[neil.jericho]

From a reliable birdie

1. Honda is preparing a new motorcycle in the 350 cc segment that will compete with the offerings from Royal Enfield. It is a new product being designed and developed primarily for the Indian market but will be sold elsewhere as well. This will bring in volumes for Honda's big push in the big bike dealership space.

2. Honda will have two different types of Big Wing dealerships,
- one is going to be a Big Wing dealership which will have the 300 to 500 cc bikes only.
- the second is going to be a Big Wing Top Line dealership which will have the full line up of 300 to 1800 cc bikes.

In essence the Top Line dealerships will be anchor stores and there will be one of them in a state but there can be one or more Big Wing dealerships in the same state. So Mumbai would have one Top Line dealership and Pune could get a regular Big Wing dealership, if I understood Honda's model correctly. Similarly Madras would likely get the Top Line dealership while Coimbatore could get a regular Big Wing dealership.

Work on expanding the different dealerships has understandably been hampered by the current Covid pandemic.

If I gauge the product mix, Honda seems to have the following in line for the market
- Big Wing dealership

• Honda CB300R
• New 350 cc bike
• CB500X
• CBR500R
• CB500X
• Rebel 500

- Big Wing Top Line dealership

• All the above
• Honda CBR650R
• CB1000R
• Africa Twin (manual and DCT)
• CBR1000RR-R and SP
• Goldwing

I know that not everyone here has been a fan of Honda's approach to the big bike market in our country but Ive said it before and Im saying it again. Honda is playing the long game in the market, they are slow and steady but they are also laying the foundation for a long term success strategy.

[nitinkbhaskar]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

From a reliable birdie

Honda is preparing a new motorcycle in the 350 cc segment that will compete with the offerings from Royal Enfield.

Thanks for this info.
However, I really fail to understand why they chose to skip CBR 300 for Indian market. Does it really make sense in building something new from scratch in 350 CC market when they already have a potent 300 overseas ?

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by nitinkbhaskar

Thanks for this info.
However, I really fail to understand why they chose to skip CBR 300 for Indian market. Does it really make sense in building something new from scratch in 350 CC market when they already have a potent 300 overseas ?

Exactly. Indians loves faired bikes and the Honda 250r did decent numbers even when it was outdated. A reliable 300cc faired bike should sell much more than the cb300 which looked too small to justify it's pricing.

[Added_flavor]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

From a reliable birdie

1. Honda is preparing a new motorcycle in the 350 cc segment that will compete with the offerings from Royal Enfield. It is a new product being designed and developed primarily for the Indian market but will be sold elsewhere as well. This will bring in volumes for Honda's big push in the big bike dealership space.

Interesting if this turns out true! Also makes me wonder why would they? Unless they plan to build a long-stroke thumper similar to the RE, the Rebel 300 is just there. They can just localize it instead of reinventing the wheel, no?

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

2. Honda will have two different types of Big Wing dealerships,
- one is going to be a Big Wing dealership which will have the 300 to 500 cc bikes only.
- the second is going to be a Big Wing Top Line dealership which will have the full line up of 300 to 1800 cc bikes.

Woah, I wonder if the current dealers will be willing to make such investments for two separate dealerships in addition to the regular ones. The ground reality is that the portfolio isn't big enough at least currently, to justify investments on two dealerships for mid-segment and bigger bikes. Also, for the customer, it'll be confusing which showroom to go to get a test ride of the bikes he wants! Especially if you're cross-shopping between (say) a CBR 500 and a CBR 650!

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by nitinkbhaskar

Thanks for this info.
However, I really fail to understand why they chose to skip CBR 300 for Indian market. Does it really make sense in building something new from scratch in 350 CC market when they already have a potent 300 overseas ?

Originally Posted by bf1983

Exactly. Indians loves faired bikes and the Honda 250r did decent numbers even when it was outdated. A reliable 300cc faired bike should sell much more than the cb300 which looked too small to justify it's pricing.

If I had to guess, maybe Honda is holding off on the CBR300R until the launch of the new showrooms? Also pricing would be a factor, it would have been very tough to match the VFM quotient of the competition and Honda just may not have seen enough volumes in it to make the investment work till now.

One thing in advantage of the Honda CBR250R was that the competition in the segment was hardly anything when it was launched and Honda India had a very good and profitable run, making every rupee out of it. With the 300, the market dynamics and market maturity levels are quite different.

