[parimal_g]

Hello Guys,

One of my friends owns a Honda Amaze petrol model, the car's Engine got seized on 26th Dec 2014 suddenly on express highway, the car was towed by nearest workshop and then there it was diagnosed that there was no oil in the engine.

But then it led to many questions. The story i wanted to share here because Honda and its dealers said they will not cover damage under warranty as well as under Insurance. At the time of incident car was not even one year old, it was serviced as per the Honda schedules and the repair cost is whopping 2.7 L Rupees and as per Honda Dealer they cant give a new Engine as per directives from company. Parts will get assembled at dealer premises.

Following are the Details about the Incident as described by my friend.

"Vehicle Details :
Model : Amaze - Petrol
Company : Honda
Vehicle Cost : 7 Lacs 70 Thousand (Ex - mumbai, all incl + insurance + nil dip)
Date of Purchase : 20 Feb 2014
Service conditions : The vehicle was periodically serviced on the given dates and through Honda recommended Service centers only.
Last Service Date : 4 Aug 2014
Insurance : The vehicle was under insurance cover and Honda assurance and a nil dip coverage on the date when the below incident occurred.
Nature of service : 1st year warranty - free service

Summary :
The vehicle was serviced on 4 Aug 2014. The Engine Oil was filled and i was charged an amount of 1300/- for the same. The vehicle had been running well without any issues for three months. There were no indications or alarms of any kind.

My average running during weekdays is 24 kms per day (My office is close to 12 kms from my residence).
The only major long distance drivings had been the occasional (once a month) leisure trips. The max running for those trips had been for 500 kms (to and fro). The vehicle never had a running of more than 5 hours on any given day. and had a max continuous running close to 4 hours (around 250 kms) on one particular occasion.
As on 25 Dec 2014, the vehicle's total running was close to 10500 kms. There had been no accident or damage of any kind to the engine or any of its core/internal parts.

From the last service date, my vehicle had ran only for around 5000 kms. There were no major trips or running.
On the morning of 26 Dec 2014, I started my journey from Mumbai to Lonaval (close to 100 kms) along with my wife and my four year old son. Before the start of the journey, I got the fuel filled for a full tank and had checked for any alarms or issues. The vehicle had shown no sign of any alarm of any kind.

My Journey was smooth and without any casualty of any kind. I had traveled close to an hour. I was on the mumbai - pune express highway. I had passed a couple of tunnels and was on the highway nearing the third tunnel, when my vehicle abruptly started slowing down. The vehicle ceased and would not start. As indicated in the Honda assistance guide, I called for the highway assistance and my vehicle had to be towed to the nearest Honda Authorized Service Center at Nerul (Navi Mumbai). On initial examinations, the service techs informed me that the vehicle would not jump start and would have to be examined in detail.

I was asked for a couple of days to perform the examination. A few days later, the Service center representative told me that the vehicle's engine had been badly damaged due to no engine oil in the vehicle.
I asked for a detailed report on the nature and causes of the damage and was told that the detailed examination would have to be done by dismantling the engine and examining each part carefully.

The service center said that this would incur an expense of 12,500/- towards labour charges. I agreed for it and in the following week the engine was dismantled. After a week, the representatives came back with the report that the engine oil had leaked and that caused the engine to cease. They also showed me the area where the leakage had occurred.

It was the engine-oil filter area that had a minute crack and the oil had been leaking from there. There was no explanation as to how the crack had occurred. The techs only speculated that a stone might have hit that area and could have damaged it. There was no evidence of any stone inside or any other damage to any other parts.
The techs informed me that the engine had been totally been damaged and the repair costs were 2 lacs 70 thousand. In other words, the engine would have to be replaced completely.

I claimed for insurance but the center denied it saying that this was consequential damage and not an accident. They also rejected my claim for nil dip or for that matter the 1st year warranty.

I repeatedly asked for an evidence or reason of oil filter damage, but was not given any.

As of now, the vehicle is still lying in the center, and the center guys are threatening me that either i give a go ahead to the repair and agree to the costs or they would be charging me a parking charges of 350/- per day.

Observing the overall scenario, it is likely that the area of the oil filter could be easily be damaged and this incident could occur to any one and the costs would be borne by the consumer thereof.
"

1.>What are other ways to pressurise Honda/ Honda Service..?
2> Is the Location of the oil filter culprit..? Then why its not protected.?
3> Is it a good idea to lodge a complaint with consumer court ..? Any Idea about the procedures and expenses.


