[alpha1]

Originally Posted by theexperthand

1. Ola claims that all their cars are in pristine condition, but in reality, many of the cabs are not in top notch condition. Personally, my wife had to endure a driver switching off the AC since the cab was not pulling with AC on, and have seen not so good condition cabs arriving to pick up my brother\Sister multiple times.

Ola bills travel time at 1rs/min scale.

2. Now, imagine this - you are calling two OLAs to go from point A to point B. Suppose you get two cabs where one can is in good condition, but the other is in a not so good condition. Now, if the good condition cab covers the distance in 60 minutes while the not so good cab took 90 minutes, the travelers in the first cab will pay 60 INR as travel time charge, while the travelers in second cab would have sat extra 30 minutes in the traffic and have to pay 90 INR as travel charges - not because of their fault, but because the cab was not in proper condition, and took longer time to cover the distance.

1. I agree that this is absolutely not tolerable. When Ola/Uber/Anytaxi walla advertises its services and products, there is a certain guarantee they have to take and the condition of the taxicab is an important part of that.
Nonworking AC, noisy engine, worn out tyres, driver on phone while driving - all these are NOT ACCEPTABLE.


2. Are you sure that there is a significant correlation between condition of the car and the duration of the journey?

Originally Posted by AD007

I am based in Hyderabad and I have seen Ola and Uber surge the price to 2.5 to 3.5 time the normal amount especially during the office hours.
...
Also, why would the governments need to poke its nose if things were transparent?

Definitely people are being inconvenienced by the unfair tactics of these services and there is nothing wrong with the government taking action against these errant operators.

No one is forcing anyone at the gunpoint to use a surge priced cab.
People are claiming to get inconvenienced while CONVENIENTLY forgetting that there was a time before Olas and Ubers when people still used to travel in airconditioned cabs coming to your doorsteps.

Those are still available! Please resort to using them in case surge appears unfair.

Anyway and I have already spoken a lot about the typical human attitude here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/157947-indian-taxi-revolution-uber-ola-taxiforsure-meru-etc-37.html#post3967312
and
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ru-etc-38.html
And I know it will never improve
*sigh*

[Vitalstatistiks]

Originally Posted by chandrda

I think Uber and Ola are creating an atmosphere where Govt of Karnataka (GoK) is blamed and giving an impression that GoK is killing the Cab Aggregators business. I think this is completely wrong and false information being spread.

What is GoK Policy states -

1. Taxi taking license for City/Metered Cab have to give up State or National Permits

2. Strict background check of drivers and the same has to be submitted to RTO/Police. Its means drivers cannot pop in pop out of Uber/Ola on their wish

3. Detailed description of what kind of GPS/GPRS needs to be installed in the Cab, monitoring the same by a control room

4. Panic button which will not only alert the control room but also police

5. Maximum Rs. 19.50 per KM for AC and 14.50 for non AC.

6. Cab aggregators cannot exceed this ceiling, but can give what ever discount they want.

7. No surge pricing in peak hours and difficult situation (rains), it should not cross the price ceiling set

Not sure how these are inconvenient to the general public and how this will kill the business. If the GoK puts its foot down, the Cab aggregators will turn around and the business will be as usual.

Regards

Oh, allow me to react to some of the points there.

I will start from (2) and come back to (1), because (1) is the root of this evil.

On (2), who or what says the Uber/Ola are not happy to comply with this request.

Whatever this "strict background check" is, they are and should be happy to comply. Though we know what these strict background checks mean in India. Just fill up a form, self attest it, and submit it at a police station. @ police stations don't speak to each other, so no red flags will be raised. This is true for every taxi service in India, and Uber/Ola should not be expected to follow a higher threshold.

On (3), pray what are these GPS devices ? I have never seen one on Meru/MEga? What do they do? Though i have seen Uber/Ola using GPS devices to track the route, and email you the receipt with the full route. Meru/Mega don't do it.

On (4), panic button. Another random wishlist item from the government. Please keep it in checklist, and enforce it sometimes. I have never seen a Mega/Meru cab with a 'panic button'. I am sure it is there somewhere, but what is the point if I (the supposed beneficiary) don't know anything about it. And i happen to be more aware, educated one, right? Imagine. And also, who say Uber/Ola don't want to implement it.

