Team-BHP > BHP India > What Car? > SUVs, MUVs & 4x4s


View Poll Results: Your choice?
Isuzu MU-X 3.0L 4x4 A/T 4 2.61%
Mahindra Alturas G4 2.2L 4x4 A/T 9 5.88%
Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4L AWD A/T Petrol 1 0.65%
Honda CR-V 1.6L iDTec AWD A/T 3 1.96%
Ford Endeavour 3.2L 4x4 A/T Titanium 92 60.13%
Toyota Fortuner 2.8L Sigma 4 A/T 26 16.99%
Skoda Kodiaq Style 2.0L TDi 4x4 DSG 18 11.76%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th March 2019, 15:48   #31
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

We only have the option to vote for AT's, no MT? The Fortuner MT 4WD would be my choice, as there was no option to vote for this particular option, I had to mention this here.
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Old 8th March 2019, 16:23   #32
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

Pretty obvious, it is Endeavour 3.2 AT for me.

I still not able to convince myself why Tbhp members are buying Fortuner over Endeavour. With ample of posts and points shared in favour of Endeavour it really makes me think why we are not able to convince our enthusiast brigade. Anyways I am more than happy that at least I followed the Tbhp voice.
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Old 8th March 2019, 17:17   #33
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

No takers for an otherwise attractive Honda CRV? Is it because of the puny engine and low power output? Their features list is full to the brim.
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Old 8th March 2019, 21:06   #34
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
We only have the option to vote for AT's, no MT? The Fortuner MT 4WD would be my choice, as there was no option to vote for this particular option, I had to mention this here.
The variants I chose for this shootout were the respective top variants of each SUV to keep the playing field level, so all turned out to be AWD+AT combinations.

The delightful Fortuner MT 4x4 has received an honourable 'exclusive hit' mention in the shootout's Hits and Misses section.

Last edited by vigneshkumar31 : 8th March 2019 at 21:13.
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Old 8th March 2019, 22:12   #35
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Well a very well written thread and a very well researched one at that.
This is my dream segment. And not me every bhpian or rather Indian would love to have any of these vehicles as the crown jewel in their garage.
I really appreciate the effort and the info in this thread.
My two cents. Anyone who is spending 40 big ones will not do so for a frail beauty but rather for the easy service, low maintenance, easy availability of spares. Simply put peace of mind.
So my vote.
Emotionally for the sheer butchismo of the 3.2 Ford. In white with the raptor grill with the big FORD written up front.
But logically I will buy the brute shogun- T Fort. Why? 4x4 with a 6 speed manual with a low transfer case. And the Toyota peace of mind. In pearl white please.
Thanks once again for this wonderfully crafted thread.
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Old 13th March 2019, 19:37   #36
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

Voted for the Endeavour. Elimination criteria?

Non-existent A.S.S? Check.
Doesn’t care about customers? Double check.
Outrageously overpriced? Hell yeah!
No diesel? R.I.P
Mitsubishi Outlander

Fairy tales about A.S.S? We are the father of them all!
Reliability? Oh yeah. Better than Toyota. Especially the 1.8 DSG.
Weak engine for its class? Yup. Why cannibalise the Superb?
Overpriced? Not so much but could have definitely been priced lower
Brand image? Sure! We are Skoda. Enough said.
Skoda Kodiaq

Overpriced? Yes. Makes the Fortuner look very VFM.
Essential features missing? Standout features.... (drumroll) Rear 10-inch TV! Shoutout! Really luxurious!
Low dealership reach? Check with flying colours
Auto box? Yup. Slick-shifting ZF 8-speed.
Brand value? Why worry when there is the Fortuner around? We will beat them for sure! Because in India, Isuzu is a famous Japanese brand with brand recall even more than the Fortuner.
Isuzu MU-X

Engine? Yes sir! We will serve you with best in class power: 116 bhp! Very strong, isn’t it?
Low-rent interiors (for the price)? Check! We will wash you down with plastic!
Price? What sarr? It is truly VFM. 28 lakhs? No problem sir! Fortuner who? We are Honda and we will overprice it!
Butch looks? Street presence? Of course sir, it’s a diesel 7 seater! What else do you need?
Honda CR-V

