[neil.jericho]

Thanks for sharing this thread, Dr CD. For casual industry watchers, I dont think there are any massive surprises but the numbers do tell a compelling story.

• While many of us bemoan the ever escalating prices of superbikes in the BS6 era, the market seems to have no qualms with it.
• Many manufacturers would have done a lot better if they had more bikes available for sale (example Honda, Suzuki). Their loss is probably Kawasaki's gain.
• Kawasaki's Z900 being top of the charts is expected. It has all the ingredients to continue being the market leader.
• Did the Vulcan S have its best year ever? Harleys exit from the entry level cruiser market probably sent a lot of buyers to Kawasaki showrooms.
• While Im not surprised by the performance of the Rocket III, the numbers of the Tiger 900 are interesting. Considering that Tiger 800 owners havent really upgraded en masse to the Tiger 900, I believe that the 900 is probably attracting new buyers into the fold.
• Triumph must be happy with the 295 units of the Trident but it hasnt been a success here in the Kerala market. Hopefully, it can continue to bring in more volumes for the British manufacturer.
• I was talking to a Harley owner and as per him, the company is getting a decent number of bookings nowadays. Even with the Hero partnership, which basically exists to keep things moving. Bollywood seems to have taken a strong liking to the new Harleys, so I expect the company to clock decent numbers in 2022 as well. I guess we were wrong in predicting the deathknell of the iconic company in India.
• "Overpriced Honda. Lol" is the usual refrain with the Honda middleweights but Honda seems to have the last laugh in sales. They arent sitting on any inventory for their big bikes and there is still demand for the Africa Twin and 650 twins but there werent any bikes to be sold.
• Its the same story with Suzuki. If they had imported another 100 units of the Hayabusa, they would have sold that out within a day or two.
• Suzuki needs more models in its India portfolio. The GSX-S1000GT can easily steal some sales from the Ninja 1000 and the GSX-S1000 can attract the attention from the small set of buyers looking at litre class nakeds. A limited run of 10 Katanas for India could also work.
• BMW had a decent showing in 2021 as well. As per news reports, around 90% of the 5,191 units sold were from the 310 twins. Ballpark figures indicate that BMW would have sold around 550 units of its big bikes which is not bad at all considering the stiff competition and BMWs pricing. I hear that the local BMW showroom is doing well when it comes to the sales of the big GSes.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Seeing the numbers, I really pity for Yamaha.

The only brand (at least in my childhood days) with their legendary maniac machines - RX100 and RD350. Those days, all the other brands were selling just 2 wheelers, but Yamaha was the only one selling a different breed with these 2 machines.
I was pestering my father to buy me RX100, but only got a splendor, that too after 3-4 years of pestering.

Even today, there is no machine that gives the same adrenaline, goosebumps, that the RX100 used to give. Fortunately, I now own my uncle's 1989 RX100.

Common Yamaha, you deserve to be better. Mistakes are a part of life. Learn from it and get over it.

[iamahunter]

I think Harley had the most snob value amongst the big bikes.

Kawasaki has the widest of bikes portfolio, with cruiser, tourer, naked, sports, super-sport, retro style, ADV, also their inline 4 is the most vfm with z900.

Kawasaki Z900 and Honda 650 twins are priced quite similar, so peeps who are looking for simply an inline 4 feel, go for the kawasaki. The Z also looks much modern than the cbr.
Then there's Honda's strange pricing strategy, let's just not talk about it.

Being in Mumbai, I feel Kawasaki is the most reachable. With 3 showrooms (Andheri, Thane & Navi Mumbai) compared to one of Honda, Triumph in Andheri and Suzuki only in Navi Mumbai.

Mentioning my personal experience here, Suzuki Navi Mumbai doesn't really seem interested in selling big bikes. After waiting for almost a month for the sales guy to show up for a test ride (which he had confirmed), i gave up on the Vstorm.

Yamaha is missing out big time here

[amods]

Data doesn't put a complete picture of demand and supply. Talking for myself and about a Honda here. I personally know 3 people(including myself) and few on forums who wanted a 650R real bad. But Honda in Bangalore is out of stock since god knows when until march 22.

Point is - it is not always the demand which is less. Poor planning from companies contribute to sale data sometimes.