On (5), read with (6), (7) and (1) is where the crux of the matter is. Others are just red herrings. Govt. wants to regulate, as is their want. There is absolutely nothing wrong in a private business charging whatever you can pay for it. But no, government wants to regulate. I am a lawyer, charging top dollar to my clients and they are happy to pay. But government will equate me with government counsel, and would want to regulate how much i charge MY Clients. How does not sound preposterous to you ?

Uber/Ola are not employers. This a very interesting case of jurisprudence developing right in front of our eyes. Please try to embrace the change, don't be dismissive and try to bucket new innovations with what you have been used to seeing.

I see much heartburn from surge pricing. That it wont harm them. Well as their own (admittedly non-transparent) formula, it helps them to direct more taxis to area generating more demand, while at the same time providing services only to those needy ones who are ready to pay the high fare. It ensures that you have a cab within 5 minutes no matter what the hour/location. You know what happens when there is no surge pricing? The cabs just go off the road ! There are no cabs, so we can stay happy with having bullied a company from removing surge pricing BUT YOU CANT FORCE THEM TO OPERATE. And who does that inconvenience eventually. You and me. think long and hard, please Sir, because this debate is the ground zero of capitalism v. socialism, adn we as a nation made our choice long back.

[AKTRACK]

I so hate the govt meddling into everything. Why do they have to poke their inefficient nose into everything. What is wrong in surge pricing. It is based on the simple laws of demand and supply. When the supply is constricted prices are bound to rise. That is true for every commodity/service. No one is being forced to pay. People always have alternatives. In fact during the surge pricing the traditional taxi and autos can share the additional load at lesser prices. That way they will regain some goodwill too. Why is govt so against competition. Govt could never have come up with the fast, transparent and efficient system like these companies have built. It pretty anarchic when the govt cannot do it and wont let othesr do it too.

We all know that govt is a puppet in the hands of these auto wallas and taxi unions. If govt could manage things so efficiently why have they not able to reduce fares, manage the finance mafia, reign in the rogue auto and taxi wallas, teach them manners.

For someone who wanted to be self employed, uber and ola had turned out to be great option. No boss, flexible working hours, transparent payment and most importantly a system of mutual feedback that brought out professionalism which was lacking.

[ajitkommini]

I wonder if there is some auto / taxiwalla union driven lobby behind this, indirectly putting pressure on the govt. to make their lives difficult. I fail to see how people prefer to take an unreliable, dangerous auto over paying a bit extra to travel in relative comfort and safety. If this is indeed the case, the business would not have even taken off.

[Rajeevraj]

We use Uber a lot in the family and I am not very fond of surge pricing. But from our experience even a surge of say 2x does not mean a significant extra over say taking an auto. Not to mention the other conveniences that comes with such a service.

Having said that, I don't have an issue with the Government trying to bring some regulation into the sector. Whether all the things mentioned is feasible and/or makes sense is debatable.

My issue is 'how much is too much'. Here we are talking about Uber and Ola. We have other cab services, we have autos, we have company cabs ferrying tens of thousands of employees (especially in Bangalore). Stuff like driver verification, SOS buttons, GPS tracking, permit stuff are all valid in some way or the other to all these.

Then the issue of demand based pricing. There are so many unregulated or poorly regulated industries here. Example, the over night bus services to 100's of destinations-The area they operate is very grey, there is no control over the pricing or services. Anyone who has tried to get a ticket on a long weekend will relate to this. Surge pricing at play here. We have the movie theater business. There are no controls over ticket prices (Here in Bangalore). So a superstar highly hyped film releases, ticket prices keep going up as long as the demand exists. Again surge pricing. Real Estate is another big industry where the regulations are poor. We have guidance values. Mostly just namesake.

Of course, these are just some examples, but the point is that every sector definitely can do with regulations and guidelines that can help protect the consumer. But the line where an attempt at regulation becomes an interference to running a business is a fine one.

[croupier]

Originally Posted by Bh.P

I think Ola/Uber pricing model is highly deceptive.