*no problems so far until*
Price? Sure! We will not undercut our main rival the Fortuner because we are so sure we will beat them!
Brand image? What are you talking about? We sell 10-lakh crude Boleros and Scorpios! The XUV500 is as reliable as the Innova. Beat that Toyota! Ours cars exude luxury and exemplary fit and finish.
Alturas G4

Interiors? Luxurious for sure. Feels plush for sure.
Price? Mah segment, mah rules. If you don’t buy, then someone else will buy! Let other SUVs be priced however they like. We will move to the 40-lakh segment and still sell like hot cakes!
Ride quality? Plushest in class. Almost beats the Hexa. Just a little bounce here and there. What do you expect man? Nobody’s perfect! Like we said, mah segment, mah rules!
Equipment?
Allow me to quote (guess the dialogue!)
Endeavour:”Mere pas sunroof hai, auto park hai, 3 zone climate control hai. Tumhare pas kya hai?”
Fortuner: “Mere pas reliability hai”
If reliability was the USP, would Tata and Mahindra reach where they are?
No sir! We are the best. We are Toyota.
Toyota Fortuner

Which leaves me with the Ford Endeavour!
Thank you all (for reading this boring tiresome and long post)
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Old 14th March 2019, 00:07   #37
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

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Originally Posted by balderash_12 View Post
Voted for the Endeavour. Elimination criteria?
........
........
Which leaves me with the Ford Endeavour!
Thank you all (for reading this boring tiresome and long post)
Hahaha, seems like you are actually frustrated a bit by the lack of a good VFM all-rounder 7-seat SUV option
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Old 14th March 2019, 22:03   #38
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Originally Posted by balderash_12 View Post
Essential features missing? Standout features.... (drumroll) Rear 10-inch TV!
The soaring eagle facelift dropped the roof mounted screen feature.So that's gone too.

By the way, @balderash_12 on a roll, posting on all D2-7 seater threads.You too out hunting in the segment?

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Old 15th March 2019, 05:59   #39
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

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Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31 View Post
The soaring eagle facelift dropped the roof mounted screen feature.So that's gone too.

By the way, @balderash_12 on a roll, posting on all D2-7 seater threads.You too out hunting in the segment?
Yes, was looking for a replacement for the Forester. Endeavour would have been my top pick but we do not need a vehicle of its size. Will be a pain to handle in the city. Hence lowering my sights to the D1 segment.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 14:50   #40
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

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Originally Posted by Mu009 View Post
You are buying a depreciating asset - yeah, for many, the Indian mentality takes over and we start thinking of resale over quality of experience (the only explanation I have for the Fortuner's popularity).
Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
I still not able to convince myself why Tbhp members are buying Fortuner over Endeavour.
Like you guys, I have myself often wondered and tried to wrap my head around simply why does the Toyota outsell all other competition put together, despite the Ford offering more comfort, plush and kit and a brutal motor at the same price point?

I believe that the whole picture cannot be captured in just two words resale and badge. It's much more than that.

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The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout-yota_tribe.jpg
Image source cnn.com


Reproducing my lines from the original post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31 View Post

The Fortuner ?

We have often heard and made statements like Toyota sells at a premium just because of its badge. While this is true., it is still a gross oversimplification. That badge was not made overnight and the fact that the market is still willing to pay the premium demanded, testifies the focused efforts and trust the company has built over the years. There’s a good reason that UN relief workers and kalashnikov wielding terrorists alike, choose to wear a Toyota on their grill. Doesn't matter if you are going to heaven or hell, just make sure you are driving a fortuner, if you are unsure of the route. (And toyota will probably change your timing belt enroute FOC)

If I hadn’t read through this entire post. if I did no test drives whatsoever and if I didn’t want to bother myself with petty details like a feature here and a miss there. If I absolutely dedicated no time or toil towards the arduous process of selecting a car from this premium segment... I would blindly buy the Fortuner.
And I still won’t be regretting the decision after 5 years and some insane 3 lakh kms on the odo. The One You Only Trust Always will look after the car and the owner through thick and thin. And the best part, I’ll always find a buyer for a well kept fortuner at the other end of the tunnel.
Just deeming that toyota sells because resale is high doesn't complete the picture. I, for one, think that its the exact opposite of that. Toyota sells and hence resale is high

And why does it sell? Why hasn't the loaded 3.2 Endeavour or the impeccably built Kodiaq or the compatriot MU-X (who must share much of the Japanese virtues with Toyota) not able to together pull half the sales of the mighty T?