[VijayAnand1]

Honda with the recently updated 650R at 9.35 lakh is a thorough bummer. I mean, a great bike that's needlessly overpriced than what the competitors have to offer. Honda could have played it safe with its middle weight contender and lo they decided to do the unthinkable. Only time will tell if the 650R is to stay or silently pull down the wraps, when the community least expects.

Cheers!
VJ

[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Only time will tell if the 650R is to stay or silently pull down the wraps, when the community least expects.

As per this article, Honda has SOLD OUT all units of the CBR650/R for the year 2021 - total of 177 units without a single rupee of discount being offered.

This has been happening calendar year after calendar year since 2017.

Why would they discontinue a product that is a commercial success?

[Vasuki]

Originally Posted by //M

It would be great to see where Ducati, Aprilia & Moto Guzzi, Benelli, Indian and BMW Motorrad stand in terms of numbers.

Heard from the Ducati dealership at Kochi, they had a great last year and Ducati India in general.

OT: 2021 was the best year for Ducati Worldwide. Source

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Honda with the recently updated 650R at 9.35 lakh is a thorough bummer.

Originally Posted by GoBlue

As per this article, Honda has SOLD OUT all units of the CBR650/R for the year 2021 - total of 177 units without a single rupee of discount being offered.

In the true sense of the word, the 650R twins are not overpriced then - despite us crying foul! Honda certainly has demand even after coming up with a 21% rise in price during just two years.

While I'm not very surprised with the CBR650R, I'm truly at a loss trying to figure out how the CB is selling at prices higher than the Z900. Haven't tried it so need to assume that may be it has some special quality that just can't be understood from specifications.

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

In the true sense of the word, the 650R twins are not overpriced then - despite us crying foul! Honda certainly has demand even after coming up with a 21% rise in price during just two years.

While I'm not very surprised with the CBR650R, I'm truly at a loss trying to figure out how the CB is selling at prices higher than the Z900. Haven't tried it so need to assume that may be it has some special quality that just can't be understood from specifications.

Indeed! That's precisely the reason perhaps why Honda gets greedy every now and then. This being a CKD Thailand then and now, I don't think there's anything krpytonite about the quality to write to, a neat little package with decent quality. Perhaps, if my memory serves me correct, there was also some news and grapevine that "Honda might slash prices manufacturing high capacity engines over 300 Cs, i.e. 500 and 650 engines here in India. Same pricing story with the CBR250R, and the same old story with the CB300R. Just Honda way perhaps.

Originally Posted by GoBlue

Why would they discontinue a product that is a commercial success?

Exactly GB. I sincerely hope so and wish they don't let their own greed pull the plug on it.

Cheers!
VJ

[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

In the true sense of the word, the 650R twins are not overpriced then - despite us crying foul! Honda certainly has demand even after coming up with a 21% rise in price during just two years.

While I'm not very surprised with the CBR650R, I'm truly at a loss trying to figure out how the CB is selling at prices higher than the Z900. Haven't tried it so need to assume that may be it has some special quality that just can't be understood from specifications.

This is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread where we were discussing Honda pricing.

Pricing interpretation is a matter of perspective.

While I’m not here to hold a candle for Honda, let them succeed or fail on their merits (or the lack of them), clearly the market is responding to this pricing positively. They are sold out of product 3-4 months after a launch.

That clearly indicates that the bikes are not overpriced for SOME. And those SOME are enough for Honda to sell out stock. Why would they NOT increase prices year after year? For a change, let us think about it from a commercial business standpoint. If customers are lapping up product even after ridiculous pricing relative to competition (Z900), does it not make sense to increase margins by inflating cost?

My personal opinion about the CBR650/R is that it is definitely overpriced and I would never consider buying it at these prices. That doesn’t mean it is not a great bike, it’s awesome for the package it offers. I would pick a Triumph Street Triple 765R any day over the CBR650/R twins.

PS: the CB650R looks way better than the Z900. There’s a section of the market that does not like aesthetics of Z900, and their priority is to look for a “good looking” 4-cylinder roadster. They are not interested in outright power or engine displacement. That’s the camp who’s buying the CB650R.

The Suzuki GSX S750 being discontinued post BS6, means there aren’t other alternatives in this niche segment.

[sharan_si]

Where is Yamaha, Their R6 and R1 are the best in segment, its more of a failure from Indian branch than the product!!.

