[Animesh]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

^^^ Animesh, Usually when you are in areas where you are likely to hit bad terrain somewhere, you are highly unlikely to be driving fast, so you Cannot hit these SUDDENLY.

Ah, I should have been more pin-point I guess. What I meant was something like gravel, pit filled with water, etc on road. I don't know why you thought of rain and snow. Anyways.

The important point is that a 4WD system works if and only if the vehicle is on 4WD mode. That is the reason why a lot of people prefer AWD which truly answers the need for driving-anywhere capability.

AWD come with their own shortcomings. However the whole objective of starting this thread was the understand why (not) one should buy a certain type of set-up. A reasoned approach is what is more important than arriving at a conclusion. Same shoes doesn't fit everyone.

Excellent inputs by HVK, GTO, Shankar Balan, tsk1979, DKG, Zulfi, Nilanjan, Roy, SS-Traveller, and everyone else. Keep them coming.

[roy_libran]

^^^ :-)
Animesh, if you intend to be travelling at three digit speeds and want your vehicle to have full control over unexpected problems with the road surface, I guess, AWD with ABS makes some sense. But, a 2WD vehicle with ABS etc. will also suffice for most such situations. The goal is to NOT let your wheels slip by controlling the Torque and Braking Force distribution to the two sides of the car.

So, IMHO, the price that you pay for the AWD set-up, may not be completely justifiable. Moreover, the typical penalties that you pay for an AWD set-up (unless you go the premium sedan way) would be, an increased GC (negative impact on Handling) and decreased Fuel Efficiency (due to additional transmission losses).

For the most part of my driving in India, I'd still find a Part-time 4WD set-up more preferable than an AWD, unless the place where I live makes me expect a lot of Black Ice on the road (e.g. Toronto, Montreal etc...).

Sorry, I keep harping about 'Black Ice', since I have enjoyed a nasty 'Black Ice' patch, once on my way from Toronto to Niagara, and it scared the pants off me. The MUV I was travelling in was doing around 70 mph, and we almost hit the Steel rails on the side of the road, before the driver could regain control (sheer luck). For that situation an AWD with ABS would have been fantastic.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by IronH4WK

- my parents might decide to come and stay with us permanently. Hence require a people mover.
- they've two Labradors and it would be easier for them to travel in a SUV/MPV as compared to a sedan. We might be getting a dog of our own in the near future.
- I want a vehicle with a go-anywhere attitude and not get stuck when I decide to get adventurous.
- I intend to (whenever it is) travel to Leh/Laddakh (and other similar places) and back in one piece.

Like a few people have said, since your parents might not be able to "climb" into a vehicle like the Safari or the Scorpio, try the Innova or the XUV which are very comfortable vehicles for elderly people.
Also, depending on how adventurous you intend to get, both these vehicles, especially the XUV should take you places, in its awd avatar.

Leh/Ladakh can be done even in a hatchback. Don't worry about that.

Originally Posted by IronH4WK

Now, to my queries:
- what is the interval at which one has to service an SUV and what is the cost involved? I get my car serviced every six months or 5000km whichever is earlier.
- what might be the cost difference between the servicing for a 2WD vs 4WD approximately? I'm referring to regular service not breakdown repair.
- how problematic are SUVs (2WD/4WD) as compared to sedans and hatches?
- are SUVs comfortable for long drives (as compared to sedans)?

I'm willing to pay the difference in cost between a 2WD and. 4WD, but I want it to be an informed decision. my favorite is the Pajero, but it's way out of my budget right now.

Most diesel vehicles today have a standard service interval of around 15k kms for oil changes and a detailed service with oil replacement should cost around 8-10k at the max.

The service difference between a 2wd and a 4wd is not significant. It would be around 5% of your cumulative service bill unless something is broken.

Any good SUV which is established in the market is pretty reliable today and niggles are far and few between, very much comparable to sedans if not better. Also, keep in mind that SUVs can take abuse much better than sedans so you, in all likelihood will end up doing much lesser visits to the ASC compared to a sedan.

Comfort means different things to different people. For me, comfort is space, lots of it with a good view of the road ahead coupled with insulation and ride quality.
Sedans, while offering a superior ride quality compared to an SUV, do not offer that kind of space and visibility. So, it is best decided on a test drive.

