[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by addyhemmige

If I'm not wrong, the last L in the word Malaya'l'am is also pronounced the way 'zh' is pronounced, right??

This is just my understanding. I'd be happy if someone would clarify this.

I love this thread!!!

Yes, In MaLayaLam, first L and second L are pronounced differently. There is no English letter to replace the second one.

'zh' is pronounced differently in Tamil and Malayalam. Karnataka guys struggle to pronounce it, I had tough time teaching this to a Kannadiga.

I love to see some North Karnataka guys join the discussion, I love their Kannada variant!!!

[meerkat]

Originally Posted by tacho

On the other hand, there are plenty of English words with 'th' which are pronounced like the 't' of Maruti.

I'm surprised nobody questioned this! Maybe it is obvious to others, but I'm having a hard time thinking of even one example. Could you please provide just one? Thanks.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by meerkat

I'm surprised nobody questioned this! Maybe it is obvious to others, but I'm having a hard time thinking of even one example. Could you please provide just one? Thanks.

thin, thing, thaw?

<20 characters>

[Edsel Rulez!]

Originally Posted by tacho

thin, thing, thaw?

Nope, none of those words qualify. The fact is that the 'dental t' in Maruti doesn't exist in (UK or US) English. It does in a lot of other European languages though.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by Edsel Rulez!

Nope, none of those words qualify. The fact is that the 'dental t' in Maruti doesn't exist in (UK or US) English. It does in a lot of other European languages though.

I am no expert on pronunciation (of any language) and I have no idea what 'dental t' means.

Except for a slight of puff of air in English, I don't see a big difference in the 'th' of 'with, 'path' etc and the 't' of Maruti. The purpose of my first post (which, for some inexplicable reason, can no longer be found in this thread) was to explain why some South Indians spell it as Maruthi. You really think Indians usually differentiate between 'with, 'path, 'mirth' and 'Maruti'? Surely, Maruti is a lot closer to those words than, say, wit, mat, bat etc.? So, why Maruti and not Maruthi?

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tacho

I am no expert on pronunciation (of any language) and I have no idea what 'dental t' means.

Except for a slight of puff of air in English, I don't see a big difference in the 'th' of 'with, 'path' etc and the 't' of Maruti. The purpose of my first post (which, for some inexplicable reason, can no longer be found in this thread) was to explain why some South Indians spell it as Maruthi. You really think Indians usually differentiate between 'with, 'path, 'mirth' and 'Maruti'? Surely, Maruti is a lot closer to those words than, say, wit, mat, bat etc.? So, why Maruti and not Maruthi?

because in hindi we have another syllable that is represented as 'th', as in 'thoda'. There is an 'h' combined with it. t stands for t as in tata as well as t as in 'teen patti'. 'th' stands for 'th' as in 'thakur' as well as 'th' as in 'thali'.

in hindi we have a system of classifying syllables, called "varga". in each varga, first is the primary sound, second is same sound forced with h, third is a little guttural sound (not sure if that's the right word, french has a specific term for converting t to a d while pronouncing in certain conditions, forgot what it is.), and fourth is guttural with an h.

'ka' varga: Ka, Kha, Ga, Gha (all pronounced with toungue hitting the internal part of upper mouth)

Cha varga: ch, chha, ja, jha, (say quickly and you realize all come from the same part of the mouth))
Ta varga: ta (tata), Tha (thakur), Da (dalda), Dha (dhol baaje)
Ta varga: ta (teen patti), tha (thali), da (dada, 'th' as in that), dha (dhokha, dhoni, dheere dheere).

the last two get complicated because english doesn't have different letter for these.

pa varga: pa, pha, ba, bha

then there are some misc consonants not classified as above.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

because in hindi we have another syllable that is represented as 'th', as in 'thoda'. There is an 'h' combined with it. t stands for t as in tata as well as t as in 'teen patti'. 'th' stands for 'th' as in 'thakur' as well as 'th' as in 'thali'.

My question was rhetorical

The Hindi alphabet is almost exactly the same as Telugu's and I can read both.

My original point was that it was only convention that Hindi words are translated into English the way they are. For example, it could have been just as easy to use 't' for tata and thakur, and 'th' for 'teen' and 'thali'. South Indians' convention is different, if they have any at all.

[meerkat]

Originally Posted by tacho

... it could have been just as easy to use 't' for tata and thakur, and 'th' for 'teen' and 'thali'.