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

Interesting if this turns out true! Also makes me wonder why would they? Unless they plan to build a long-stroke thumper similar to the RE, the Rebel 300 is just there. They can just localize it instead of reinventing the wheel, no?

Maybe the 50cc gap would result in perception swinging against the Rebel 300? I hear the new Honda 350 bike might be positioned with some adventure credentials, lets wait and see. But it does sound exciting, Honda going after the big dog is a massive decision in itself.

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

Woah, I wonder if the current dealers will be willing to make such investments for two separate dealerships in addition to the regular ones. The ground reality is that the portfolio isn't big enough at least currently, to justify investments on two dealerships for mid-segment and bigger bikes. Also, for the customer, it'll be confusing which showroom to go to get a test ride of the bikes he wants! Especially if you're cross-shopping between (say) a CBR 500 and a CBR 650!

Honda wants the Big Wing and Big Wing Top Line dealerships to have dedicated space for sure, which means no more shared space with Activas and Dios. The per hour service rates that are going to be charged will be in line with the market but slightly lower than the others, so there will be a return in investment from the service side for sure. Parts are expected to be as inexpensive as ever. The financial success of the twin dealership approach will depend on how well the market accepts the new 350 and the long awaited 500s.

So I am guessing Silicon Honda will take up the Top Line dealership in Bangalore. The lower rung Big Wing dealerships will likely come up once the product portfolio is complete and unveiled. I dont foresee both the Top Line and Big Wing dealerships to coexist in the same city for at least the next 2 to 3 years, once the volumes start stabilizing and the market shifts towards the middleweight segment.

All in all, I really do like the twin pronged strategy a lot.

Meanwhile, a Honda owner tells me that the EVM group which has a lot of big bike dealerships (and car dealerships for that matter) in Cochin, is emptying out the now bereft of BS6 models to sell Ducati showroom and that space is in the process of getting converted into the Big Wing Top Line dealership here! The Ducati sales and service will be moved to the Polaris and / or Indian showroom, I forget which one.

[Xaos636]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

If I had to guess, maybe Honda is holding off on the CBR300R until the launch of the new showrooms?

So I am guessing Silicon Honda will take up the Top Line dealership in Bangalore. The lower rung Big Wing dealerships will likely come up once the product portfolio is complete and unveiled.

On the CBR300R, the bike is already old now even in the markets it exists and Honda if at all brings it, would be the next generation CBR300R, if at all one comes out. The current gen CBR300R came out in 2013 at the Milan motorcycle show and has till date has received only new colors and nothing else. Strong rumors around the CBR300R forums suggest that they will either get the CBR300RR based on the Indonesian spec twin cylinder CBR250RR or they wont get any update for 300R and would have to do with either the 400R or the 500R. Kawasaki taking things up with the Ninja 400 for US and EU markets(after killing the Ninja 300) could mean Honda wouldn't update the CBR300R too because the current 300USD difference between CBR300R and Ninja 400 inst helping its case. So since we are speaking about a global model, it looks likely that CBR300R is going to be dead as soon as Euro 5 emission norms kick in.

On the Silicon Honda Bangalore showroom, yes the transition has already started and that should be the first Big Wing down south. They have already changed the Facebook and Instagram handles to Big Wing Bengaluru some time back.

[samyD]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

I dont foresee both the Top Line and Big Wing dealerships to coexist in the same city for at least the next 2 to 3 years, once the volumes start stabilizing and the market shifts towards the middleweight segment.

Well, the market shift will only happen when there are products available in a segment. And Honda understands it better than us for sure. But the way they've been procrastinating the launch of 500cc bikes is making it harder for me to believe their 'long term game' planning. I've seen that term attached to Honda's big bike business so many times that I now wonder if its a PR jargon.

Honda has the might to launch products and then build an infrastructure around it. (launch 500cc bikes with current setup and then react to the sales volume for expanding)

I'm afraid the 'gap' in 300-500cc market will not be there by the time Honda's 'long term game' planning comes to fruition.

[Red Liner]

It Will be interesting to see what current and future bikes the 500s from Honda will compete against in India, if at all they launch.