Not only do they charge for the distance, but also for the time. Come peak time, the time based component inherently introduces surge pricing due to the extra time that the travel takes, but they additionally include a surge pricing on both components again. Even when there is no surge pricing, the overall cost is almost 1.4 times the advertised cost of Rs. 6/10 per km.

And I find this surge pricing algorithm more opportunistic than based on load. NEver been able to understand this. I sometimes see 5 cabs in my vicinity, but there would be a 1.6x surge pricing. Surely if demand was high, there would not be 5 cabs available to me.

The same, when done by a auto rikshaw, we cry foul. So either government should control both, or let loose both the modes. Looks like they are opting for the former.

Hi BH.P,

My understanding of the algorithm is slightly different. The surge pricing kicks in when the no. of people trying to book a ride is more than the no. of available cabs by a certain factor. Surge pricing is only effective when you have at least one cab in the vicinity and there is more than one user trying to book it.

I personally believe it is an extremely smart way to maximize availability. What will definitely help matters though is if Ola and Uber can have their algorithm audited by 3rd party auditing(govt/pvt) firms so that their claims have more credibility.

[vivek.ks]

Ola and Uber pass 100% of surcharge collected to drivers. We in general feel company filling its wallets by charging more money. In actual surge is incentive for drivers to be in road for longer duration at odd hours.

Recently booked Uber at 11 PM, paid 1.2 surge and back home in comfort. Happy to pay surge, rather than messing up with Auto Wallahs

[CarJunki]

Both OLA and Uber have approached the transport department for registration as aggregators under the new regulations and submitted details of drivers as well as the vehicle attached to their network.

As they have decided to register, they will have to play by the rules set.

[avira_tk]

@ Asifgrkhan

I just finished reading a book by Socrates, basically that talks about how only extremes get attention , I suggest you do something similar, it might improve your comprehension. The government is planning to shut out surge pricing, which means instead of higher prices we will end up not having the taxi apps, hence my suggestion of taxing the surge component which is not paid directly to the drivers. All businesses are forced to price with the tax factored in, similarly no one will pay more than business class fares to get to the airport/home /office

I supported surge pricing, so the rest of your drivel I'll ignore in keeping with the decorum expected on this board . Tomorrow onwards you will be paying more at KFC (not me, I can't stand the place ), because farmers are dying /indebted and generally miserable. The tax won't raise the dead, pay the loans or do anything useful, it'll distort the labor market with the latest form of vote buying and make farming less remunerative so another extension of the tax is definitely on the cards.

[Mithrandir]

Originally Posted by abhishek46

The KA Govt rules have proposed a ceiling of Rs 19.50 for all radio taxis.
Taxi operators are free do whatever nonsense (like surge pricing, ride time etc) they can, but the rate cannot exceed Rs 19.50.

In my opinion, this is a good move. At least now there is an upper ceiling on the rate.

Is that Rs 19.5 per km? The 'minimum' fare in an auto rickshaw here in Udupi (coastal Karnataka) is Rs 25. That is, if you hire an auto and get down after moving say 50 yards you still have to pay Rs.25. A 2 km journey will cost you Rs 50. If it is a less populated area, then you may have to pay the auto driver some extra fare as the he will not get any passenger on his way back to his auto stand!. Where is the rule governing the auto fare?. Are we not part of the same state? If govt. wants to control the big business why cant it control the auto drivers? Scared of their unions?

[Samurai]

Let me just quote what I wrote about Uber in 2014, because nothing really has changed.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Here is the crux of the matter. Indian government is always lagging decades behind when it comes to creating laws to match the changing business environment. Whenever a new tech-enabled business model enters the country, the prevailing statuary & regulatory environment rarely addresses the new business model. So the new business has to put a square peg into a round hole and somehow get by until the situation gets pretty bad, like this case.
.
.
.
The cab booking app is the latest business model to fall prey to this age old problem. The booking apps (not just Uber) are breaking laws because the prevailing laws are based on older business/technology. If laws are not changed to suit new business/technology models, the new business models can't take root India.

If the existing laws are obsolete, create new ones. Don't force old laws on new business concepts.

[SoumenD]

Last year august I had to take an OLA 'mini' for airport early morning. The bill was a shocker(not just for me but for the driver as well).



