[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Good point! Atleast if we can have the basic administration correct like Ration card, passport, Police, traffic cops etc etc in place, the general public will be happy. If at all one has to be corrupt then please take it to a higher level w/o affecting the commoner like me.

There is corruption all over the world, but in the West, the corruption is at the higher ups. When do you really ever see politicians in India going to jail over corruption? And if they do, they are out in no time. If the basic administration in India is good/gets better, than things will improve across the board. This isnt politics, this is the ruling class and civil servants fleecing people for all they got. Problem is, i dont see people taking a stand. This could be do to a. They have enough money and they dont care and they will just pay their way through it (sadly we have all done it here :( ), b. they feel powerless to change the system, c. they are frustrated, but have no outlet to express to that frustration or d. all of the above.

[MileCruncher]

Looks like this is spreading like Wild Fire

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/wo...ref=middleeast

Part to read is

Changing cabinets is not new for King Abdullah. In his 12 years on the throne, he has done so eight times. But this was the first time that he had done so in reaction to public pressure, seeking to undermine a growing protest movement across a broad spectrum of society and to pre-empt further unrest. It came after four weeks of unusual public demonstrations.

[lohithrao]

Like mentioned above, we are a selfish breed which post independence is only worried about ourselfs! but how long we stay ignorant to the numerous pricking issues am sure none knows...

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by lohithrao

Like mentioned above, we are a selfish breed which post independence is only worried about ourselfs! but how long we stay ignorant to the numerous pricking issues am sure none knows...

eventually it will come out, but how that will be, no one knows untill it happens. But better it gets solved sooner rather than later. It will be a LONG process though, nothing happens overnight. The problem is, the few of us talking about it here will not solve the problem. The solution will be found in the downtrodden masses, the have nots, those people who are at the mercy of the rich and and the ruling class.

[shankar.balan]

2 wrongs never will make a right.
the Israelis (Hebrew) feel that as victims of the holocaust the rest of the world owes them something.
The Palestinians that they are driving off their land must be feeling the same.
The sad thing is that both belong to the same ethnic stock.
Quite a similar scenarion to Punjab/Pakistan - J&K and parts of Pakistan.
Sad but reality is always pretty harsh.

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Agreed.

Agreed again! But with some more to it. There is no one on the face of this earth, no person, no country, that can match Israel in its military and brain power. Wishful thinking is they could have made peace instead of so many wars and innocent killings with their intellect.

Its like a cat chasing its tail. Arabs say "Give Palestinians their land" and the Israelis say no. So peace can never prevail. Time for Jesus to come ? Hell yes !!

Amen. And lets keep it at that. It was nice interacting with a knowledgeable guy who can tell what is what. I liked this discussion.

[Wolfheart]

Originally Posted by Ragul

On that note there was book I browsed once that described how despite of our modern society all our social behavior is governed by primitive tribal instincts. Waiting to spot it again so I can pick it up ...

It's not just in India but with many other communities such as African Americans, Indigenous Australians and Romani people in Europe. Communities with milllenia old cultures and traditions that have been ingrained in their collective psyches will not become completely modern (read westernised) in a span of 50, 60 or even 200 years.

Please do PM me the name of that book. I would very much like to read it. Thanks!

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

2 wrongs never will make a right.
the Israelis (Hebrew) feel that as victims of the holocaust the rest of the world owes them something.
The Palestinians that they are driving off their land must be feeling the same.
The sad thing is that both belong to the same ethnic stock.
Quite a similar scenarion to Punjab/Pakistan - J&K and parts of Pakistan.
Sad but reality is always pretty harsh.

Well Parvez and Balan point is how long in the history one should go ?
If you notice on the map the boundaries between various Arab countries are almost straight lines. This is due to the fact that after fall of Ottoman Turk Empire and expansion of British Empire the whole area was under British dominion. They created these Arab states and like they created the Arab state they felt fully justified in creating an Israel.

They installed various puppet tribal chiefs who later succeeded as Kings and Monarchs of free Arab states. Some of them were overthrown by likes of Saddam. It would be wrong to say that entire stretch of land always belonged to the nomadic tribes and no other people have rights to settle there.

There are Arab citizens in Israel they can vote have equal rights and they are freer then the Arabs in Gaza strip , It was hot hotheadedness of 6 Arab states and need for Soviet Union to prop them up and America to oppose which brought the situation to this sorry state.

Anwar Sadat understood that he can not move forward without bringing the peace because Israel is Oil of Egypt West poured in the money to keep the peace between Egypt and Israel.