Happy Shopping.

[Manuuj]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

Well, I have managed admirably in most places with my 2WD Scorpio where they told me it could not manage. But I would have done lot more places with a 4WD without any worries.

I used to own a 4x2 Mahindra MM540 DP. It was a great and very capable machine but had got stuck a number of times when the terrain was even mildly challenging. Slush caused by snow caused it to slip and the slush caused by monsoon caused it to get stuck in my college parking lot which was not paved at the time.

There were many roads i did not take a for fear of getting stuck and regretted terribly that the 4x4 had not been available to me at the time of purchasing due to a strike in the Mahindra factory.

With a 4x4 option available one thing guaranteed to you besides better handling is peace of mind and the confidence to tackle roads and terrains you otherwise normally would not.

Even if you live in a city, like i do, and rarely go offroading,like i do, if the option of 4x4 is available...go for it.

[shankar.balan]

My parents are 70-ish and mid-late 60's respectively. My mum had a hip fracture 11 years ago and so on. She is not in the best of health overall.
However, they have been used to Jeeps right from their plantation days.

Dad loved the Scorpio when it was there and the Bolero before that because he liked driving them and sitting high to see the road better. Also the GC, which is a big advantage on our lousy roads.

Mum loved both those vehicles on account of the high seating position and overall visibility afforded to a passenger. What they didnt like was the wallowy nature of the beast, over bumps and on relatively bad roads and potholes, especially when sitting at the back. The Bolero leaf springs were painful and the Scorpio's lateral shake, rattle, roll and wallow is most irritating.

No other worries with either of these. (Both were in 2WD format). We have been to Ooty and Coorg etc numerous times in those vehicles. For older people, they generally dont like being jolted about too much so one has to drive accordingly if the passengers are to have a comfy ride and enjoy the trip.

My Bolero has helped me shift house along with my three doggies (2 large Alstatians and 1 Labrador) all at the same time. My Scorpio has had my dogs as passengers to the vet and so on or for joy rides because the dogs love loafing about in a car as they have been used to it right from puppyhood.

I would have bought a Safari when I actually bought the Scorpio - I didnt buy it because I found it too large in comparison to the Scorp. But I will say even now, that the Safari's ergonomics are infinitely better in comparison to the Scorp. There was at that time, a worry about Tata's servicing etc too but that is now water under the bridge. At that time I considered the Fusion TDCi Plus with ABS which was just introduced (April 2008 or so), but rejected it on account of lack of space (as per my wants/ needs at that time).

I can tell you that there are relatively few vehicles here which are quite as practical and well priced as the above-mentioned Scorpio, Safari and Bolero.

However, one cannot drive at high speeds with parents OR dogs in the vehicle because it will make them feel ill.

Its not fair on the dogs either because they simply wont be comfortable since they lie down and being slightly cylindrical in nature when they lie down, will tend to roll off on hard braking or if one hits a bump hard and fast.

I would not cause that kind of trouble for my dogs and would advise anyone else to consider this point, simply out of affection for all canines, great and small.

Ref costs - as I have written earlier on this thread, budget about 20% more for a 4WD than a 2WD over the course of its life.

Mahindra generally advises a servicing every 5K Kms - each service can cost about 5000 for the 5K one and every 10K when oils and fluids etc get changed, the cost can go to perhaps 8-9K. If you are as obsessive as I was with my M&M's, you could end up spending around 25K per annum on servicing - to me it was worth it because my jeeps were always in tiptop shape and I would go anywhere anytime I felt like it. Contrary to what everyone may think, an SUV need not be frighteningly expensive to maintain - provided you practice preventive maintenance and generally look after it nicely. You can generally look after a Mahindra Scorp or Bolero very well by spending around 12-14K per annum -works out to say 1500 bucks a month. It will keep going on and on. Assuming 100 litres of Diesel a month - say 4600 Bucks and another 1400-1500 a month (average) on maintenance - 6000 bucks. Assuming an EMI of about 12000 -14000 or so (given that you make a good solid downpayment), the cost outflow per month should be around 18K -20K or so - reasonably affordable, given the kind of service you will get back in return.