Quoting from blog.grabcad.com

Quote:

Toyota Production System

Sometimes called lean manufacturing or just-in-time manufacturing, the Toyota Production System has become legendary. It was born out of necessity, just like many innovations.

After World War II, Japan didn’t have the kind of resources America and Europe did. Instead of using multiple stamping presses to manufacture vehicle parts, Japanese automakers had to work smarter.

With a manufacturing process that wasn’t constantly forging forward, Japanese workers could bring the entire production line to a halt if they realized anything was wrong with even one vehicle. This ability is called Jidoka in Japanese. Management could then fix the problem before it was an issue for many cars. That was a different approach when compared to American and European factories, where manufacturing defects were handled after vehicles rolled off the production line. That meant other automakers didn’t catch mistakes until quite a few cars were affected.

Another key element of Toyota manufacturing has been continuous flow processing. It means less idle time in factories. One way Toyota could achieve this principle was by implementing a flexible manpower line, instead of a fixed-manpower line that can't adapt to shifting needs

The Toyota Production System actually started with W. Edwards Deming, an American sent by the U.S. government to help rebuild Japan after WWII. He implemented a set of measures for production quality to be constantly improved, instead of just being a periodic activity. The idea behind this approach was that by always making changes to boost quality, a manufacturer would achieve sustainable growth.

Over time, the rest of Japan's automotive industry began mimicking Toyota's strategy. But Toyota has continued to perfect its approach, keeping it ahead of the pack.

More Mimicry

Obviously, Toyota's manufacturing techniques are secret. Other automakers have tried duplicating them, with varied levels of success.

One of the most interesting examples comes from GM. During the 1980s and 1990s, the American automaker engaged in lean manufacturing principles, but it didn't turn out so well. Among the many reasons why was internal bureaucracy sabotaging those efforts. The rise and fall of Saturn is among the most potent examples of how that happened.

Workers and even management within GM resisted and even sabotaged the lean manufacturing process. They found it a threat, or thought it wouldn't work.

Transition to 2017. Most automakers have been successful at using the Toyota way in their manufacturing practices. As a result, vehicle reliability throughout the industry is way up, and consumers reap the rewards.

The big question you likely are asking is why is Toyota still at the top of the heap when it comes to reliability, if everyone's copying it? It has to do with profitability. Thanks to numerous internal efficiencies, Toyota has notoriously fat profit margins. The company can spend more in R&D, engineering, etc., which means improved reliability. That in turn sells cars, which fuels big profits, and the cycle continues.

More Reliable Doesn't Necessarily Mean Better

To be frank, just because Toyotas run forever with few problems doesn't mean they're necessarily engineered better than BMWs, Cadillacs, or Fords. As Consumer Reports concluded, American and European vehicles have more reliability issues because they incorporate more cutting-edge designs.

Those more complex designs include not only electronics, but also innovations in chassis layouts and powertrains. A prime example is how many European cars can be found with a dual-clutch transmission.

Go to a car show, and you'll notice most automakers wow everyone with the most cutting-edge designs possible. Calling Toyota a little bland wouldn't be a completely inaccurate accusation. One of the secrets to Toyota's success is the conservative nature of its vehicle designs. By sticking with tried-and-true systems, Toyotas don't give owners as many problems.

If you don't mind the lack of the latest and greatest features, the tradeoff is worth the lack of reliability issues. For some drivers, the banal nature of Toyotas (and Hondas, for that matter) turns them off. It's a matter of personal preference.