Also attaching few Pictures for reference.

[Shreyans_Jain]

This is quite weird. This very engine is used in the Jazz and Brio, and the City's 1.5 iVTEC also has identical placement of the oil filter. I have never heard of this kind of incident before.

Also, the engine will not seize as soon as all of the oil drains out. The immediate consequence of driving with no engine oil is overheating, and consequent tripping of AC. Both of them are obvious and noticeable. It is overheating that ultimately leads to seizure. The low engine oil lamp should also glow if engine oil pressure drops. Did none of this happen?

The explanation offered is also quite vague. The oil sump is quite robust and does not crack unless there is some serious impact. It is not the kind of thing that can get damaged by a minor stone hit.

[vinair]

For the obvious evidence, was there any indication of oil at the place where you park your car? I don't think a stone hitting the engine casing would leave such a crack with no signs of metal chipping anywhere.

To me this looks more like a case of structural fatigue that has occurred during the manufacturing stage and has been overlooked at by the manufacturer.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Has he tried escalating the situation to Honda rather than dealing with the service center? Honda doesn't directly deal with customers, but the dealer usually behave better once they know of the customer trying to escalate matters.

Also- What is the reason given by them to explain its a stone impact? Looks more like a manufacturing defect to me. (Viewing through mobile though)

Looks like your friend is up against a greedy dealer and escalating matters might help.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

Also attaching few Pictures for reference.

Is that the mark they claim the filter was hit by a stone? Close to the engine case? I have trouble believing stone hit theory if that's the damage caused by the stone, that area sits well above the lowest portion of the engine which is the sump.

[parimal_g]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

This is quite weird. This very engine is used in the Jazz and Brio, and the City's 1.5 iVTEC also has identical placement of the oil filter. I have never heard of this kind of incident before.

Also, the engine will not seize as soon as all of the oil drains out. The immediate consequence of driving with no engine oil is overheating, and consequent tripping of AC. Both of them are obvious and noticeable. It is overheating that ultimately leads to seizure. The low engine oil lamp should also glow if engine oil pressure drops. Did none of this happen?

The explanation offered is also quite vague. The oil sump is quite robust and does not crack unless there is some serious impact. It is not the kind of thing that can get damaged by a minor stone hit.

That is the surprise, in fact the placement of Oil filter is so weird and it is also not covered by any protective plate as well. There is an Internal Engine damage, but its not visible in the picture. Now dealer is blaming that you overlooked the low oil pressure warning lamp, but now my friend says he doesn't remember any warning sign. Maybe on expressway, he was concentrating on driving than warning lights.

Originally Posted by vinair

For the obvious evidence, was there any indication of oil at the place where you park your car? I don't think a stone hitting the engine casing would leave such a crack with no signs of metal chipping anywhere.

To me this looks more like a case of structural fatigue that has occurred during the manufacturing stage and has been overlooked at by the manufacturer.

Yes even I asked the same question to my friend, but no oil traces where he parks his car in the building, yes even I think this might be due to premature failure of one of the critical parts of the engine, but where did the oil go..?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Has he tried escalating the situation to Honda rather than dealing with the service center? Honda doesn't directly deal with customers, but the dealer usually behave better once they know of the customer trying to escalate matters.

Also- What is the reason given by them to explain its a stone impact? Looks more like a manufacturing defect to me. (Viewing through mobile though)

Looks like your friend is up against a greedy dealer and escalating matters might help.

We have tried that. Also I have spoken personally to the Dealer service center GM. They said they have escalated to the Honda and Honda has rejected the claim, and the only way to get in touch with Honda officials is through the call center nos. In fact now they are asking him to pay 350 Rs per day parking charges.

Originally Posted by Sankar

Is that the mark they claim the filter was hit by a stone? Close to the engine case? I have trouble believing stone hit theory if that's the damage caused by the stone, that area sits well above the lowest portion of the engine which is the sump.

This is what they claim, yes a small running stone can hit the filter but if such small impact can cause oil leak then its serious quality and design issue.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

This is what they claim, yes a small running stone can hit the filter but if such small impact can cause oil leak then its serious quality and design issue.

That mark is on the upper side of the filter. If it was on the lower side facing the road then there could have been a remote possibility.

What is the story of this hole in the image below marked in red? I didn't see this mentioned before.

[parimal_g]

Originally Posted by Sankar

That mark is on the upper side of the filter. If it was on the lower side facing the road then there could have been a remote possibility.