At the time I owned these, I found the 4x4 versions too expensive as they came only in the top variant, which had many many fiddly electronics and foolish things like Tyre Pressure Monitoring System etc - which are rendered useless on our horrible roads anyway. (I didnt like all that stuff). Had those chaps at M&M offered me a 4x4 Lx I would have bought one. It would have been great if it had had ABS atleast if not the Airbags - atleast as an optional extra. The Scorpio and Bolero both badly need ABS atleast because their braking is bad. You must not drive these vehicles at really high speeds. I never exceeded 90-110 for the most part. Very dangerous if one goes at a faster nick!

Today, were I in the market for a good, reliable, solid 4x4 which is reasonably priced, reliable, has lots of safety kit like ABS and Airbags, has lots of space for parents, dogs, luggage etc, all travelling around the same time, I would frankly buy in the order named below:

1. Brand New Scorpio*/ Safari - top end (*Scorpio Mhawk - I would not buy any other but, the VLX one with Airbags, ABS, Captain Seats and AT)
2. Used Pajero ( with some trepidation on account of maintenance concerns)
3. Used X Trail (but maintenance can be expensive)
4. Used Tucson (out of production and availability of spares would worry me)
5. Used Endeavour (tough as old boots but Endy's can be wallet melters in terms of maintenance costs)

Were I to buy, I would drive these beasts relatively slowly, would not attempt land speed records in them or try cornering too fast on curves in the plains or in the hills. I certainly would NOT use any of these as my single daily driver to office and back because these are simply too large (from my perspective). For daily use, I would invest in an additional top hatch.

Else, as an option, keeping all the above in mind, I would simply settle for a V Version Innova (never mind its van like and bland looks), preferably the one with Captain Seats and ABS etc etc.

I would live with the 2WD because otherwise it makes the BEST sense overall. Toyota's maintenance would be in the region of Rs 1000-1200 or so MAX per month- say about 12000-14000 per annum. I would even consider a Xylo if I were concerned about the budget - but here again, I would buy the top end version only, which has all the fiddlies that have become necessary, given the speeds at which one tends to go these days.

Hope this general rant helps you to some extent!

P.S. I might consider an XUV500 W8 too, but if I were you, I would allow it to settle down a bit in terms of niggles and stuff, before buying.
As a natural upgrade from the Scorp, I did consider the XUV seriously, but decided in favour of the LittleBigFoot for various reasons which I've been on and on about on other threads.

Originally Posted by IronH4WK

I've a query to the veterans out here with SUVs (or relevant experience with them). I might be in the market for a new vehicle and I was thinking of an SUV for the following reasons:
============
I'm willing to pay the difference in cost between a 2WD and. 4WD, but I want it to be an informed decision. my favorite is the Pajero, but it's way out of my budget right now.

[Animesh]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Today, were I in the market for a good, reliable, solid 4x4 which is reasonably priced, reliable, has lots of safety kit like ABS and Airbags, has lots of space for parents, dogs, luggage etc, all travelling around the same time, I would frankly buy in the order named below:

1. Brand New Scorpio*/ Safari - top end (*Scorpio Mhawk - I would not buy any other but, the VLX one with Airbags, ABS, Captain Seats and AT)
2. Used Pajero ( with some trepidation on account of maintenance concerns)
3. Used X Trail (but maintenance can be expensive)
4. Used Tucson (out of production and availability of spares would worry me)
5. Used Endeavour (tough as old boots but Endy's can be wallet melters in terms of maintenance costs)

This list is exactly why most of us are very excited about the new launches.

1. Brand New Scorpio*/ Safari - top end (*Scorpio Mhawk - I would not buy any other but, the VLX one with Airbags, ABS, Captain Seats and AT)
Probably the best buy among the ones available in the market if one wants to get a new one. But other than the rugged nature of the vehicle and awesome engine, hardly brings much cheers. Looks aren't exactly great (I understand it is subjective.) and neither are the road manners very good inside the city.
2. Used Pajero ( with some trepidation on account of maintenance concerns)
Everyone wants to buy a Pajero. I want one too. But outdated by a big margin. Like the looks and the Dakar pedigree of the machine.
3. Used X Trail (but maintenance can be expensive)
I guess most people if they are really thinking of buying a SUV in a budget would probably limit themselves to the other two choices mentioned above. Used Trails are available dime a dozen here in Mumbai and nobody is buying them because the prices aren't still reasonable.
4. Used Tucson (out of production and availability of spares would worry me)
5. Used Endeavour (tough as old boots but Endy's can be wallet melters in terms of maintenance costs)
Doesn't even fit in as a compact SUV. And you have already mentioned the Maintenance costs associated.
6. Probably a Suzuki Grand Vitara: I have seen few available that have run for 40K and quoting for around 8 lacs. Interiors aren't top notch but a capable machine. Bad bad mileage. And only available in Petrol

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Animesh

This list is exactly why most of us are very excited about the new launches.