English does not have the sound corresponding to the 't' in teen. So you do the best approximation in the same manner the English themselves do in similar cases (or did when they were in India). 'th' does have two well-defined sounds in English (e.g. in 'this' and 'thanks'), not one of them is the same as that of the 't' in teen. The English never use 'th' to represent the sound of 't' in cases like teen. You can not appropriate someone else's language to suit your own purpose as you choose, and expect it to be universally acceptable. That's why 'theen' or 'Maruthi' or such will never be used outside South India.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by meerkat

English does not have the sound corresponding to the 't' in teen. So you do the best approximation in the same manner the English themselves do in similar cases (or did when they were in India). 'th' does have two well-defined sounds in English (e.g. in 'this' and 'thanks'), not one of them is the same as that of the 't' in teen. The English never use 'th' to represent the sound of 't' in cases like teen. You can not appropriate someone else's language to suit your own purpose as you choose, and expect it to be universally acceptable. That's why 'theen' or 'Maruthi' or such will never be used outside South India.

I don't know what the English did when they were in India. Since, according to you, English doesn't even have the 't' sound of Maruti, why isn't Maruthi the best approximation? You win if you can show me an English word with the letter t but with the pronunciation of Maru't'i (I don't expect you to, because you just said English doesn't have that sound).

By the way, I checked with a native speaker of English, an Indian-American friend whose wife's name is Preeti (he spells it that way, ) who said the 't' of Pree't'i and the 'th' of thing are the same. Not that it proves anything, but I wanted to put it out there

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tacho

I don't know what the English did when they were in India. Since, according to you, English doesn't even have the 't' sound of Maruti, why isn't Maruthi the best approximation? You win if you can show me an English word with the letter t but with the pronunciation of Maru't'i (I don't expect you to, because you just said English doesn't have that sound).

By the way, I checked with a native speaker of English, an Indian-American friend whose wife's name is Preeti (he spells it that way, ) who said the 't' of Pree't'i and the 'th' of thing are the same. Not that it proves anything, but I wanted to put it out there

because 'h' include a forced 'h' sound, and is better suited for 'thakur' and 'thali'. Can you explain how including an 'h' converts it from 't' of 'tata' to 't' of 'teen/preeti'.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

Can you explain how including an 'h' converts it from 't' of 'tata' to 't' of 'teen/preeti'.

The same way bat becomes bath.

Would you use the second letter of the second 'ta' varga to write bath in Hindi?

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tacho

The same way bat becomes bath.

Would you use the second letter of the second 'ta' varga to write bath in Hindi?

yes, same with theory, theme, thigh. How do you write it?

[tacho]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

yes, same with theory, theme, thigh. How do you write it?

aaaah

I will definitely use the first letter of the second 'ta' varga for the 'th' in bath, path, breath, with, width etc.

If the 'th' appears earlier in the word, like in theme or thigh, I will use either the first or the second 'ta's depending on my mood and how I pronounce the word at that moment. Now, I hope you begin to understand the South Indian confusion

The way I see it, I use the second 'ta' only if there is a fairly strong 'h' sound.

If North Indians unequivocally use the second 'ta' for North, South, path, froth etc., I need to hand it to you guys, at least for your consistency

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tacho

aaaah

I will definitely use the first letter of the second 'ta' varga for the 'th' in bath, path, breath, with, width etc.

If the 'th' appears earlier in the word, like in theme or thigh, I will use either the first or the second 'ta's depending on my mood and how I pronounce the word at that moment. Now, I hope you begin to understand the South Indian confusion

The way I see it, I use the second 'ta' only if there is a fairly strong 'h' sound.

If North Indians unequivocally use the second 'ta' for North, South, path, froth etc., I need to hand it to you guys, at least for your consistency

forget about south and north indian for a moment. We need to know how a british pronounces all these words. We are speaking in English for queen's sake.

[tacho]

Originally Posted by tacho

aaaah

I will definitely use the first letter of the second 'ta' varga for the 'th' in bath, path, breath, with, width etc.

If the 'th' appears earlier in the word, like in theme or thigh, I will use either the first or the second 'ta's depending on my mood and how I pronounce the word at that moment. Now, I hope you begin to understand the South Indian confusion

The way I see it, I use the second 'ta' only if there is a fairly strong 'h' sound.

If North Indians unequivocally use the second 'ta' for North, South, path, froth etc., I need to hand it to you guys, at least for your consistency

Sorry for the confusion in this post.

When I say first 'ta', I meant first letter of second 'ta' varga
second 'ta' = second letter of second 'ta' varga