[Ragul]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

yes but are citizens in india REALLY electing their leaders?

Of course not!!

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

we are an apathetic race by and large. the general attitude is one of selfishness
manifested in as simple a thing as chucking one's rubbish on the street - with the attitude that hey, my home is clean - i couldnt care less what happens outside my house.
we are also a nation of nirvana seekers for the self - which is why we do not tend to unite and attack a problem.
plus, ours is at best a very loose sort of unity in diversity - we are so ethnically diverse and in a way our ethnic diversity creates feelings of parochialism and a desire to flock together in little micro-cosmic communities of our own ethnic extraction.
this is why local politicians are able to remain in power by invoking the power of their own little ethnic minorities.
also we are a lazy race with a strong tendency towards "laissez faire" - we've all seen it on the streets and in times of strife. while our own soldiers were dying in Kargil far away to the North or in Sri Lanka during the IPKF peace keeping force times, the rest of India was busy going about its daily business of earning its daily bread without sparing a thought. also - in all honesty if we see an injustice being done on the street- lets ask ourselves how many of us will stop and try to intervene on the side of the person who is "right" or on the side of the "victim". most times we would prefer to turn a Nelson's eye and continue on our own business.
this is one of the reasons that evildoers in India think they are pretty much immune when they do such evil. this coupled with the National apathy, results in the situation in which we are right now.
I dont think there will be a revolution against corruption - what can probably happen is a revolution of the "have-nots" against the "haves" because the disparity is growing wider with each passing day. Worst case, we may have a social revolution on the lines of France in the eighteenth century or Russia or Cuba in the twentieth century.
I love my country with all its faults but that does not make me blind to some of these glaring issues.
My submission is that a similar situation in China may cause their people to unite and fight largely on account of an overall ethnic similarity across that country. Whereas here in India this is less likely to happen.

I think many of the reasons you attributed to Indian society are just how the symptoms appear superficially - the warts and boils ..but not the real cause of the disease. For example did the American economy stop and grind to a halt when they went to war at Afghanistan? That would spell disaster. Yes we can blame people for not being politically active, but politics in our public life is ruined from the start with hooliganism in the campus. Maybe that's where people learn to stay away from it all?

While I strongly agree on the selfishness part. I have had long believed there is a hidden epidemic in contemporary Indian society - one of Narcissism. I see more often than not, narcissistic proclivities influencing our social behavior more than "desired" for a fair and happy society. It runs in families, parents, fathers, mothers, grandparents too perhaps. (Very personal to my world view, but the fact that families watch the trash on TV extensively rather than occasionally, is a sigh of a deep rooted malaise in society - I consider it as bad as alcohol addiction, only it also affects womenfolk too, and is not considered a social problem. Not to offend anybody here again, Pardon me) Edit: The point being TV is contributing to hedonistic outlook and amplifying narcissistic traits in people that is deteriorating society further.

As for the lack of unity I would say it is more a lack of common ideological inspiration, with fragmented subgroups that no longer perform optimally as a cohesive whole - largely due to historical reasons.

But to me a bigger danger lurking is the attempt at forging an artificial unity and a more "modern" concept of India based on a modern anglicized education, outlook, or worldview.

On that note there was book I browsed once that described how despite of our modern society all our social behavior is governed by primitive tribal instincts. Waiting to spot it again so I can pick it up ...

So rather than fight it and denounce all ethnic or linguistic groupings, maybe we need to learn to harness and use it once again to our gain.

Cheers

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

Prince_pervez,

Pls see the complete sentence

I read it and I agree with the people of Egypt. World leaders may think what they think of him but then the Egyptian people are not happy, hence the uprising. If he was anything what the world leader thought there would be harmony and not uprising.
Besides the my post was to highlight the favourite and golden words 'US & Israel" were uttered earlier by you and no one pointed out that, untill I uttered them.

Sorry for the OT -Whether you like it or not the fact of the matter is that Israel is there to stay whether Mubarak stays or not.

They are too brilliant & smart to lose.

They are the decendants of Issac, they are brilliant and unique. Sad they did not put it into constructive ways and only concentrated on world dominance using Puppets like Mubarak and the ones in the middle east and our neighbours. When it comes to us we meekly sign the proliferation treaties after getting a few goodies as and when dictated. We do not oppose as we know their systems of world goverance at will are in place and we are not ready to take them on.