........

This is precisely why I sold my Scorpio and went hell for leather and bought the Yetibeast! I took my parents out in it for a good long chukker today and they were extremely pleased indeed. Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing available in India right now apart from the Yeti which came anywhere close to meeting my particular requirement. Yes it was expensive but it gives one so much by way of cosseting, comfort and capability that it is worth it in my opinion! An Uncle of mine also sat in it today and said that he hadn't felt quite so comfortable in any other car lately. And he's driven all sorts of cars over the years, both in India and abroad. He is a sort of connoisseur of cars, one might say.

Perhaps only the Duster will come close and be reasonable in its pricing as an added advantage. But I sure do hope it comes in its 4x4 avatar with scads of safety stuff as well!

[m_upreti]

Originally Posted by IronH4WK

I've a query to the veterans out here with SUVs (or relevant experience with them). I might be in the market for a new vehicle and I was thinking of an SUV for the following reasons:
- my parents might decide to come and stay with us permanently. Hence require a people mover.

- Most SUV's (barring the Endeavour) seat 5 comfortably, the third row is best left for children and real short people.

- they've two Labradors and it would be easier for them to travel in a SUV/MPV as compared to a sedan. We might be getting a dog of our own in the near future.

- Scorpio offers a good amount of space for large dogs with third row folded.

- I want a vehicle with a go-anywhere attitude and not get stuck when I decide to get adventurous.

- Unless you intend to cross rocky streams & try extreme offroading a 2X2 scorpio will fit the bill.

- I intend to (whenever it is) travel to Leh/Laddakh (and other similar places) and back in one piece.

- People have been to Leh/Ladakh in a M800 / Nano and came back with no issues. The roads in that reagion are really well maintained and unless you encounter a landslide on there should be no problems with any vehicle.

Now, to my queries:
- what is the interval at which one has to service an SUV and what is the cost involved? I get my car serviced every six months or 5000km whichever is earlier.

- - Depending on the driving conditions (extreme offroading would require more frequent servicing) regular driving with some amount of dirt track would not have much difference on the service intervals.
For a scorpio the reguklar servicing and top ups are nominal

- what might be the cost difference between the servicing for a 2WD vs 4WD approximately? I'm referring to regular service not breakdown repair.


- how problematic are SUVs (2WD/4WD) as compared to sedans and hatches?

- I upgraded to Scorpio from a WagonR and not much of difference as far as maintenence is concerned, unless you get a bad piece.

- are SUVs comfortable for long drives (as compared to sedans)?

- Depends on the driving style, however, a sedan would any day be more comfortable than a SUV, specially for the middle & third row passengers.

I'm willing to pay the difference in cost between a 2WD and. 4WD, but I want it to be an informed decision. my favorite is the Pajero, but it's way out of my budget right now.

- I would love to suggest the XUV500, but given the niggles in the vehicle and the delivery hassels I would suggest you go for the Scorpio 2WD which is a tried and tested vehicle, the 4WD is hardly used in normal circumstances.

Close your eyes and go for the 2X2 Scorpio VLX

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by m_upreti

Close your eyes and go for the 2X2 Scorpio VLX

I knew Mahindra makes two-wheelers, but how do they manage all-wheel drive on a 2-wheeler?

People have been to Leh/Ladakh in a M800 / Nano and came back with no issues.

The quantum of issues is not usually discussed in travelogues. Ask the IPHE team travelling in assorted cars, and they'll tell oyu exactly how much beating which car took. With a 4x4, you come back in a little better shape. With something like the 4wd Scorpio/Safari/Pajero/Fortuner etc. you usually come back, wash the car, and are back to the daily commute from the next day.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

I knew Mahindra makes two-wheelers, but how do they manage all-wheel drive on a 2-wheeler?