[Nilesh5417]

Honda's are overpriced - no two ways about it. Simply cause they have takers isn't enough to say their bikes aren't expensive. Even that these days seems to be a byproduct of an artificially created scarcity. But everyone is doing it more or less so won't blame Honda alone. Atleast they have a decent line up unlike Yamaha and Suzuki.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

In the true sense of the word, the 650R twins are not overpriced then - despite us crying foul! Honda certainly has demand even after coming up with a 21% rise in price during just two years.

Dr CD, isnt this what I have been saying for years on this forum! While we all feel that prices of most of Honda's large motorcycles are steep, the company is finely tuned to the actual demand (and not keyboard demand) of the 650s and never has to worry about sales. Of course, the market has shown that it wont just accept everything that Honda does, the lack of sales success for the Fireblade and the CB500X (though technically not a superbike on paper, even if it is a superb bike in my heart ) proves that comprehensively.

GoBlue has nailed it with his analysis. + 100 to his points.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

While I'm not very surprised with the CBR650R, I'm truly at a loss trying to figure out how the CB is selling at prices higher than the Z900. Haven't tried it so need to assume that may be it has some special quality that just can't be understood from specifications.

I find the Hondas to be the most approachable and usable middleweight bikes in the market today. That isnt to say that the Z900 or the Monster 950 or the Street Triple are unusable or bad motorcycles, but thats the only difference that I can ascertain with the CB(R)650 twins. YMMV.

Maybe the sales of the Honda 650 motorcycle arent solely predicated on the products merits per se but the positioning, looks, street cred, service support, riding conditions etc, which also play a critical role in the decision making.

I feel the the middleweight segment has different segments of buyers. Many Z900 owners will not seriously put their money down on the Street Triple 765 series and vice versa. You can tell them about the Triumph's flickability and handling and what not, but most Z900 buyers will be 100% happy with their choice of bike. We can throw in the Honda CB(R)650 and Ducati 950 into the mix and its the same as well, even if we interchange the models this way and that.

GoBlue just mentioned that he would pick the Triumph Street Triple 765R over the CBR650/R twins, whereas for me, its the opposite. (P.S - dont ask me when Im selling my Triple and booking the CB650R. Im buying lottery tickets every day to afford the lovable Honda.) Each one of us will have a different preference.

That said, the Z900 appeal to the broadest segment of buyers in India and coupled with its aggressive pricing and Kawasaki's wide service network, it will remain numero uno in entire market. Not just the middleweight market.

P.S - One of the last Honda 650s from the Cochin showroom recently got picked up by a TBHPian from Trivandrum . Maybe he can share his 2 cents on why he went with it over the competition.

Originally Posted by sharan_si

Where is Yamaha, Their R6 and R1 are the best in segment, its more of a failure from Indian branch than the product!!.

The Yamaha R1 isnt really known as the best bike in its segment and the sales of the R6 were so poor globally, that Yamaha didnt make it compliant with the latest emission norms. Abroad, one can only buy the R6 as a track bike since they cannot be road registered. So it is unfair to say that the R6 is the best in its segment, when it isnt in any actual segment.

That said, yes, Yamaha should at least have brought the sensible new R7, or the MT07, or the MT09, or the MT10 or the ..... Disappointing stuff from the company that twice in its Indian history, was known as the favourite of enthusiasts.

[bf1983]

Everyone is saying Honda should be happy with 177 units sold of their two 650cc models but that's hardly anything to be happy about when the Ninja 1000 alone sells more than that. If you compare the faired Ninja 1000 and the naked Z900 sales they simply dwarf Honda's piddly 177 numbers. If Honda had priced the bike a bit cheaper and brought in more models they could have had double or three times those sales easily.

The Trident 660 sales shows how a brand new bike priced well can do good numbers. I am sure if Triumph price the Tiger 660 well it might outsell even the Trident 660 in overall sales.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by bf1983

Everyone is saying Honda should be happy with 177 units sold of their two 650cc models but that's hardly anything to be happy about when the Ninja 1000 alone sells more than that. If you compare the faired Ninja 1000 and the naked Z900 sales they simply dwarf Honda's piddly 177 numbers. If Honda had priced the bike a bit cheaper and brought in more models they could have had double or three times those sales easily.

Actually, it is the opposite. Honda is more than happy selling just 177 units of the 650 models. They dont want to sell two or three times that number. That why they have limited stocks. Honda knows it service capacity and doesnt seem to sell more than what it can manage to service well.

As a business, it is sound strategy, though for us enthusiasts, it may not be great news.