Just to refresh on the History a bit -The Israel - Egypt peace treaty was signed in 1979 when Anwar Sadat was president. Even though Mubarak was VP since 1975 he took over the presidency only in 1981 after Sadat's assassination. The Egyptians signed the treaty after going to war with the Israelis in 1948,56,67,69 & 73 and every time they fought a War Egypt became smaller on the world map so finally Sadat decided that he wanted a country big enough to rule and signed the peace treaty

I would say w/o any sarcasm that your history is perfect. I appreciate that. But, I would also think that you would know what they are doing and how they are doing to the world. I perfectly understand you cannot bring that to light as 'it is some other people that we don't like which are getting clobbered right and left so we will join and enjoy the show". Swimming against the current is tougher than riding the wave.

But one thing is for sure, it is not going to last. India was one of the foremost target of 'these' rulers which got outsed by some collective effort from us Indians together, not one community or caste. And before leaving they created a divide which lasts to date.
Right now their feathers are ruffled just because the peace treaty is under compromise. And am sure not many are enjoying it. Ohh they will fall like all tyrannts have, only sad part is the internet and media won't be around, so that I can start a thread on it. Thats the saddest part.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

From the recent developments in Egypt a 'new' term has emerged from nowhere. 'Pro-Mubarak Protesters'. Lol! Classic divide and rule plot. Initially there were no 'pro-Mubarak'. Everyone was against him. Now some wise guy will 'emerge' who will again be some pro-western puppet supporting the cause of Israel and US. Obviously some people have been purchased for fighting the anti-mubarak mob.
Why can't we have this in India, because we are already divided on the basis of religion. We like to see each others blood on the roads and like to mock one and another. So it is public against public. Not public against tyrannt goverments.

I haven't seen/heard Pro-Mubarak thing as yet, but I guess like all conflicts, there would be two sides. Its natural. Let's not give it some other name.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

Can we keep Israel and US out of it? This thread has already been on scrutiny from moderators.

I don't think US and Israel can be kept out of it. They are direct affected parties of this conglict/revolution/strife in Egypt!

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

I read it and I agree with the people of Egypt. World leaders may think what they think of him but then the Egyptian people are not happy, hence the uprising. If he was anything what the world leader thought there would be harmony and not uprising.

Mubarak was good for some time but like all rulers who serve for a long period they become uninspiring, morose and could do no wrong after some time. See what happened with Jyoti Basu in Bengal.

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I haven't seen/heard Pro-Mubarak thing as yet, but I guess like all conflicts, there would be two sides. Its natural. Let's not give it some other name.

@MileCruncher. I too heard it for the first time this morning at breakfast. Aparantly there are 2 sides now. One who supports Mubarak and the other does not. I agree that names should not be given but those exact words were flashed around on CNN and Fox.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

I read it and I agree with the people of Egypt. World leaders may think what they think of him but then the Egyptian people are not happy, hence the uprising. If he was anything what the world leader thought there would be harmony and not uprising.
Besides the my post was to highlight the favourite and golden words 'US & Israel" were uttered earlier by you and no one pointed out that, untill I uttered them.

They are the decendants of Issac, they are brilliant and unique. Sad they did not put it into constructive ways and only concentrated on world dominance using Puppets like Mubarak and the ones in the middle east and our neighbours. When it comes to us we meekly sign the proliferation treaties after getting a few goodies as and when dictated. We do not oppose as we know their systems of world goverance at will are in place and we are not ready to take them on.



I would say w/o any sarcasm that your history is perfect. I appreciate that. But, I would also think that you would know what they are doing and how they are doing to the world. I perfectly understand you cannot bring that to light as 'it is some other people that we don't like which are getting clobbered right and left so we will join and enjoy the show". Swimming against the current is tougher than riding the wave.

But one thing is for sure, it is not going to last. India was one of the foremost target of 'these' rulers which got outsed by some collective effort from us Indians together, not one community or caste. And before leaving they created a divide which lasts to date.
Right now their feathers are ruffled just because the peace treaty is under compromise. And am sure not many are enjoying it. Ohh they will fall like all tyrannts have, only sad part is the internet and media won't be around, so that I can start a thread on it. Thats the saddest part.

Mods - Sorry again for the OT.

I'm not an Israeli supporter nor do I have anything against the Arabs

I don't condone whatever is being done by the Israelis nor do I agree to the American world view.

But I do strongly believe in Israel's right to exist as a nation and I'm sure that if the Arabs do the same 90% of the problems would be solved.

