the work is very low. The only one-time I worked for such a company; I resigned in less than a year (along with another BHPian who was a colleague) due to the lack of work.

P.S:- On another note, if what you have explained is what you are experiencing from your manager now, then you really need to switch. I can never work in such a company and I cannot understand what stops people from looking for a job elsewhere.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

Wow. Wow. It is unbelievable that someone can make so many assumptions about someone else's job because of having a different opinion. You have also promoted me to a Manager faster than any HR personnel. Thanks . Something I always tell myself is never to make assumptions. "Trust, but verify" - is the exact words I say.

So, I am sorry to disappoint you, I cannot 'unravel the myth' because I am actually one of those DOers

P.S:- On another note, if what you have explained is what you are experiencing from your manager now, then you really need to switch. I can never work in such a company and I cannot understand what stops people from looking for a job elsewhere.

And what did I gain by risking with false assumptions? A brand new perspective into a life of a security specialist and more insights of a fellow BHPian! I've learnt a lot by sharing my assumptions because people naturally tend to go in detail to refute them if it's false when compared to asking for more clarification. Haven't tried this in my professional life though.

Yes, this is mainly seen in WITCH companies from which I have resigned and been relieved this week. And I'm going to a product based company where I'm hoping the culture isn't toxic but nevertheless expecting the worst. All said and done, there were amazing individuals in the company and I ensured that no bridges were burnt in the process.

[Stardust]

There is a reason why there is a middle level management in all the organizations, even in the most competitive organizations in the most capitalistic economies.

While entropy is the law of nature, the very existence of an organization depends on preventing internal chaos and disorder. As an organization grows in size, it needs convergence between its different departments and ensure that operations and goals of individual units are in coherence with organizational goals.

Secondly, middle level management provides a training ground to prepare people for top level. A CXO need to be convergent with functioning of the organization as a whole (even if at a basic level), and not just any specific field. This training ground, in most of the cases, is provided via middle level positions.

Finally, flat hierarchy may work for a start-up in its initial stage, but as an organization grow bigger, it inevitably needs a middle level management for coherence, convergence, and concerted efforts.

A bloated organizational structure may not be the most optimum, but there isn't still any viable alternative to Weber's bureaucratic structure as of now, for large organisations.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

Having an interesting job (I am cybersecurity professional working for a major Israeli company that employs several Unit 8200 members) helps too. One day, you will find me writing an exploit code to show the developers that the XSS vulnerability reported by last scan is not a false positive, but the next day you will find me scratching my head to figure out why the Splunk agent is using up too much memory or CPU on a server. (okay, that was me blowing my trumpet to prove that I am actually a technical person)

Nice to find a fellow app security person on the forum, I too work on vulnerability management although have moved to the policy side now but previously i was completely technical.

[DigitalOne]

Meta is ‘flattening’ its workforce and telling high-level managers to transition to a new role....

Meta Platforms Inc. is asking many of its managers and directors to transition to individual contributor jobs or leave the company as it tries to become more efficient, according to people familiar with the matter.

The process is known internally as a “flattening,” the people said. Higher-level managers are sharing the directive with their subordinates in the coming weeks, separate from the company’s regular performance reviews that are currently underway....

Source: Fortune

[JediKnight]

Dell to cut 6500 jobs:

Dell Technologies Inc. is eliminating about 6,650 roles as it faces plummeting demand for personal computers, becoming the latest technology company to announce thousands of job cuts.

Source Bloomberg.

[V.Narayan]

There are plenty of open jobs for tech workers — they're just not at tech companies

https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/...w/97698871.cms

According to this article the demand or tech professionals in non-Tech i.e. the old brick & mortar companies is strong. Question is do tech professionals want to work there and miss the higher pay & perks the tech companies offer - definitely in India.

This brings me to another question - would the lay-offs have been so widespread if tech workers were paid normal wages like the rest of the brick & mortar economy. It is a widely accepted problem in the economy outside IT Services, in India at least, that getting good engineers {chemical, mechanical, civil, electrical} is a nightmare because they only want to work in IT.

My sympathy to all young and not so young who have been laid off. It is a terrible terrible place to find yourself in. In a job getting laid off is similar in a business to have a long serving contract being cancelled on you for little reason leaving you sitting with employees and assets.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

According to this article the demand or tech professionals in non-Tech i.e. the old brick & mortar companies is strong.

This is good news, thanks for sharing sir. Never thought about this possibility, but it makes good sense. I think we'll see the same trend here in India as smaller non-IT businesses implement more IT solutions and find it more economical to do that with employees in-house rather than through a bigger service provider/integrator.

About the question about whether people will want to shift-

I guess it depends on the number of such jobs. I'm not sure the number of those jobs will match the kind of intake that the TCSs and Infys have. Perhaps someone in the growth stage of their career with young children and home loans will naturally need to look at the money aspect mainly. But for older guys like me, while I'm certainly grateful for the US-based companies that I've worked at, personally, I would love to get the chance to work at a business in India with Indian clients who I can meet and get requirements and feedback from first-hand. As opposed to a job where my work basically makes already rich American trust-fund folk richer. (A couple of my former IT companies were owned by massive PE firms in the US who'd every five years, chop us up, or merge us, and of course have layoffs to increase valuation and then sell us.) Would certainly be willing to take a pay cut for that, and if I didn't have a job, certainly.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It is a widely accepted problem in the economy outside IT Services, in India at least, that getting good engineers {chemical, mechanical, civil, electrical} is a nightmare because they only want to work in IT.

Not just that, I think the whole focus on outsourced IT services from the 90s sort of cost us a home-grown software product and domestic software consumer market for decades. I get that the focus was necessary and the results have been tremendous. But I think that delayed the kind of software product startup culture that we're seeing now. But it is what it is, I guess.

People like Samurai with their longer and broader view of the Indian IT industry in the developing phase can correct me if I'm wrong, but as a kid interested in computers in the 90s, I remember the the talk by people like Atul Chitnis was about developing software for Indian companies to run their businesses. But after that, for a couple of decades, it was all about taking up work outsourced from US software companies and for years 'Finacle' was the only Indian software product we could use as an example. The past 5 years, I'm seeing the trend of developing software for the domestic market ramping up.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This brings me to another question - would the lay-offs have been so widespread if tech workers were paid normal wages like the rest of the brick & mortar economy.

CEO and executive pay in last 30 years has increased manyfold as compared to the workers. If rising pay is the cause of layoff's all the CEOs who are actually claiming responsibility for over hiring should have been laid off.

The layoffs happened because the companies did not grow at the rate which stock market expected. After a boom 2021 for tech, they tasted blood and wanted more. When 2022 did not bring back the loot, and 2023 looking worse, the CEOs have to show the board that they are doing something. Something visible. What's more visible than laying of 20,000 people in one shot.

The CEOs miscalculated demand and hired more people than what they had work for.