Rebel 500: RE interceptor
CB 500x: KTM 490 Adventure

The RE is already here and is a phenomenal success worldwide even in markets where the rebel already sells. Maybe it will sell here to true blue Honda fan boys for a while until the initial hoopla lasts. Can they compete with the RE pricing? I doubt it.

The CB500X largely competes with the 390 adventure, and in countries where both bikes are sold, the 390 adventure continues to be a clear favourite. 195kg wet doesn’t get you many friends. In terms of class, the 500x doesn’t seem to be picked up by mags to compare the 390 adventure against even though their hp numbers are fairly close. But if we take the 490 adventure which is what everyone in India will compare it against, the Honda Will be blown out of the water in every category barring reliability, which is a given since its a Honda and that engine has been around for close to a decade.

I think the 500s will be a niche market much like the 300. And Honda has absolutely missed the train, bus, and the flight to make a serious power play in the premium 300-500cc class in India. This is where the margins are good and the volumes can actually be great (look at ktm).

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by Xaos636

On the CBR300R, the bike is already old now even in the markets it exists and Honda if at all brings it, would be the next generation CBR300R, if at all one comes out. The current gen CBR300R came out in 2013 at the Milan motorcycle show and has till date has received only new colors and nothing else. Strong rumors around the CBR300R forums suggest that they will either get the CBR300RR based on the Indonesian spec twin cylinder CBR250RR or they wont get any update for 300R and would have to do with either the 400R or the 500R. Kawasaki taking things up with the Ninja 400 for US and EU markets(after killing the Ninja 300) could mean Honda wouldn't update the CBR300R too because the current 300USD difference between CBR300R and Ninja 400 inst helping its case. So since we are speaking about a global model, it looks likely that CBR300R is going to be dead as soon as Euro 5 emission norms kick in.

I had forgotten how old the CBR300R really is! I always believed that Honda will go down the CBR300RR route to spruce things up and would not really go down the 400cc path. At least in the US, Honda has been content in playing the lowest price card for the last several years while offering a much lower power output in a very user friendly package. All said, with the 250 earlier and the 300 now, their offerings fit that first bike for a new rider on a tight budget mold in the US very well.

However, if Kawasaki's far superior Ninja 400 is only a few hundred dollars away (going by MSRP and not OTD pricing) and it offers 50% more power and a bigger bike feel, the days of the 300 are definitely numbered and Honda will have to go up in displacement. I wasnt aware that they were so closely matched in price till I saw you post and looked it up.

Maybe this could be the real impetus for a new 350 platform that is being developed for India but will be sold elsewhere?

Originally Posted by samyD

Well, the market shift will only happen when there are products available in a segment. And Honda understands it better than us for sure. But the way they've been procrastinating the launch of 500cc bikes is making it harder for me to believe their 'long term game' planning. I've seen that term attached to Honda's big bike business so many times that I now wonder if its a PR jargon.

Honda has the might to launch products and then build an infrastructure around it. (launch 500cc bikes with current setup and then react to the sales volume for expanding)

I'm afraid the 'gap' in 300-500cc market will not be there by the time Honda's 'long term game' planning comes to fruition.

This is like the chicken and egg conundrum.

Do you sell the 500cc bikes through the existing infrastructure, hope that you dont sell too many in the first wave and overwhelm your service system, and then deal with the consequences?

Or do you build your infrastructure, accept that you might lose some sales due to the deliberate and methodical pace at which you are moving, but you give customers an end to end great experience once things are eventually in place?

Having worked in sales for so many years, I would always choose the latter. I used to hate selling when I knew there would be roadblocks to customer satisfaction that havent been addressed before hand.

[akshayhonda]

Thanks for the news Neil.

Its been a couple of months I sold my 2014 Duke 390 and since them I have been thinking badly about the CBR 500R and the X as a replacement. Going by the pricing speculations of it being around 5L OTR Im also contemplating about getting a used CBR 650 or a CB 1000 and fulfill my inline4 big bike dreams.

The pricing as per me will be the factor.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by akshayhonda

Thanks for the news Neil.

Its been a couple of months I sold my 2014 Duke 390 and since them I have been thinking badly about the CBR 500R and the X as a replacement. Going by the pricing speculations of it being around 5L OTR Im also contemplating about getting a used CBR 650 or a CB 1000 and fulfill my inline4 big bike dreams.