What is the story of this hole in the image below marked in red? I didn't see this mentioned before.
Attachment 1350070

Even I have noticed this mark, but that's not facing towards road...it's vertical. Maybe it was damaged while removing engine from the car.

As its very difficult to get damaged like this, it's then horrible quality of Honda. I have asked my friend for explanation of this from Honda A.S.C.

[sajusherief]

Even I don't think the mark you have mentioned is a case of stone hitting(since there are no visible dents) or fatigue ( fatigue damage damage happens over a long period of use and abuse. This could be a manufacturing defect.

As Parimal mentioned, get a clear answer for the large hole, definitely it can't be a hole created while dismantling the engine.

Originally Posted by Sankar

What is the story of this hole in the image below marked in red?
Attachment 1350070

Originally Posted by parimal_g

As its very difficult to get damaged like this it's then horrible quality of Honda

[sumeethaldankar]

Try emailing below of these guys and see if you can get a positive reply.

jsen@hondacarindia.com; saba@hondacarindia.com; ravisharma@hondacarindia.com; suniti@hondacarindia.com; anita@hondacarindia.com; rraheja@hondacarindia.com; udit@hondacarindia.com; customer_relations@hondacarindia.com;


Also if the dealer is "threatening" to charge parking charges for your car then kindly get it towed to a road or some place where it will be close to the dealer's place and safe as well.

Isn't this type of issue be covered by the Insurance's own damage policy. I think what is happening is both the dealer and the Insurance co are trying to pass the buck on each other by not honoring warranty or not honoring the insurance claim. How can a engine just develop a crack just like that ? Also while mailing above guys send them this link on of this thread from team bhp.


Good Luck.

Edit: Adding one more email id artimishra@hondacarindia.com.

[arnabchak]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

Even I have noticed this mark, but that's not facing towards road...it's vertical. Maybe it was damaged while removing engine from the car.

As its very difficult to get damaged like this, it's then horrible quality of Honda. I have asked my friend for explanation of this from Honda A.S.C.

Dear Parimal

It would be fruitless to deal with the dealer here.
You will have to escalate the matter to the highest authority.
As far as I know, the escalation matrix at Honda is as below:

Sales Manager> Regional Head, Ops> CRM Manager/Head-West> Service Head, India> MD, Honda Motors

[StarScream]

Something is not right here. Even my wife's almost 8-year old Santro AT gave ample warning of an oil leak when it happened last month. She noticed the oil warning light on the way to Gurgaon and with that intermittently glowing returned all the way back to Noida - no issues. And there was a clear pool of leakage under the car where it was parked. Of course, it wasn't driven after that until it was checked and repaired. I give this example just to show that usually, as others have mentioned, it's not a sudden occurrence and there are many signs.

The pictures also look normal to me and don't indicate any catastrophic leak. Honda dealers are not the most ethical and if there was no warning and no indication then I would think this is a warranty repair. Escalate the issue to the company.

[arun_josie]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

On the morning of 26 Dec 2014, I started my journey from Mumbai to Lonaval (close to 100 kms) along with my wife and my four year old son. Before the start of the journey, I got the fuel filled for a full tank and had checked for any alarms or issues. The vehicle had shown no sign of any alarm of any kind.

Did he also check for the engine oil level? If so, was it fine before this journey?

Regarding the stone theory, if it was a bigger stone lying on the road then it would have caused a bigger damage(may be even to other under body parts). Flying stone damaging this part is not believable.

Parking charge is common, if they are not going to cover this repair work under warranty (OR) If you decide to do the repair work outside.

[latentpotential]

There was another thread some time back with an Engine failure in another brand, where the person was refused insurance as the engine was opened by the service center with the owners concurrence, but without the insurance surveyor concurrence. He was then denied any insurance claim.

Is this a similar issue by any chance?

I was asked for a couple of days to perform the examination. A few days later, the Service center representative told me that the vehicle's engine had been badly damaged due to no engine oil in the vehicle.
I asked for a detailed report on the nature and causes of the damage and was told that the detailed examination would have to be done by dismantling the engine and examining each part carefully.

The service center said that this would incur an expense of 12,500/- towards labour charges. I agreed for it and in the following week the engine was dismantled. After a week, the representatives came back with the report that the engine oil had leaked and that caused the engine to cease. They also showed me the area where the leakage had occurred.

[GTO]

Definitely a design or manufacturing defect from the looks of it. Here's another reported case with the Brio (same 1.2L engine & identical situation) - Brio engine seized.