First, there was zero wait time as I was waiting at pickup point. Second, how can 6:00AM be peak hour(Charged 2X)? And it took us barely an hour to reach airport for obvious reasons. . As I was travelling out of country and was caught up this slipped my mind & didn't take this up with OLA.

My question is, is this surge pricing justified? And can I take this up with OLA now?

P.S : Any other taxi service(including other instances of OLA) I have used till date(till Jan,2016), Max I have paid is 1500 INR. This includes peak hour/off-peak hour/late nights.

[binand]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

Second, how can 6:00AM be peak hour(Charged 2X)?

Surge price does not relate to "peak hours". The existence of surge price only indicates that there are more people looking for rides than there are cabs on the road (within the constraints of the provider's model). So even if you are the only person looking for a ride, if there are no cabs available surge price will kick in until at least one driver finds it lucrative enough to forgo their rest and take you to your destination.

At 6 AM, I expect the number of cabbies is very low (many would have logged off after night shift and not enough would have logged on for day shift) whereas the number of people looking for rides would be high (people taking morning commuter flights/trains, work commute etc.).

[chandrda]

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistiks

Oh, allow me to react to some of the points there.

I will start from (2) and come back to (1), because (1) is the root of this evil.

On (2), who or what says the Uber/Ola are not happy to comply with this request.

Whatever this "strict background check" is, they are and should be happy to comply. Though we know what these strict background checks mean in India. Just fill up a form, self attest it, and submit it at a police station. @ police stations don't speak to each other, so no red flags will be raised. This is true for every taxi service in India, and Uber/Ola should not be expected to follow a higher threshold.

On (3), pray what are these GPS devices ? I have never seen one on Meru/MEga? What do they do? Though i have seen Uber/Ola using GPS devices to track the route, and email you the receipt with the full route. Meru/Mega don't do it.

On (4), panic button. Another random wishlist item from the government. Please keep it in checklist, and enforce it sometimes. I have never seen a Mega/Meru cab with a 'panic button'. I am sure it is there somewhere, but what is the point if I (the supposed beneficiary) don't know anything about it. And i happen to be more aware, educated one, right? Imagine. And also, who say Uber/Ola don't want to implement it.

Thanks for your Reaction Sir. Now let me react to your reaction -

In your reaction, I still don't see any explanation as to how these will cause inconvenience to the public in general. All I can read is how these new policy will not be implemented effectively by the Cab Aggregator, RTO and Police collectively. Are we saying that since these will not be implemented effectively there should not be any policy at all ?

I am not sure if you are fully update of the Policy/Situation - This is a new policy being implemented/Proposed by the GoK and its called Karnataka On-Demand Transportation Technology Aggregator Rules, 2016. Its a new policy being implemented which means that even Meru/Mega have to follow in future and implement. Explanation that Meru/Mega currently doesn't have these only show loop sided blames games based argument. Now where in my explanation did I mention that Uber/Ola doesn't want to implement either GPS/Panic Button?

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistiks

On (5), read with (6), (7) and (1) is where the crux of the matter is. Others are just red herrings. Govt. wants to regulate, as is their want. There is absolutely nothing wrong in a private business charging whatever you can pay for it. But no, government wants to regulate. I am a lawyer, charging top dollar to my clients and they are happy to pay. But government will equate me with government counsel, and would want to regulate how much i charge MY Clients. How does not sound preposterous to you ?

What the above says is that if I am not ready or cannot afford to pay premium rate which is over and above the fixed/regulated price, then I don't have the right to Uber/Ola cab. Only those who can afford should opt for Uber/Ola and rest of the public should look the other way in this exploitation. In this case, we should also privatize other essential services like electricity/water and allow the operator to charge premium in Summer. If you can't afford it then you spend the summer with out electricity/water.

Coming to Lawyers - A person can be a LLB, CS and CA, but why is it that the he is allowed to practice any one and not all there. Is it all three trying to protect their turf. In this case whats wrong with have different license for City, State and National. FYI - Bar Council of India has been vehemently opposing Foreign Lawyers and Firms from practicing in India, isn't this denying better service, innovation and competition.