[markmytravel]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

The allegations are mostly true though. Im not talking about the higher up positions, im talking about local politics. Politicians paying people to vote for them or seducing them with material goods, does not constitute a free and fair election. I do agree with you that politicians have learned to step down peacefully and hand over power when they have been defeated.

But corruption in public servants, like in the police forces as i discussed in my last post, is the first thing that needs to change.

We only tend to point fingers at government officials when it comes to curroption. How we tend to forget our contribution is something which bothers me more. Most of the businesses running in India (big or small) shy away from paying taxes and will go a long way in paying bribes and offcourse blame the system without even trying. The big fat indian weddings are 90% illegally financed and we love them. How many of us who blame the govt have actually asked our parents to stay away from them. I am sure many of us blaming have their family members working in public offices doing the same thing (no offence meant to anybody) and we never bother about it. And honestly given a chance, we won't miss the oppurtunity to make money the wrong way. It's just that we are to be equally blamed for what is happening and surely have had the piece of the cake albeit a small one.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Agreed.

Agreed again! But with some more to it. There is no one on the face of this earth, no person, no country, that can match Israel in its military and brain power. Wishful thinking is they could have made peace instead of so many wars and innocent killings with their intellect.

Its like a cat chasing its tail. Arabs say "Give Palestinians their land" and the Israelis say no. So peace can never prevail. Time for Jesus to come ? Hell yes !!

Amen. And lets keep it at that. It was nice interacting with a knowledgeable guy who can tell what is what. I liked this discussion.

Thank you. Even I liked it.

I guess the Arabs did not give the Israelis a chance for peace in the beginning by attacking them the very next day that they declared independence and probably with all that at the back of their minds they are rubbing it in every time the Arabs poked at them.

They are a very small state and does lack strategic depth. They cannot afford to lose a War. A loss means total annihilation and that is precisely why their military doctrine has some pillars like Credible deterrence, Pre-emptive strikes, decisive action etc. Their strategy has always been to take the war to the enemy territory in the shortest possible time. So every time the Arabs have poked them they have acted decisively and ensured that they have always pressed on the advantage to secure territory which will act as buffer zones in future (e.g - Golan Heights, Sinai) and bargaining chips during a ceasefire agreement.

If Sadat & King Hussein could make peace with them keeping aside their bitterness I'm sure that the Syrians & other Arab nations could do that as well. And after the peace agreements with Egypt & Jordan there have been no issues between them & Israel

Originally Posted by amitk26

Well Parvez and Balan point is how long in the history one should go ?
If you notice on the map the boundaries between various Arab countries are almost straight lines. This is due to the fact that after fall of Ottoman Turk Empire and expansion of British Empire the whole area was under British dominion. They created these Arab states and like they created the Arab state they felt fully justified in creating an Israel.

They installed various puppet tribal chiefs who later succeeded as Kings and Monarchs of free Arab states. Some of them were overthrown by likes of Saddam. It would be wrong to say that entire stretch of land always belonged to the nomadic tribes and no other people have rights to settle there.

There are Arab citizens in Israel they can vote have equal rights and they are freer then the Arabs in Gaza strip , It was hot hotheadedness of 6 Arab states and need for Soviet Union to prop them up and America to oppose which brought the situation to this sorry state.

Anwar Sadat understood that he can not move forward without bringing the peace because Israel is Oil of Egypt West poured in the money to keep the peace between Egypt and Israel.

+1, Now that is a very objective view

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

Their strategy has always been to take the war to the enemy territory in the shortest possible time. So every time the Arabs have poked them they have acted decisively and ensured that they have always pressed on the advantage to secure territory which will act as buffer zones in future (e.g - Golan Heights, Sinai) and bargaining chips during a ceasefire agreement.

Aah! Now this is a point where I can debate because I know stuff about this. The Israelis(Jews/Hebrews/Arab Isrealites) were driven away from the 'Holy Land' ages back (not at all by Arabs). And now they have developed themselves in such a way that they can take back that land forcibly rendering many palestinians as refugees in their own country and no one can stop them. If there is Arab resistance they give it back in larger numbers. But earlier their main goal was to procure what they call as the holy land, and before it, do all the international ground work. This has taken no less than 300 years of meticulous calculation right from when Britain started invading countries, till US came to power and now till date.If you see the borders it practially ends at Jerusalem (west side) as the have their holy land secured now + the balance of power is slowly shifting from US to the state of Israel after the year 2001 (after 9/11 to be precise).
So since these Arabs cannot match them militarily (plus nothing is theirs, everything is controlled by world powers etc etc) all they can do is put sanctions like not issuing VISAS to people who have come out of Israel and such small things which don't really matter as people have work arounds for such things.
But to project the Arabs in poor light is wrong. As the way they have procured the lands which no longer belonged to them by torture/rape/killing and even now, that is why there is a Arab resistance and anger. So no one can say it out of time pass or jealously or poking for no reason.
Egypt and Jordan are kept quiet using puppets and since their puppet in Egypt is being threatened, Benjamin Netanyahu is keeping a close watch and making sure that the peace treaty is not compromised.