Everyone Has Their Dogs

Some car shoppers erroneously think if they buy a Toyota, or other Japanese brands, they'll have zero reliability problems. That simply isn't true, but this perception is quite powerful.

The fact is you can purchase a Toyota and deal with a whole spate of repairs. But the likelihood of that happening is quite a bit less than with other mainstream brands. For that reason, Toyota constantly lands at the top of reliability studies and surveys from J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, and others.
Quoting from reddit:

Quote:
Firstly, they are very conservative in implementing new tech. Their R&D have pretty advance tech, but for production, everything is validated (probably) twice as much compared to other carmakers, thus by the time it’s green lit for mass production, it’s old tech.
New tech adoption is so slow and difficult, it often frustrate even Toyota employees.
Another thing about Toyota R&D, they have regional design houses, with the aim to “localized” parts design as much as possible, even the smallest design (engineering) details.
For example, the inside ribs of a Hilux’s wheels in Brazil is about 5mm thicker than the ones in Thailand, so they can withstand 12G, instead 10G, because they did a survey of Brazil potholes, found out they are 20% bigger compared to a Thailand pothole.
Vietnam tires have tickers sidewalls, because people on Hanoi like to climb over curbs. South Africa’s absorbers are 2mm thicker, because people less likely to brake when they see a rock. Air intakes for tropical countries are placed 15mm higher, because there have more floods. Tiny changes which are easily managed at parts manufacturing level, but have significant impact in reducing failure rate.
For comparison, a German 3-series’s Transmission Oil cooler may be good enough for German weather, but they are same size for a UAE 3-series, which will kill the transmission.
A Golf’s Dual-clutch is nice in Autobahns, it won’t lost long in Indonesia’s stop-go 20km/h traffic jams,
And that's why North American Toyota's a rarely exported, or Euro/Asia model imported, not only because of regulations and tax, but NA's usage condition is so much different from other countries, the cars wont be as reliable as intended.
Another thing, not all country has the same situation regarding car service. And Toyota is very knowledgeable about this.
Missed the Civic Type-R turbo oil change schedule because that single Honda dealer in your island is full? You just slash 2 years out of the turbo’s life..
But do you know a Toyota Etios in India have water proof Volume knobs, because they did a 6 month in survey 10 different states and concluded most dealers use soap to clean the interior, seriously.
And don’t let me start on materials, so many version, variation, caveats for standards, sometimes it feels like they are exporting to a different planet.
So, this is why most Toyota ends up with a 4 AT, 50hp/liter engine, with boring hard plastic interior, numb steering, and goofy tiny wheels with huge wheel arc gaps.
This is not to say that Toyota is the utopian truth and we all kneel to its halo. Its not to say that toyota has never had a sales dud, as we don't need to look farther than our own backyard for examples. But I wouldn't yet write off that that the fortuner (and the innova, for the matter) sell just because their resales are higher.

They sell because they hold their value better and that consistency couldn't have been built overnight. I would love to see any other competition match that insane 2.8 lakh kms warranty that the Fortuner carries.

I may ramble on further, but the fortuner is the Shogun of the segment and unilaterally decides the price bracket of the D2 SUVs. I will remind myself of that fact if and when I pick up my Endeavour, for if not for the Fortuner, this Ford 3.2 Titanium+ would have unabashedly been priced well and further north than where it is.

@Mu009: I am aware, like myself, that you too follow Mr Demuro's work closely. The video "Here's Why the 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser Costs $85,000" drives the above point across pretty neatly.