Long time back Yamaha had showed a proof of concept 2x2! (Used a hydraulic motor for the front wheel)

Regards
Sutripta

[droolingvoyager]

The classic question which goes on and on 4wd against 2wd.

In 1993, I did not know there existed a 4wd. I was barely 18 and daring to go anywhere my Dad's Premier Padmini could take. The Longest I could take her was to Darjeeling and not without many problems. So many that My dad asked me never t drive his car again.

However, I can remember now, the stretches we did was too risky for that car. We managed somehow.

Next, I was close to a Hare Krishna devotees. A close friend was a monk there (had left everything). These guys used to travel to remotest of places on a Tata 407 (modified to carry some 5 folks with a ton of luggage and books for preaching activities. I have been accompanying them ( as I did not have my own vehicle at the time ) to some of the places even now I dream of. Tawang, margherita, changlang etc etc. In 1995, even if you wanted to go to Itanagar you had to cross 2 very fast flowing streams. While visually it looked daunting and extremely risky to me. Our 407 Driver, (i remember his name - Biplab da, hailed from Navadweep and now drives big buses across states), would just be fine and drive across it safely and soundly. Every morning he used to religiously wash the mini-bus (very nicely infact, even though it was a job for him) and prayed Gods within his bus with incense sticks. I remember, I had been atheist to my large extent of early life and what my devotee friend had failed in making me realize, humble Biplab da could with his actions.

One thing I learned a right driver can drive his machine anywhere (meaning most of the places you can go). See HVK for another proof. What he has seen probably none of us have.

Now, coming to facts. India is a country where people make things happen with bare minimums. Example, a Maruti 800 on the Bangalore - Mysore Highway giving a hot chase to Porsche Cayenne. A two wheeler with a full family on it zipping past in top traffic. Sadly the pillion riders are not wearing helmets. A Alto at Rohtang pass, Truly speaking even though they can cross it I disagree to such pleasure trips at such high risks. Basically I hate anything which is done without weighing the pros and cons of it. Even though our Biplab da never met with an accident, I think when he tried to cross over some of the daunting stretches on 407, It was sheer luck (God's Hand) that nothing happened. Although not many are lucky and we can see that from the statements like 'India leads world in road deaths: WHO' - Average 13 people die every hour making it to 1.5 lacs in a year. thousand times more than any terror attacks.


we do things in our country out of necessity, (jugad) look at the Bullet Busses in Rajasthan. Are they safe? but they are plying happily with a lot of people on board. Most of our cars lack Basic security, comfort etc. probably just to minimize costs. Day in and out when I drive I feel, somehow Our roads are so dangerous that its just probably God who may be activating some super human reflexes and saves many of us. Not joking this thought is inching closer to belief now days.


I understand its good to prioritize your requirements, it will help you decide.

1. you have a family (or will have in near future) and are they going to come along : (yes/No)
2. you drive long occasionally: (Yes/No)
3. you love nature and would love to explore a bit more: (Yes/No)
4. you drive because driving is a pleasure and stress buster to you: (Yes/No)
5. you are aware of the no. of deaths in Indian Highways: (Yes/No)


Just having a good car/suv is not all, we need better roads and better education for drivers.
For most of the above I have a yes, However I do not have a budget for a 4x4 with all safety I can get for my family. Hence a 2 WD with all safety features is my best bet. I would need to curb a bit of my mind (only sometimes) but its a small price to pay for the safety and security of my family.

How to know you drive long:
long drive kms = clocked_kms - (Office_kms*2*252)

[shankar.balan]

Most of the old gen Jeep type things were RWD or 4WD. In their 2WD avatars they were always RWD in those days.

FWD has some excellent advantages (if the vehicle is a 2WD one). The old 1980's FWD Maruti 800DX used to zip past our old RWD Amby's and so on, in the hills. A Maruti could actually go up muddy tracks where an Amby or Fiat would struggle.

FWD definitely gives one better traction and otherwise behaviour on hilly terrain. Excellent fun they used to be. But these were very light cars and with very light engines too.

I was concerned about a 2WD FWD SUV and preferred it to be RWD if it was a 2WD because I ve been used to those old Jeeps etc.