The pricing as per me will be the factor.

If the CBR500R ends up close to Rs 5L on road, you are definitely better off going for a used CBR650 or a CB1000. Pre Covid, the prices of the 650 were between Rs 5 - 5.5L down south, now I suspect it will be a bit lower. I would suggest the CBR650 over the CB1000 only because you are likely to get a very well maintained, even if 15 to 20K kms run bike with all accessories installed, that would have likely done mostly touring. With the CB1000, you are likely to come across a different type of owner, who may not have pampered the bike as much.

[shaikhmimran]

I have two and a half points to say :
1. A new 350 cc motorcycle seems to be unrealistic proposition considering the Rebel 300 & CB300 is already there in Honda line-up. One possibility is that HMSI's market study tells them that a 300cc retro/classic bike however good will not sell as the RE's have a 350cc engine and in India displacement numbers matters to buyers. And then even if they decide to get a 350cc, it may be most likely a overbored version of the rebel 300 cc engine.
2. I didn't see big scooters in their plan for Bigwing.Is there a market for bigger scooters in India ?
2.5. Punekars will take offence @Neil for giving us only a a Bigwing & not the Top line as Pune is equal to Mumbai and Bangalore in our minds.

[shan_ned]

Originally Posted by shaikhmimran

I have two and a half points to say :
1. A new 350 cc motorcycle seems to be unrealistic proposition considering the Rebel 300 & CB300 is already there in Honda line-up. One possibility is that HMSI's market study tells them that a 300cc retro/classic bike however good will not sell as the RE's have a 350cc engine and in India displacement numbers matters to buyers. And then even if they decide to get a 350cc, it may be most likely a overbored version of the rebel 300 cc engine.

Do I sense some nervosness among RE fan boys ?


I have a different thought here. I feel it makes more sense for HMSI to come out with a 350-400cc based retro/classic styled motorcycle. HMSI had one big advantage over other big motorcycle brands. They never had any pressure for selling big motorcycles as they have a huge market share in the commuter vehicles segment. For this same reason, Triumph also wants to enter the mass market segment (RE segment) to keep up their revenue for running the show. How far it is going to succeed is a different question. Now HMSI has setup a separate channel for selling bigger mototcycles, they may like to have some cushion by selling the 350cc (longer stroke engine) category motorcycles (or a cruiser type). Certainly Honda, with its brand value, can compete with RE if they can show some differential value add over the RE 350 motorcycles. Bajaj had the opportunity to take on the RE, but failed miserably due to its incorrect marketing strategy. Honda may play a better game. Again, this is just a speculation from my side.

[akshayhonda]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

If the CBR500R ends up close to Rs 5L on road, you are definitely better off going for a used CBR650 or a CB1000. Pre Covid, the prices of the 650 were between Rs 5 - 5.5L down south, now I suspect it will be a bit lower. I would suggest the CBR650 over the CB1000 only because you are likely to get a very well maintained, even if 15 to 20K kms run bike with all accessories installed, that would have likely done mostly touring. With the CB1000, you are likely to come across a different type of owner, who may not have pampered the bike as much.

Have managed to find some really well kept CB's in MH that have done like 15K with accessories on. And some good 650s. Not jumping into getting one this year. Dont want the 2020 curse my big bike ownership dreams

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

It Will be interesting to see what current and future bikes the 500s from Honda will compete against in India, if at all they launch.

CB 500x: KTM 490/390 Adventure

Here is one already:

Hello 390 Adv 'ers. I have joined the fray of ownership with this bike. Bike is brilliant so far. I will compare it to a CB500X I owned a while back.
This bike feels lighter, more flickable, and more taught in the suspension than the CBX. I had the Rally Raid kit on my CB, which just slowed down the liveliness of it.
I am not going to do much to this bike as I like it as is. The windscreen gives smooth quiet air. The seat is quite firm & the suspension is taught. TKC 70's are good tires. Bars are kinda low.
Gotta break it in! No freeway or straight roads if I can help it. It carves pavement super well. I will be moderate on two track stuff, but we have some routes in mind. And I travel light - perfect for this bike.
I am thinking to bump up 1 on the c/s for less rpm's if it will pull it. Obviously I am just learning this bike, but it is very slick, India mfg aside. Hope to learn some in here. :thumb
Cheers y'all.