Now that we have history and current affairs in place let talk about the future.
Once the balance of power is transferred and all the puppets are in place (their banking/monetary system is already in place via paper and electronic money) then please watchout for a well built man with curly hair and a defective eye. When you see him, know that the 'Golden Age" has come for them.
Whats wrong with that ? Why am I so worried ? Nothing to worry, there will be just dictator state. I can go about this more and more till the point of people saying that I have gone insane. But brothers whats the use of digging a well when you are thirsty ? There are so so many people directly and indirectly telling us to be safe, e.g buy precious metals and keep very less cash balance. The controllers of electronic money can strip down an country of their economy. Eg. Recently Dubai (where people came running back to India. Malaysia is another eg.) At an individual level what will you do if one of your child is forced to join the army to defend a cause which no one knows or is justified, or pay up for a tax out of your earnings to feed the state ? This is nothing but slavery. People who revolt against it will be taken to task. Look at Guantanamo bay. You can find all the people who tried to give monetary assistance to Palestine there. Ofcourse they were branded as terrorists. Your every transaction can be monitered and documented. Only mistake they did was used bank accounts, which can be traced to that individual. And whose accounting system is this ? You guessed right. This is just some examples. But there is hope.
Whatever it is I can just bring somethings to light. To act or ignore is choice of individuals.
I think I can end with this. It pains when people go with the flow of media and pure hate. Please remember me just once when all this unfolds. May God be with us.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Aah! Now this is a point where I can debate because I know stuff about this. The Israelis(Jews/Hebrews/Arab Isrealites) were driven away from the 'Holy Land' ages back (not at all by Arabs). And now they have developed themselves in such a way that they can take back that land forcibly rendering many palestinians as refugees in their own country and no one can stop them. If there is Arab resistance they give it back in larger numbers. But earlier their main goal was to procure what they call as the holy land, and before it, do all the international ground work. This has taken no less than 300 years of meticulous calculation right from when Britain started invading countries, till US came to power and now till date.If you see the borders it practially ends at Jerusalem (west side) as the have their holy land secured now + the balance of power is slowly shifting from US to the state of Israel after the year 2001 (after 9/11 to be precise).
So since these Arabs cannot match them militarily (plus nothing is theirs, everything is controlled by world powers etc etc) all they can do is put sanctions like not issuing VISAS to people who have come out of Israel and such small things which don't really matter as people have work arounds for such things.
But to project the Arabs in poor light is wrong. As the way they have procured the lands which no longer belonged to them by torture/rape/killing and even now, that is why there is a Arab resistance and anger. So no one can say it out of time pass or jealously or poking for no reason.
Egypt and Jordan are kept quiet using puppets and since their puppet in Egypt is being threatened, Benjamin Netanyahu is keeping a close watch and making sure that the peace treaty is not compromised.

Now that we have history and current affairs in place let talk about the future.
Once the balance of power is transferred and all the puppets are in place (their banking/monetary system is already in place via paper and electronic money) then please watchout for a well built man with curly hair and a defective eye. When you see him, know that the 'Golden Age" has come for them.
Whats wrong with that ? Why am I so worried ? Nothing to worry, there will be just dictator state. I can go about this more and more till the point of people saying that I have gone insane. But brothers whats the use of digging a well when you are thirsty ? There are so so many people directly and indirectly telling us to be safe, e.g buy precious metals and keep very less cash balance. The controllers of electronic money can strip down an country of their economy. Eg. Recently Dubai (where people came running back to India. Malaysia is another eg.) At an individual level what will you do if one of your child is forced to join the army to defend a cause which no one knows or is justified, or pay up for a tax out of your earnings to feed the state ? This is nothing but slavery. People who revolt against it will be taken to task. Look at Guantanamo bay. You can find all the people who tried to give monetary assistance to Palestine there. Ofcourse they were branded as terrorists. Your every transaction can be monitered and documented. Only mistake they did was used bank accounts, which can be traced to that individual. And whose accounting system is this ? You guessed right. This is just some examples. But there is hope.
Whatever it is I can just bring somethings to light. To act or ignore is choice of individuals.
I think I can end with this. It pains when people go with the flow of media and pure hate. Please remember me just once when all this unfolds. May God be with us.