Israelis are unduly worried about the fall of Mubarak because they fear that groups like Muslim Brotherhood would have a major stake in the new Govt and they might hamper the peace treaty which has stood for 30+ years.

If you go back to History you can find instances of Tomfoolery by an elder statesman like Nasser who was the co-founder of NAM with Nehru, Tito,Sukarno & Nkrumah. Nasser launched the War of Attrition against Israel in 68 and his rationale was this - quoting from Wikipedia - "If the enemy succeeds in inflicting three-thousand casualties in this campaign, we can go on fighting nevertheless, because we have manpower reserves. If we succeed in inflicting ten-thousand casualties, he will unavoidably find himself compelled to stop fighting, because he has no manpower reserves."

So if Nasser had come up with such stupid rationales Israel has to be worried about an inimical disposition in Cairo after Mubarak.

I still have maps from Saudi at home on which Israel is blacked out. My passport shows a Visa from Jordan & Egypt but not Israel! Why? It is because if you have an Israeli immigration stamp on your passport majority of the Arab nations will deny you a Visa and not to put travelers to hardships the Israelis only gives paper visas which are duly collected when you exit Israel!

Egypt & Jordan have recognized Israel as a state and Israel has signed peace treaties with them in 1979 & 1994 and since then they have had peaceful relations so far.

So I feel that the rest of the Arab nations has to stop being oblivious to the ground realities and should set their hate aside to make peace with the Israelis.

But for that to happen they have to mature a lot and I don't see that happening in the near future.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I don't think US and Israel can be kept out of it. They are direct affected parties of this conglict/revolution/strife in Egypt!

Mubarak was good for some time but like all rulers who serve for a long period they become uninspiring, morose and could do no wrong after some time. See what happened with Jyoti Basu in Bengal.

+ 1. Very objective observations

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

Mods - Sorry again for the OT.

I'm not an Israeli supporter nor do I have anything against the Arabs

Actually the real problem comes from how they got the Israeli state made. Briton gave a tiny piece of land in 1948. From there they pushed the palestinans away from their land rendering them into a refugee status. Since the onset was incorrect the remaining does not matter. Right now you and I both know the plight of the Palestine and its people. From a tiny tot to a state with Aqsa/Jerusalem with them by slaughter/land grabbing. If the Arabs had tortured them earlier then it was justified to what they are doing to the Arabs right now. Unfortunately it was Hitler who understood 'who' is in his path of world dominance and tried to eliminate them first. But I think there are many people who like to turn a blind eye to this fact.Perhaps because of the fact that currently only the Muslim/Arab nations are opposing policies dictated by these people and the rest are agreeing to every move they make. So it has not come to us yet. Once these non-conforming people are linked to Al-Crapa (like Iran is now for not signing the nuclear treaty) and eliminated, then there will be a time on us when we will be told which of the two children/offspring we should keep based on intelligence. Impossible ? Wait and see. Then we will be affected. As of now, its them, so lets sit back and enjoy the show.

[jalex77]

Originally Posted by Daewood

+1

> A country knee deep in corruption

I would beg to differ on that one, We are a country neck deep in corruption. They are even going to water down the Right To information Act,2005 so that the babus can get away with what they do. Its hard to digest that even a lot of judges along with the former Chief Justice of India have serious allegations against them. How can people not be shocked when they hear that a lady Magistrate in Mumbai was riding trains without taking tickets and was threatening the Ticket collectors when asked for the ticket. Its just a small relief that she was thrown out of service. How can they do this?

Its very worse than you think. I know this out of a lot of personal experiences on the job.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Actually the real problem comes from how they got the Israeli state made. Briton gave a tiny piece of land in 1948. From there they pushed the palestinans away from their land rendering them into a refugee status. Since the onset was incorrect the remaining does not matter. Right now you and I both know the plight of the Palestine and its people. From a tiny tot to a state with Aqsa/Jerusalem with them by slaughter/land grabbing. If the Arabs had tortured them earlier then it was justified to what they are doing to the Arabs right now. Unfortunately it was Hitler who understood 'who' is in his path of world dominance and tried to eliminate them first. But I think there are many people who like to turn a blind eye to this fact.

My point is very plain & simple. They have fought many wars and lot of blood has been spilled. There is no point in going back to History to correct anomalies that have happened. The Arabs have clearly understood that the Israelis cannot be militarily defeated.
Might be wishful thinking but I feel that the best course of action would be for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, Saudis etc to recognize Israel and make peace with them and I'm sure that the belligerent Israelis would surely come around if they feel that by this action the threat to their homeland is significantly reduced.

