[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Actually, it is the opposite. Honda is more than happy selling just 177 units of the 650 models. They dont want to sell two or three times that number. That why they have limited stocks.

+1

To add to this discussion, Honda does NOT want to position itself as a mass market brand in higher displacement motorcycle segment (like Kawasaki/Triumph).

They have made their premium positioning clear. Want a Honda, pay the premium. Period.

[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

Honda's are overpriced - no two ways about it.

Isn’t Ducati, BMW, Aprilia pricing overpriced as well?

Question 1: Is that acceptable? If yes, why?

Question 2: Why should Honda price their bikes cheaper than these competitors?

The goal of a business is to milk it’s customer base, increase margins, demonstrate sustainable growth and increase shareholder value. All of this, while offering QUALITY products. Which they are INDEED giving.

Why the internet expects Honda to behave like a charity is beyond comprehension.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Screenshot 20220125

What is with the July 2021 Honda Goldwing sales? 11 of them were sold in this month, and 0 for all other months. Do they just record sales once a year, or someone did a group purchase

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by GoBlue

They have made their premium positioning clear. Want a Honda, pay the premium. Period.

Originally Posted by GoBlue

Isn’t Ducati, BMW, Aprilia pricing overpriced as well?

Question 1: Is that acceptable? If yes, why?

Why the internet expects Honda to behave like a charity is beyond comprehension.

Great point there. But one reason I can think of right of the bat could be that Honda's so called premium positioning is only India specific. Whereas Ducati, BMW, etc have a global premium positioning with respect to their products.

Taking the CB500X for example - is priced at $6799 much below the NC750X in the US, which in turn at $8499 is priced below the Versys 650 at $8899. But in India the CB500X and Versys have a similar pricing.

Or in the UK - a CB650R is priced at £7399 against the Trident Sport 660 at £7395 and well below a Street Triple R priced at £9300. But in India, the CB650R is priced closer to the Street Triple and may even slightly exceed it, if the 2022 CBR650R are anything to go by.

Honda is a commuter brand in their positioning. That is evident everywhere except India. Is it acceptable for them to charge a premium just in the Indian market? Doesn't matter. As long as there as customers lining up to buy their products, no much of a choice but to accept anyways.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Dr CD, isnt this what I have been saying for years on this forum!

On the contrary - for Honda motorcycles you are personally interested in - you have called them out as overpriced.

Quoting examples from your CB500x review (where you have rightfully called it out, judging by the lack of demand) -

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Unfortunately, the CB500X is overpriced by at least a couple of lakhs and Honda needs to consider offering the same no road tax, no insurance cost deals for the CB500X, that it provided for some of its bigger motorcycles. Or something better. Only then can riders like me think about heading to the nearest Big Wing dealership with a chequebook in hand.

I'm curious to know if you would still rate the Trident 660 as 'not so smartly priced' though? The £7395 Trident priced at 6.95 lakhs has sold 295 units, whereas the £7399 CB650R at 8.67 lakh has done combined dispatches of 177 units (which is likely to have more sales of the faired version).

Now, if the CB isn't overpriced because there is enough demand, what makes the Triumph so, given it's unprecedented success?

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

What is with the July 2021 Honda Goldwing sales? 11 of them were sold in this month, and 0 for all other months. Do they just record sales once a year, or someone did a group purchase

These are dealer dispatches, not sales to end customers. Honda imports kits and sends them across in batches and hence you can see spikes in their numbers across a couple of months.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by GoBlue

Isn’t Ducati, BMW, Aprilia pricing overpriced as well?

Question 1: Is that acceptable? If yes, why?

Question 2: Why should Honda price their bikes cheaper than these competitors?

The goal of a business is to milk it’s customer base, increase margins, demonstrate sustainable growth and increase shareholder value. All of this, while offering QUALITY products. Which they are INDEED giving.

Why the internet expects Honda to behave like a charity is beyond comprehension.

Already answered by CD for me but like it or not, Honda is no BMW or Ducati. Ducati prices were always always at a premium from get go.

Also, just cause Honda or other manufacturers do what they do and it works doesn't mean I to agree to it. Maybe it is great business logic but nothing in there for me as a prospective customer.

Creating scarcity by bringing lots is simply building FOMO - never liked it! If the idea is to keep the superbike penetration in check, it just might work.

[RMN]

Im just shocked to realize that Harley pretty much outsold rest of the manufactures combined from 2016-2019 and yet closed shop!!