There was a very interesting case going on in the High Court of Karnataka. Some car enthusiasts filed a case saying they should not be forced to pay the LTA in Karnataka which is substantially higher that what they have already paid in their respective state for Non KA registered cars. By your argument, if the general public in Karnataka are ready and can afford to pay the higher LTA, then rest of India should also pay the same if they have to drive their car in Karnataka. I don't want to pass a judgement here, but its food for thought in this situation.

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistiks

Uber/Ola are not employers. This a very interesting case of jurisprudence developing right in front of our eyes. Please try to embrace the change, don't be dismissive and try to bucket new innovations with what you have been used to seeing.

Agreed, that this is very interesting case of jurisprudence developing, but what bothers me here is that that the one proposing the concept of law or Law behind the law (practice by uber/Ola) and the Jurist are the same person, in this case Uber/Ola. Uber/Ola cannot or should not propose what they think is right concept of law and also be the jurist who pass the law saying it's principle of law are right and correct

Again statements saying we are not receptive to innovation is steering away from the crux of the problem which is license and surge pricing. Now where did it mention that GoK is asking Ola/Uber to abandon technology or innovation.

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistiks

I see much heartburn from surge pricing. That it wont harm them. Well as their own (admittedly non-transparent) formula, it helps them to direct more taxis to area generating more demand, while at the same time providing services only to those needy ones who are ready to pay the high fare. It ensures that you have a cab within 5 minutes no matter what the hour/location. You know what happens when there is no surge pricing? The cabs just go off the road ! There are no cabs, so we can stay happy with having bullied a company from removing surge pricing BUT YOU CANT FORCE THEM TO OPERATE. And who does that inconvenience eventually. You and me. think long and hard, please Sir, because this debate is the ground zero of capitalism v. socialism, adn we as a nation made our choice long back.

Sir, I have been using Uber/Ola extensively from last 5 months and let me assure you that not in all the situation there is surge in demand. Even I am as ignorant as you are on the methods of surge pricing. But what I have experienced is that its not fair and legal always.

Example 1 - I can see some 30 cabs in the vicinity close to my house, but the app shows surge pricing. May be they have been pre-booked or may not be

Example 2 - When were there is a surge pricing, I walk around 1 KM from that area and try booking the cab. Majority of the time I get cab for normal price.

Example 3 - There is a driver nexus who operate from particular areas and try to create demand by switch off/not accepting ride. This allows them to artificial create surge pricing. Note this was told to me by a well informed driver and I am not speculating

Without listing/explaining how these policy will cause inconvenience to the public, I think this debate will not end

Regards

[deehunk]

Originally Posted by chandrda

Sir, I have been using Uber/Ola extensively from last 5 months and let me assure you that not in all the situation there is surge in demand. Even I am as ignorant as you are on the methods of surge pricing. But what I have experienced is that its not fair and legal always.

Example 2 - When were there is a surge pricing, I walk around 1 KM from that area and try booking the cab. Majority of the time I get cab for normal price.

Example 3 - There is a driver nexus who operate from particular areas and try to create demand by switch off/not accepting ride. This allows them to artificial create surge pricing. Note this was told to me by a well informed driver and I am not speculating

Without listing/explaining how these policy will cause inconvenience to the public, I think this debate will not end

Since Ola and Uber are like real estate boom, everyone want to take their share of bite. Ola alone is in need of 80,000 drivers in Bangalore to meet the demand, but there is scarcity of 30,000 drivers. The existing drivers work for both Ola and Uber, this protects them from lay-off (temporary bans). People who had excess money cashed on this short supply. These people are not any business icons but our own IT professionals, they started bringing drivers from their native place with a promised minimum income (say 20% of daily earnings or a fixed salary per month)
This is what I explained in one of my posts yesterday, the profitable area for drivers is around Marathalli and ITPL, and they get lot of share bookings and all short trips. It is easy for them to make 18 trips in a day, this gets them an incentive of INR 7K plus. But drivers who operate inside the city have to go on long trips, so they end up wasting time inside city traffic. Even by stretching up to 10.30 pm, they manage 11-14 trips. so they turn off 'micro' category in peak hours, customers travelling long distance will still look for 'micro' which creates a demand and you see surcharge response from Ola similar to turbo kick ins. This is the reason that you see lot of cabs in the evening but there is a surcharge applicable. Surcharge is profitable for both driver and Ola/Uber, as they share the profit.