[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by shankarbn

It's a dead battery. There may be other issues but it is a dead battery nonetheless. When you replace the battery, pay close attention to the CCA rating on the battery and what your bike needs - IME Varta batteries are very low compared to Yuasa in the same segment.

Well, Not sure you read the post in its entirety. The replacement battery I bought from BS has a higher CCA than the Varta battery the bike currently has.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

You do not *need* a lithium ion or lipo battery. Just get a good battery.

The bike ran on a Li battery for 8 years without giving a single issue. The CCA on the Li battery was 270 amps as compared to the 180 in the BS. The generation of cross-plane R1 from 09-14 is notorious for drawing a high load on startup thanks to the headlights and the heavy crank which takes a lot of effort to crank up, Li batteries are known to manage load much better with a huge negative being it's not so great in super cold temperature which is something I don't need to worry about. Not to mention the huge positive of how the battery discharge rate is almost non-existent compared to that of a conventional battery. So yeah I beg to differ about the part that I don't need a Li battery.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

If the bike does not start with a new battery, that's when you start checking the rest of the electrical bits and bobs.

Again, precisely what I posted in the post before.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

When you do check the starter and RR unit, please do yourself a favour - replace cables and check for corrosion in connection points before you throw away money on brand new parts you may not need.

That is a good point, which will be done nonetheless. When you get into preventative maintenance, you tend to keep yourself on your toes concerning components that are known to wear relatively quicker in certain vehicles. Also considering mine being a 11 year old bike and has considerable mileage under its belt nothing wrong with having parts ready(not specifically RR or Stator, I'm talking in a more general sense) when you need them rather than running pillar to post for a bike that has little to no manufacturer support for spare parts. You'd understand why I say this based on my experience so far that's been laid out in this thread.

Cheer
Krishna

[Rachit.K.Dogra]

Originally Posted by krishnaprasadgg

All is not well with the R1.

This started to give me signs that probably the battery is not able to handle load but it is still retaining charge.
Cheers
Krishna

Oh Boy!!
I have had this issue with my R1 intermittently ever since I got it. The R1 is just very hard on batteries especially in winters. Winters in north can get very cold and the last 2 winters have been a bit of an exercise on some occasions with my R1.

I might have something exciting to share on the battery front. Will wait for all the tests to come out to share with you. Will send you a DM.

CHEERS!!
Rachit

[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by Rachit.K.Dogra

Oh Boy!!
I have had this issue with my R1 intermittently ever since I got it. The R1 is just very hard on batteries especially in winters. Winters in north can get very cold and the last 2 winters have been a bit of an exercise on some occasions with my R1.

I might have something exciting to share on the battery front. Will wait for all the tests to come out to share with you. Will send you a DM.

CHEERS!!
Rachit

Ah yes Rachit, I remember we had discussed this at length sometime back. But unfortunately, mine is not a temp issue. The temperature at Palakkad here is hitting 39 degrees already and it's not even Summers officially.

But yeah. Let's talk about the battery front outside the thread.

Cheers
Krishna

[SnS_12]

Mr. Blue and Red R1 please discuss your findings on this thread itself so the future prospective buyers can learn a thing or two as well

[shankarbn]

Originally Posted by krishnaprasadgg

Well, Not sure you read the post in its entirety. The replacement battery I bought from BS has a higher CCA than the Varta battery the bike currently has.

Oh yeah I hear you. What I meant is to check whether some of that 190A would be stolen by corrosion or bad cables or something else along the way - suggesting a much higher CCA battery based on others' experiences with similar age R1 based on bike specific degradation.

On my tiger 1050, the starter to battery and earth cables are too flimsy from factory. Doesn't affect anything until after 5-10 years when there's a tiny bit of corrosion or age that ensures battery amps aren't carried all the way through - results of course are predictable : dead battery first, starter carbon next and starter gears after. All easily preventable by swapping uprated cables. You'd never know this if all you keep doing is swapping a new battery every 2-3 years when it dies after checking voltage. As a general rule in my experience a good battery in a bike that runs regularly (2-3 rides a month is regular enough) should ideally last 4 years minimum. Funnily, the first symptom we notice on Triumph tiger bikes is a "no start while hot" issue. The usual culprit ends up being a starter motor which as you know is unnecessarily expensive especially since it doesn't get rid of the root cause being crappy(cheap) cables.

[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Mr. Blue and Red R1 please discuss your findings on this thread itself so the future prospective buyers can learn a thing or two as well

Let's wait for him to finish his tests.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

Oh yeah I hear you. What I meant is to check whether some of that 190A would be stolen by corrosion or bad cables or something else along the way - suggesting a much higher CCA battery based on others' experiences with similar age R1 based on bike specific degradation.

The cables are in good shape. No corrosion on the end plates or the cable as such.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

On my tiger 1050, the starter to battery and earth cables are too flimsy from factory. Doesn't affect anything until after 5-10 years when there's a tiny bit of corrosion or age that ensures battery amps aren't carried all the way through - results of course are predictable : dead battery first, starter carbon next and starter gears after. All easily preventable by swapping uprated cables. You'd never know this if all you keep doing is swapping a new battery every 2-3 years when it dies after checking voltage. As a general rule in my experience a good battery in a bike that runs regularly (2-3 rides a month is regular enough) should ideally last 4 years minimum.