Pity to see Honda, Suzuki & Yamaha just ignore this market. I believe if they really tried like Kawasaki & Triumph, the overall sales for big bikes could go up and they could also sell decent numbers like Kawasaki. But they just continue to go with the lazy & ignorant approach.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

On the contrary - for Honda motorcycles you are personally interested in - you have called them out as overpriced.

Quoting examples from your CB500x review (where you have rightfully called it out, judging by the lack of demand) -

Dr CD, if you see my posts on this thread, it is consistent with what I have maintained all this while. The CB650 twins are perceived to be overpriced on this forum but they sell out.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

In the true sense of the word, the 650R twins are not overpriced then - despite us crying foul! Honda certainly has demand even after coming up with a 21% rise in price during just two years.

Which is why I quoted this (added the bold part now), and said ...

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Dr CD, isnt this what I have been saying for years on this forum! While we all feel that prices of most of Honda's large motorcycles are steep, the company is finely tuned to the actual demand (and not keyboard demand) of the 650s and never has to worry about sales. Of course, the market has shown that it wont just accept everything that Honda does, the lack of sales success for the Fireblade and the CB500X (though technically not a superbike on paper, even if it is a superb bike in my heart ) proves that comprehensively.

this.

There is no doubting that I cant afford some of the Hondas which I like. But as GoBlue astutely put it

That clearly indicates that the bikes are not overpriced for SOME. And those SOME are enough for Honda to sell out stock.

Honda is pulling a Toyota in the superbikes space in India. We may not like their strategy, but there are enough people who are willing to put down big money on their products. As a business, that is what matters.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I'm curious to know if you would still rate the Trident 660 as 'not so smartly priced' though? The £7395 Trident priced at 6.95 lakhs has sold 295 units, whereas the £7399 CB650R at 8.67 lakh has done combined dispatches of 177 units (which is likely to have more sales of the faired version).

Now, if the CB isn't overpriced because there is enough demand, what makes the Triumph so, given it's unprecedented success?

Context is king. Numbers can only tell that much without the story behind them.

If we go back and look at the sales charts from recent years, Triumphs sales havent risen as much as the company, and their dealers would have liked it to. Talk to businesses who do business with motorcycle dealerships and they will tell you the same. Heck, talk to Triumph owners and they will tell you the exact same thing.

The Royal Enfield 650 twins have effectively dealt a serious blow to the entry level Triumphs and Kawasakis 650 quartet is also formidable competition. Not only have sales of the entry level Triumphs gone down, but the resale value has also dropped. That is something that potential Street Twin buyers have noticed and are wary of.

Without an entry level model to bring in volumes, a Triumph dealer isnt going to be very happy. In the long run, without selling entry level motorcycles, a dealer isnt going to get buyers when they upgrade after 3 years and move up the ladder.

Now if we bring in Honda into the equation, it isnt even a fruits to vegetables comparison. Here are the monthly dispatch numbers from 2021 for the 2 companies (source Autopunditz).

Now in a year when businesses found it tough, people lost jobs, Covid number spiked etc, who needed more sales? Did Honda need to sell 177 units of its CB650 twins more than did Triumph needed to sell 295 units of its Trident?

Lets add another 50 units to the equation. Would anything have changed significantly in Honda's top line or bottom line at the end of 2021, if another 50 units of the 650 twins were sold? And what about Triumph? Its a whole different ballgame now, right?

Again, I find GoBlue has already worded some of my responses before I type them.

To add to this discussion, Honda does NOT want to position itself as a mass market brand in higher displacement motorcycle segment (like Kawasaki/Triumph).

A mass market player needs mass market sales. As their entry level bike, that is what the Trident needs to do. Garner mass sales. If it was priced Rs 50K lower in the ex-showroom (which is what a majority of Triumph owners expected, this figure isnt something that I randomly made up), Triumph would have easily sold many more Tridents. And this isnt just speculation. A lot of superbike owners who I have spoken to, have gone and checked out the Trident and their common refrain is "It isnt worth the price".

[GoBlue]

What is clearly evident from this discussion is the passion that Honda evokes in the hearts of enthusiasts. Not seeing such passion being expressed for any other motorcycle brand.

Honda India is an extremely shrewd operator.

Honda’s flagship motorcycles are priced at-par or higher than their European counterparts across the world, those are the halo models. The quality and fit/finish of those bikes is at par with (perhaps even better than) comparable Ducatis/BMWs, and even more exclusive than either of them. Shall desist from complicating the discussion by comparing the Africa Twin with its peers.