Interesting topic here But I'm not falling for it. It would be completely OT to reply to all this. That I feel would be a discussion for another day and another thread if the Mods agree.

A note of caution though!

I can infer from your location that you are typing all this from the US and I feel that it is the wrong place for that. It is risky to do so and I would suggest you to refrain from doing that for your own safety. Hope you are aware of something called ECHELON - Echelon (signals intelligence) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Be careful buddy Uncle Sam is watching

NB: When you are in Bangalore pls PM me and we will have an off-line discussion about the same.

[prince_pervez]

^^Talking about it fine. Starting a movement, breaking the system etc etc is not fine. If talking was bad, people like, Alex Jones, Colbert, Jason Bermas Imran Hossien would be the first ones to be arrested. I am not for breaking the system any way. It is destined to happen. Let nature take its course. Stopping the inevitable is not my cup of tea. Why should I even attempt to ?

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Aah! Now this is a point where I can debate because I know stuff about this. The Israelis(Jews/Hebrews/Arab Isrealites) were driven away from the 'Holy Land' ages back (not at all by Arabs). And now they have developed themselves in such a way that they can take back that land forcibly rendering many palestinians as refugees in their own country and no one can stop them. If there is Arab resistance they give it back in larger numbers. But earlier their main goal was to procure what they call as the holy land, and before it, do all the international ground work. This has taken no less than 300 years of meticulous calculation right from when Britain started invading countries, till US came to power and now till date.If you see the borders it practially ends at Jerusalem (west side) as the have their holy land secured now + the balance of power is slowly shifting from US to the state of Israel after the year 2001 (after 9/11 to be precise).
So since these Arabs cannot match them militarily (plus nothing is theirs, everything is controlled by world powers etc etc) all they can do is put sanctions like not issuing VISAS to people who have come out of Israel and such small things which don't really matter as people have work arounds for such things.
But to project the Arabs in poor light is wrong. As the way they have procured the lands which no longer belonged to them by torture/rape/killing and even now, that is why there is a Arab resistance and anger. So no one can say it out of time pass or jealously or poking for no reason.
Egypt and Jordan are kept quiet using puppets and since their puppet in Egypt is being threatened, Benjamin Netanyahu is keeping a close watch and making sure that the peace treaty is not compromised.

Now that we have history and current affairs in place let talk about the future.
Once the balance of power is transferred and all the puppets are in place (their banking/monetary system is already in place via paper and electronic money) then please watchout for a well built man with curly hair and a defective eye. When you see him, know that the 'Golden Age" has come for them.
Whats wrong with that ? Why am I so worried ? Nothing to worry, there will be just dictator state. I can go about this more and more till the point of people saying that I have gone insane. But brothers whats the use of digging a well when you are thirsty ? There are so so many people directly and indirectly telling us to be safe, e.g buy precious metals and keep very less cash balance. The controllers of electronic money can strip down an country of their economy. Eg. Recently Dubai (where people came running back to India. Malaysia is another eg.) At an individual level what will you do if one of your child is forced to join the army to defend a cause which no one knows or is justified, or pay up for a tax out of your earnings to feed the state ? This is nothing but slavery. People who revolt against it will be taken to task. Look at Guantanamo bay. You can find all the people who tried to give monetary assistance to Palestine there. Ofcourse they were branded as terrorists. Your every transaction can be monitered and documented. Only mistake they did was used bank accounts, which can be traced to that individual. And whose accounting system is this ? You guessed right. This is just some examples. But there is hope.
Whatever it is I can just bring somethings to light. To act or ignore is choice of individuals.
I think I can end with this. It pains when people go with the flow of media and pure hate. Please remember me just once when all this unfolds. May God be with us.

man u must hate/dislike Jewish and Israeli people. Anyways, to prevent from going OT, hopefully things in India change for the better. Like i said, its gotta start from the bottom up and from people who are fed up with the system. The day that someone publically stands up to a crooked cop or public servant, and the story gets run over and over again on cable news networks, is the day that change will have finally begun. I already did my job of standing up to a crooked cop , so someone has to be next .

[airbender]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

It will take a lot for such a thing to happen in India. Last time we did this. We got independence.

You have put it so nicely. Even now we need independence from the corrupt.

[sanjaykaul]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Last time we did this. We got independence.

Loved it.

But guess what -- we again need Independence