I do get what you are saying and I am doing the same as I mentioned in the first post about this. Voltmeter readouts are the first step to simply assess the health of the battery and to see what is happening when load is applied to it. Rest assured I am not simply replacing batteries calling it a day, the hunt for the root cause is still ongoing. I'll be posting about it once I have the full picture.

Originally Posted by shankarbn

Funnily, the first symptom we notice on Triumph tiger bikes is a "no start while hot" issue. The usual culprit ends up being a starter motor which as you know is unnecessarily expensive especially since it doesn't get rid of the root cause being crappy(cheap) cables.

And about the "no start while hot" issue on triumphs, I have heard the same from quite a few triumph owners, luckily hadn't faced it when I had the Tiger 800.


Cheers
Krishna

[krishnaprasadgg]

A few updates.

So let me pick up from where I left off. The new battery arrives. And I get to fixing it up and post-fitting I try to do a startup and much to my dismay the bike more or less behaved the same.

Yup, so it was not just the battery after all. I say not "just" the battery because now the battery can take the load much better and the meter console is not switching off on load. Anyways. Took a few videos replicating the tests that were done before with the old battery as well. And the results were different for sure but the root cause remained the same.

Voltage shown with the BS battery before start-up


Here is the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFEiLVwAXkc

The bike refuses to start, but the bike does crank without much load issues, it is only after a couple of attempts the starter seems to be having an issue of not getting enough juice.

Once I do get the bike to start the charging volts all seem to be satisfactory and no issues at all in that.

Volts while checking for the charging volts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FrepC6DWE

Then on the advice of Karthick, I take the bike out for a short 14-20 km ride and check the voltages again. The voltages seem to be just fine on idle it has 12.6 v

Here is a video of how the root problem still remains with the new battery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLqgFYopuO8

P.S Don't mind the video orientation going upside down mid-way.

But during all this I notice something. Once I get the bike going from a cold start then all subsequent starts happen easily without any issues at almost half crank itself. But I wasn't sure if this was a fluke or if it is repeating like this. So I decided to do a series of tests again.

So I repeat the test for a short ride and it behaves the same. On the first cold start of the bike, it takes multiple attempts before the bike finally cranks up, on average 3-4 attempts, and once the bike gets going and is ridden for some km, I can safely switch off the bike and switch it on again and it starts in half a crank no problems whatsoever.

By this time I had also a Bangalore ride coming up and I was debating whether to ride the bike to Bangalore in this condition or not. Considering there is a possibility of me getting stuck with the bike not being able to crank at all. So on the council of a few experts, I decided to make the ride to Bangalore anyway, I kept my jump pack with me as insurance just in case I was not able to get the bike started or by jump-starting the bike in gear this could save me. But I decided I won't be testing my luck too much and for the entire 500kms journey, I'll only stop twice for fueling once at Coimbatore and once at Salem, so that the stop will be only in proper fuel bunks where in case I do get stuck help will be easier to find. And I can work on the bike in a safer environment too, as opposed to somewhere in the side of the road along the highway which could prove dangerous.

So I plan on starting my ride early in the morning and yes, you guessed it, the bike doesn't want to start, but as expected by around the 3rd or 4th attempt I get the bike to start. And I set on with my trip, I stopped for fuel at Coimbatore, and post fueling I toggle the key and press the starter button with my fingers crossed and the bike starts up with just half a crank itself. I proceed to gear up and continue my ride, the ride is going absolutely fine and I stop at Salem again to refuel(This is just a precautionary fuel up because finding an XP95 bunk post Krishnagiri till Hosur or Bangalore is a bit of a pain without having to navigate those long blocked off service road situation) and the bike behaves the same at Salem too. Starts up back at half a crank.

Finally, I reach my flat without any drama and I park the bike in my parking. initially, the plan was to take the bike to Highlander once I was a bit rested but later on, after talking to another friend who suggested checking if it's a fuel pressure issue the first startup isn't happening without a struggle. So I thought I'd do one more test and I toggle the fuel pump on a few times before attempting a crank just to test this theory. So I leave the bike in my parking till around 9 pm, that's about 12 hours of cool time so the engine is dead cold. And the same behavior, the bike cranks but can't get the bike to start.

Not having enough I try to test this theory once more but this time by riding around in Bangalore city for a change with a bit more testing. So the next day early morning I went to start and the bike didn't start, Finally got the bike to start on 4th attempt or so and it finally started, and I rode around a bit with @Xaos636 and putter around, and stopped for a cup of coffee within the city and give the bike about 30 minutes break and tried starting it up again and as expected the bike starts up in half a crank, then we repeat the test again but this time leave the bike off for 4 hours or so and tried again and yet again the bike starts up with half a crank.