As a paying Honda customer, I find Honda bikes to be far more exclusive, equally well built and easily serviced/maintained. To elaborate “exclusivity”, haven’t seen a single Africa Twin randomly out on the roads in Pune, whereas there are several Multistradas, GSes easily spotted. My bike’s (notional) resale value keeps appreciating year after year, while that of (some specific) European motorcycles keeps stagnating/dropping (leave it for the initiated to guess which motorcycle this is). Speaking as a Honda motorcycle owner, what more does one need in motorcycle ownership? It is a superlative experience.

Honda IS a premium brand - let us not underestimate them by calling the brand as a commuter one. They have products which are in the commuter segment in this country or that, sure, but the brand equity is unmatched. Gone are those days when only Italy or Germany made premium motorcycles. The times have changed, Japan makes premium motorcycles now, represented by Honda. People lust for Honda motorcycles nowadays in the same way they lust for a Ducati or a BMW.

Have we understood this change, or are we still stuck in the what-is-Japanese-must-be-cheap mindset?

[Slash]

Honda is a top of the line premium bike brand with fantastic build quality no doubt, but their pricing in India seems more of a reflection of their revenue targets than of the brand image. They are happy to sell a few bikes at exorbitant prices and call it a day on a first come first serve basis - not a great long term strategy for any business.

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by GoBlue

Honda IS a premium brand

Umm, no, Honda is not a premium brand if you compare it to a Ducati or a MV Agusta, or in the sense marketing dictates what premium is. It never is and never wants to be.

It, however, makes very well built bikes, with excellent quality and has brought the game at par against Italians and Germans. The Honda NR 750 and RC 51 are two bikes that are drool worthy, command a premium and showed the world what beauties the Japanese can create. But Honda never aspires to be a "premium" brand globally. They want to make awesome bikes, race, have fun, go nuts once in a while, and provide customers a platform that allows them to have options. This is the same company that makes the Honda cub, the Grom and the CB RRRRRRRR. Very few companies have the same ethos. Most premium brands cater to a certain spectrum of clientele and then sprinkle some choices to the money light mortals.

Honda does not want to be pigeon holed into a label. It tried that approach with the Acura brand and went nowhere. Is Honda, Ducati, Aprilia, BMW overpriced in India? Absolutely yes, they are. But they prefer to keep prices overpriced.

Indian consumer behavior is totally different from the rest of the world. We value price but will not compromise on quality. We want to spend Rs 10,000 in a showroom but want the same service and lavishes showered on us as if we are buying Rs 10 lac item. If a quality product is offered at a reasonable price to us, we act suspicious and say its fake or the product is defective. If the sales person is overzealous, we feel the person is trying to push us a defective product...........the list goes on.

Honda understands that keeping prices inflated and slightly out of reach makes the customers to "want" these items more and feel "superior". It is a classic marketing ploy.

[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by no_fear

This is the same company that makes the Honda cub, the Grom and the CB RRRRRRRR. Very few companies have the same ethos. Most premium brands cater to a certain spectrum of clientele and then sprinkle some choices to the money light mortals.

Interesting perspective this.

I would love to continue this discussion this over a cup/glass of preferred beverage.

Motorcycle brands and motorcycles can be a touchy subject and alternative opinions can (at times) end up hurting feelings on public forums. Especially when it comes to the (alleged) premium-ness of Italian motorcycles.

Let us ride our bikes and enjoy what is surely a brilliant era of two-wheeled fun.

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by GoBlue

alternative opinions can (at times) end up hurting feelings on public forums. Especially when it comes to the (alleged) premium-ness of Italian motorcycles.

Alternative opinions are what make a forum interesting. Everyone is entitled to their views. If you are ever in Delhi, let me know, we can continue this conversation over samosa and chai.

[doga]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Honda is a commuter brand in their positioning. That is evident everywhere except India. Is it acceptable for them to charge a premium just in the Indian market? Doesn't matter. As long as there as customers lining up to buy their products, no much of a choice but to accept anyways.

Honda positioned as a commuter brand? In which context? If you meant it's not exotic or premium like the Italians, then yes- actually all Jap bikes are much more ubiquitous so they'd be less aspirational.
If you say this in the context of pricing and affordability, then for products which compete with each other, the Hondas historically have been priced above the other Japs. Also this image of better built, finished and longer lasting Honda's is not exactly peculiar to India. Even in Europe, Honda enjoyed this reputation and charged a bit of premium over other Japs- perhaps not so much as in India. I am sure if you look at the pricing of their bikes over the past 15 years in Europe, you'd find them pricier than other Jap bikes and not too far off the Triumphs.

True they are a mass market brand and can never lay claim to be Boutique/Exotic but I don't think they position themselves/are perceived as commuterish in most places!