I always thought that if the "drive wheels" in a 2WD also had to support the engine weight as well as handle the steering and the "drive", there could be some loss of efficiency in tight, slushy or other situations.

However, I have since learned that this is not necessarily the case. I had a very hard time in my 2WD RWD Scorpio, when trying to climb up a 45 degree incline on loose gravel and stones. There was no chance of building momentum as that 45 degree incline came just after a very sharp left hand turn (almost 90 degrees). The RWD 2WD simply couldnt handle it. I got only wheelspin and the smell of frying clutch, for my pains.

By contrast, a simple Maruti 800 with FWD was able to buzz up that incline - possibly on account of its light weight, compact dimensions and FWD. A Mahindra Major was able to chug up that incline in 4WD mode with a full complement of passengers.

I drove an AWD Subaru on some wet grasslands and so on sometime back - that vehicle of course had traction control and all the other fiddly bits, so there was no problem. I also drove a small FIAT 500 up some hilly terrain some time ago - being an FWD it went very happily up the hills. However, its engine does not have enough "juice" in it.

With ref to the Yeti, because it is an AWD 4x4, it can pretty much handle most of these off track situations, within limits. Of course it would have relatively limited capacity for wading or swamp and desert riding and suchlike in comparison to a Land Cruiser or something of the sort.

The new FWD Yeti in its 4x2 avatar seems quite ok, but I have read reports that it doesn't handle as well as its 4x4 brother. Meaning the 4x4 Yeti is really good and even its 2WD brother doesnt come close.

I dont think there is anything wrong in buying a 2WD FWD SUV - given that most people wont be taking such a beast severely off the road into the jungle etc.

In a 2WD, be it an FWD or RWD, if at all one ventures into deep slush etc and gets stuck, then one good way of getting out, is to introduce some harder substance (like a plank of wood or a log or some flattish stones - whatever one can find nearby) and use those to try and provide some traction to whichever set of wheels is spinning without purchase. Of course, it becomes very very difficult if the wheels are covered in mud, because the mud acts as a lubricant between the wheel itself and the ground/ surface and just keeps spinning! A real pain in the neck, I can tell you, which warrants being towed out by someone else!

In a nutshell, if you are buying a 2WD vehicle, it really doesnt matter whether it is FWD or RWD - it cannot be taken into seriously deep off road situations. At best, it can handle mild soft road work. Be aware of the limits of the vehicle, and you will do fine!

I think the Duster even in its 2WD FWD format will be a formidable vehicle because of its short overhangs and high GC. It will become a very worthy competitor to the Scorp and Safari etc and will certainly handle better on account of its more modern monocoque chassis and driving dynamics as well.

[m_upreti]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

I knew Mahindra makes two-wheelers, but how do they manage all-wheel drive on a 2-wheeler?

The quantum of issues is not usually discussed in travelogues. Ask the IPHE team travelling in assorted cars, and they'll tell oyu exactly how much beating which car took. With a 4x4, you come back in a little better shape. With something like the 4wd Scorpio/Safari/Pajero/Fortuner etc. you usually come back, wash the car, and are back to the daily commute from the next day.

Point one a blooper from me

Point 2.. I myself have travelled Ladakh and thereabouts in a M800, and as you said came back, washed the car and back to the daily grind.

It all depends how much punishment you want to give your car in terms going off the road, despite it being available, with my Scorpio I don't mind stepping off the tarmac more often than not, which i would not have done with my WagonR.

So, personal opinion, unless you are a complete off road enthusiast, you don't need a 4WD

[recker_us]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Most of the old gen Jeep type things were RWD or 4WD. In their 2WD avatars they were always RWD in those days.

FWD has some excellent advantages (if the vehicle is a 2WD one). ....

That was a good piece of info on the Front Wheel 2wd and Rear Wheel 2wd. Pasting some more info on it:
Benefits of Rear Wheel Drive

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by recker_us

That was a good piece of info on the Front Wheel 2wd and Rear Wheel 2wd. Pasting some more info on it:
Benefits of Rear Wheel Drive

We have also seen this issue debated multiple times, so please let us not mix the original question on this thread, with this other issue.

Refer:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...-choose-3.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ed-reason.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...s-fwd-rwd.html