Puttering around Bangalore with Xaos636 for some city testing

So finally I think now one pattern is clear, it's not just the battery, because between the old Varta (with a bulge on the battery case) and the brand new BS battery, the bike is getting more steady juice and we have ruled out the battery charging system because the bike ran approx 550 km and the volt on a cold battery is still 12.6 and has plenty of charge left. So that's also cleared up, so no need to change the RR or Stator coil just yet. But yeah the pattern has finally emerged, that is, cold start is an issue, takes about 3-4 attempts to get it going and once the bike is properly running temps the bike has no problem starting up till the engine is dead cold again which takes a good 7-8 hours(at the minimum) or so after being parked up.

So finally with all this clear info at hand, I rode the bike to Highlander.

Briefed Karthick on all the points and he also seemed to agree, that the starter motor is the first place to check, and possibly the one-way clutch too, since it is also very much part of the starting system of the bike. So I already had the rebuild kit for the starter motor with me which I gave him and I also had the clutch side case gasket which will need to be replaced in case he wanted to check the health of the one-way clutch.

Carbon brush kit (Part no: 4C8-81801-01-00)


Clutch side gasket (Part no: 14B-15461-00-00)

So I gave Karthick both these parts and I returned to Kerala. Oh btw, All this is from last week.

So finally yesterday night I got a set of photos from Karthick, and the problem is pretty much clear, the start motor armature is pretty burnt up and the carbon brush is partially stuck in place.

I'll try and take some better-quality pics once I have the old starter with me in person. These photos very just sent to me for situation update purposes.

This puts me in a tricky situation the starter right now is not refurbishable in this state since the armature is pretty burnt up so the rebuild kit I have in hand right now is of no use currently. Now I have to go and try to find a brand new Starter motor assembly for the bike. Hopefully, I'll be able to get one soon because until then the bike is very much out of commission. That's the latest on the R1, will keep this space updated as and when the news turns up.

Cheers
Krishna

[Rachit.K.Dogra]

Originally Posted by krishnaprasadgg

So I repeat the test for a short ride and it behaves the same. On the first cold start of the bike, it takes multiple attempts before the bike finally cranks up, on average 3-4 attempts, and once the bike gets going and is ridden for some km, I can safely switch off the bike and switch it on again and it starts in half a crank no problems whatsoever.

Well, this pretty much has been my story as well. In my case, this becomes a bigger problem in winters. We still don't know if lower temperatures make R1 harder to start or batteries slightly loose their ability to retain charge or a combination of both. But this issue has bothered us quite a bit during last 2 winters.

We now have moved to a Lithium Battery and really hoping this fixes it for me.

Best of Luck!!
Rachit

[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by Rachit.K.Dogra

Well, this pretty much has been my story as well. In my case, this becomes a bigger problem in winters. We still don't know if lower temperatures make R1 harder to start or batteries slightly loose their ability to retain charge or a combination of both. But this issue has bothered us quite a bit during last 2 winters.

We now have moved to a Lithium Battery and really hoping this fixes it for me.

Best of Luck!!
Rachit

That's 2 different things Rachit, extreme cold conditions are naturally taxing on the batteries, but for me, the same outcome was caused by the armature burning and the 2 out of the 4 carbon brushes wearing out unevenly even(I'll post much more detailed photos when I get the old starter motor in my hands). And yes in the cold getting enough juice to get it started is a pain. We never have to encounter that situation down South because as you know we never get that harsh of winters at all. While Li batteries don't do too well in extreme cold conditions double-digit minus degree types, they do exceptionally well in any other situations

But yeah Li battery will give you a trouble-free experience for a long long time like I had when I had the Shorai Li battery, alas, like we already discussed, getting it here anymore has become a daunting task, to say the least.

Cheers
Krishna

[krishnaprasadgg]

Update

So in the last post I was looking at having to procure a brand new starter motor for the R1, and luckily enough I was able to find one almost immediately in stock in India and I placed an order for it, which cost me an eye-watering 33k, but in the grand scheme of things for a generation of R1 that's known to chew through starter motors every few years, mine last for over 11 years and 41k worth of startup so I'd say not bad. And this is the single highest expense I have incurred to date in the 4 years plus of ownership of the R1. So in that sense, it's all good.

The order was placed on 3rd March and the Part arrived in hand on 6th March.

The part was handed over to Karthick and he set on fixing the new starter motor into the bike and everything was buttoned back up. Post which he updated me that now the bike is cranking and starting up on the first crank just as it should be.

Since I was out of town the bike was stored in Highlander till about 12 th when I was able to go and collect it, which gave Karthick a few days to check the cold start of the bike and make sure everything was in order, I also had a few odd jobs to be done as I had a ride coming up in coming days and all of those was promptly completed.

Here is the brand-new starter motor (Part no: 14B-81890-00-00) that was installed.

And here is a video of the first start on a cold engine when I went to collect the bike from Highlander

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI14xUU6jY8

P.S: The metallic lucky sound you hear on startup is occasionally the hydraulic cam chain tensioner making the sound as it hasn't had oil run through it yet. Happens when the bike has been sitting for a few days without much running. Triumph owners in particular will be very well accustomed to this sound.

Post this went & filled up the R1 with a full tank of XP100 as the coming day was to be the start of a 3-day ride with the R1. Talk about Baptism by Fire for the new starter motor.

Cheers
Krishna