Last edited by vigneshkumar31 : 22nd March 2019 at 14:57.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:57   #41
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

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Originally Posted by sunilch View Post
Hahaha, seems like you are actually frustrated a bit by the lack of a good VFM all-rounder 7-seat SUV option
Absolutely @balderash_12! Your analysis is spot on. Except the Endeavour, there is a deal-breaker for all the SUVs. But no one is perfect IMHO, there should be a full-sized SUV priced below the Endeavour and Fortuner, maybe around 20-22 lakhs. That would be a killer pricing! Tata can do it with their Buzzard It can undercut its rivals by a good margin. Please share your opinions.
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Old 25th March 2019, 15:27   #42
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I just noticed how the front grille chrome slats of both competitors have turned out to be looking similar on closer inspection

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Old 23rd April 2019, 15:03   #43
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Great comparison! I just hope there are a few more options in the 25Lks range a few years down when I really have to change the Cedia I'm driving. Despite its power and handling (and my unconditional love for her), it did let me down on a few hills and flooded roads. Understood the value of 4x4 in those times. Endeavour 4x4AT looks damn attractive to me now (except for the price).
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Old 23rd April 2019, 17:23   #44
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

One word, If I have to Utter looking at the level of details and analysis this post has, it will just be WAAAV !!

How can one go to such a wonderful analysis !! Just superb.

But, I am just curious about the voting on the vehicles. When both World wide and in India, Fortuner has been the top most seller, how come, during the voting in this post, Endeavour has taken the top most position? Just curious to know.

Is it that while Voting, most will vote for Endeavour and while actually going for purchase, they go with Fortuner? what could be the pschycology behind this?
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Old 12th June 2019, 15:06   #45
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Default Re: The definitive full-size 7-seater Premium SUV shootout

Wow. Impressive analysis Vignesh.
I am currently looking for a SUV (upgrading from Manza). So this thread has enlightened me a lot.
I test drove MUX 4x4, Fortuner 4x4 AT, Endeavour 3.2 and Hexa 4x4 MT. Here's my take on them.
MUX 4x4 AT
I drove it twice. Ride quality is good. It can easily accommodate 7 people. Floor under second row is flat unlike other options. Recent upgrade has enhanced its safety features. 3 l engine will never run out of juice. Interiors and seats are in black, which I liked. Some may not like it. Music system output is good. Spare wheel is full size alloy. But there are many features which they have omitted in Indian market. e.g. MUX in Thailand comes with 8 inch infotainment system with navigation and android play. 220 V power point for middle row passengers.10 inch infotainment display has been removed, which is still available in Thailand market. Also the tyres 255 60 R18 which come with MUX are not readily available in market.
It is a simple no nonsense, built to last SUV. It should have been priced 3-4 lakhs less. I am still considering it.

Fortuner 4x4 AT
Most popular SUV in India. Toyota starts to impress you right from the time you enter the showroom. Service is amazing. For some reason I dont like present Fortuner much. I liked the plush interiors. 3rd row is cramped a bit when compared to MUX. Spare wheel is full size alloy. Drove it on highway for few kilometers. Ride quality is good, as expected from this segment. I liked it, but family not happy with 3rd row comfort. Not considering.

Endeavour 3.2
The dealer had scheduled TD a day after. But I walked in a day before as I was passing by, just to get some information. Luckily they had one old 3.2 (key start model). Wow level of gadegetry makes you feel MUX is overpriced! Endeavour is expensive, but you get max juice out of money you pay. I hope these sensors last long. It has a wide sunroof which my famiy liked a lot. I wish 3.2 also came without sunroof. I am concerned about its strength and weather tightness in long run. Also access to 3rd row is cumbersome. I prefer dark interiors, but 3.2 has all beige interiors. Spare wheel is a size less. I dont know why they make such silly cost cutting. No buyer would hesitate to pay a little more extra for full size spare. Took a test drive of few kilometers on highway. You can feel the power surge when you press the accelerator pedal. Felt most powerful of all. Instantly fell in love with it. Considering it.

Hexa 4x4 MT
Although its altogether from a different segment, I wanted to try this out. After driving 3 automatics, I am already a spoiled man! I didnt like MT on Hexa 4x4. Hope they had AT in 4x4 version also. The engine is powerful though. And it has many features which lack in some of the cars I test drove earlier (cooled glove box, infotainment system with android play, door ajar warning lights/ puddle lamps on all four doors). Not considering.

Now its a tussle between head and heart. While the head says go for MUX. Buy a reliable one and Save money.The heart says nothing but Endeavour 3.2.
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