Peace would not happen without genuine compromises and sadly that is not happening at the moment.

OT - I'm going off to Bed. Will continue tomorrow. Hope that the mods don't infract me for going OT. I feel that this is all a related discussion

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

My point is very plain & simple. They have fought many wars and lot of blood has been spilled. There is no point in going back to History to correct anomalies that have happened.

Agreed.

The Arabs have clearly understood that the Israelis cannot be militarily defeated.

Agreed again! But with some more to it. There is no one on the face of this earth, no person, no country, that can match Israel in its military and brain power. Wishful thinking is they could have made peace instead of so many wars and innocent killings with their intellect.

Might be wishful thinking but I feel that the best course of action would be for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, Saudis etc to recognize Israel and make peace with them and I'm sure that the belligerent Israelis would surely come around if they feel that by this action the threat to their homeland is significantly reduced.

Its like a cat chasing its tail. Arabs say "Give Palestinians their land" and the Israelis say no. So peace can never prevail. Time for Jesus to come ? Hell yes !!

Peace would not happen without genuine compromises and sadly that is not happening at the moment.

Amen. And lets keep it at that. It was nice interacting with a knowledgeable guy who can tell what is what. I liked this discussion.

[CaliAtenza]

hopefully the mods dont shut this thread down again.

Anyways, its escalating to a whole another level. If anyone would turn on the news, you can see the military using APCs and/or Tanks to herd people out of Tarhir Square. Earlier today they showed a charge of guys on horses and camels litterally hitting and whipping people out of the way.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by msetlur

Point 3 in maddy's post above is probably one of the major reasons for the sad state of affairs in our country. The middle class here has become so cynical over the years that they are not the least interested in who gets elected.

To Pervez's point on independence, we probably need another mass movement to rid us of all the ills our society faces today. Easier said than done, but it did happen

The middle class doesnt care because they are getting rich. Why would they care, regardless of how corrupt or inefficient the government is. I know that India is far better off than its neighbors, but how can India call itself a superpower when nearly 50% of its population lives on less than $2 a day ?? The good parts of government have not reached these people unfortunetly. I think its only by God's grace that India has managed to keep democracy since Independence, or its just the politicians pulling the wool over people's eyes.

If change has to happen in India, it has to start from the bottom up. No one here wants to address the corruption in the Police or Civil Servant class. I feel like i keep crying hoarse about that. Every time each one of us pays a bribe to the Police, it just perpetuates the problem. So if we want the system to change, it has to start there. When people realize that the vast majority of the Police force in this country dont care about the people (they just care about fattening their pockets) and the people rise up against that, then all the other changes can take place.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I don't think US and Israel can be kept out of it. They are direct affected parties of this conglict/revolution/strife in Egypt!

I thought the thread was started to discuss if india has similar issues and we will see a similar uprising.

Going by your discussions, the underlying cause of this revolution is far beyond Egyptian boundaries. I thought it was about common people being suppressed for a long time.

From that angle, I can think of only pakistan and china encroaching into India that can roughly relate to Egypt's problems. We can imagine a revolution that can bring down our current politicians and put new leaders in power who can teach a lesson to these two rogue nations.

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

If change has to happen in India, it has to start from the bottom up. No one here wants to address the corruption in the Police or Civil Servant class. I feel like i keep crying hoarse about that. Every time each one of us pays a bribe to the Police, it just perpetuates the problem. So if we want the system to change, it has to start there. When people realize that the vast majority of the Police force in this country dont care about the people (they just care about fattening their pockets) and the people rise up against that, then all the other changes can take place.

Good point! Atleast if we can have the basic administration correct like Ration card, passport, Police, traffic cops etc etc in place, the general public will be happy. If at all one has to be corrupt then please take it to a higher level w/o affecting the commoner like me.

[maddy42]

Pro Mubarak Supporters are running riot. Would have happened now that all the tank drivers are on the protesters side mubarak will have to depend on horses. Next what bow and arrows?

We will never do anything unless the danger knocks our door. People cannot push a file without a bribe. Recent case: Man went to file an FIR and request seizure of a gun as a threat was made for the Mans life. Police refused to file a case come what may as they claimed there was a land dispute case pending in court and thus the issue was subjudice.

Did the man get justice? NO