Palio starting problem

amit · 15th October 2006, 21:35

My S10 is having weird starting problems since the last few days. The alternator was repaired about a month back and the car was working fine upto a few days back. The problem is weird because:

1. The starting problem happens only in the evenings/nights i.e. only after 7pm. This has happened both when the engine was cold as well as hot.

2. Morning starts are crisp and instant.

3. Alternator light doesn't stay on after car starts. The check ecu light also is working normally.

4. After about 2 to 15 minutes of cranking the car starts automatically.

Planning to take the car to Fortune Motors (tata-fiat) tomorrow or maybe Anuroop if I am in the mood. Today evening the car was stalled in Kharghar for about 15 minutes at 7pm. What could be wrong? I am guessing the alternator problem is cropping up again. Maybe it's not charging the battery enough? What do you guys suggest I should ask the dealer and his technician to look into tomorrow? Thanx!!

EDIT: Did a bit of googling and the fiat forum threw up this similar problem faced by a Bravo owner. The problem of another member was traced to the crank sensor. Can my Palio have a similar issue?

viper · 16th October 2006, 10:09

HI,

I would suspect the fuel pump.

Edit - And or relay as well(Thanks Moral)

Viper

prabuddhadg · 16th October 2006, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by viper

HI,

I would suspect the fuel pump.

Viper

But in that case why only in the evening? I would expect the same condition if not worse after the car has remained unused overnight.

moralfibre · 16th October 2006, 10:17

I suspect the fuel pump relay. It happened to my zen. The same way!

raihan · 16th October 2006, 15:06

Have suffered the same problem in my car, turned out to be the fuel pump relay too. The car would start normally in the mornings but afternoon/evening is when the problem occured.
Raihan

tsk1979 · 16th October 2006, 16:06

If your car is cranking fine but not starting its not the alternator. Its charging the battery. If it wasnt, then your starter motor wont turn,
Get the solenoid checked.

moralfibre · 18th October 2006, 03:05

Hey Amit, let us know what comes up. I am curious to know.

carfreak · 18th October 2006, 13:56

i have had no such problems in my 1.6,but i have often felt slight difficulty in starting at times-i have to crank for a longer time than usual.read in one issue of autocar that palio 1.6s have a wheezy starter.does that have anything to do with this?(pardon me if this doubt is silly..)
amit,please keep us posted on the developments.

amit · 18th October 2006, 15:31

The car was taken to Wasan tata-fiat after fortune motors said they don't service Fiat cars yet. Wasan referred me to a Exide shop and it turned out that the alternator wasn't charging the battery enough with headlights, A/c, Stereo switched on and I was asked to replace the alternator. The car is currently in Shaman Fiat and is expected tomorrow. Let's see if the problem is resolved.

Another issue that concerned me was the attitude of the spares section at all dealers. Anuroop said he doesn't have the alternator and front suspension of the 1.6. (there is some rattling sound coming from the front suspension) and thats why the car wasn't taken to them. Apparently, they are also in the process of shifting to a new location and are only stocking fast running items. Shaman said he doesn't have the suspension but the alternator is avaliable. When the service advisor was making the job card, I asked him when he expected the suspension to come. He said they did have the parts in stock! Anyway, Shaman got back to me in about 3 hours saying that the shock absorbers were fine and that only the ball joints and mounting needed to be replaced. Will update you guys when the car comes back.

Floyd de Souza · 18th October 2006, 16:24

I too had to change the strut mounts on my S10. It had not even completed 5000kms at the time. I was told that the Palio S10 suspension was very sensitive to tyre pressure(as it was lower) and was advised to always keep the tyre pressure 1 psi lower than recommended for our road conditions.

amit · 23rd October 2006, 21:24

Quote:

I was told that the Palio S10 suspension was very sensitive to tyre pressure(as it was lower) and was advised to always keep the tyre pressure 1 psi lower than recommended for our road conditions.

Thanx for the tip Floyd.

As for the car, the mystery deepens. Seems like my car has been playing around with me and the service guys. At the Exide shop the alternator was charging at 13.3-13.5 (idling and revving) which is supposedly normal charging but as soon as the A/c and headlights were switched on the charging dropped to 12.6-13.1 with the alternator showing 13.3-13.4 intermittently. After two days at Shaman, the alternator kept up it's charging properly and shaman guys called me and told me the car was working normally. So off I went to Shaman, kept the headlights, A/c working for about 15 minutes, went for a 30 min drive with the service advisor parked the car, switched it off for about 20 mins and started it again and the start was crisp and instant! Shaman guys said everyone from the mechanic to supervisor to service manager checked the car and nothing showed up. Got the fuel pump checked out much to the opposition of the technicians there and even the fuel pump is working fine. With all possiblities exhausted and no faults showing, I got the car back and have been driving for about 3 days now and it's working perfectly. Watch this space though, if my michievious Palio decides to play again.

major · 23rd October 2006, 23:52

Amit

I wish to share a similar experience with my S10, My car just refused to start sometimes, but used to work absolutely fine otherwise.I took the car to a local garage and there every thing like the battery, starter motor, alternator and all seems to be fine.

Then took the car to Anuroop, Goregaon, were the car was checked , it worked perfectly fine, was about to leave, then to my luck the car did not start, immediately the problem was located, the culprit was the wires connecting to battery terminal was loose , we could see spark comming out of the battery terminal, the mechanic just tightened the screws, thats it, problem was solved.

Please check if the nuts are tightly screwed on to the battery terminals.

Cheers

Major

prabuddhadg · 24th October 2006, 12:07

The Ghost in the machine...

. I do a bit of cycling, and I do all the maintenance work on my bicycle myself. Bicycles are so much simpler than cars- there is so little that can go wrong. Simple no nonsense efficient machines. And bicycles do provide thrills and enjoyment of a different variety as compared to cars. Not the right forum to discuss that, though.

amit · 26th November 2006, 16:10

Looks like the problem has been solved. On one friday afternoon the car conked off again and started after about 10 mins of cranking. Took it to a exide shop and got the terminals cleaned and re-connected the battery properly. Ever since then the car starts crisply like it always used to. Thanks guys for all the feedback and help.

greatDrive · 25th February 2007, 09:57

Hi Amit & other Petra/Palio Owners,

I am facing the same problem metioned in the thread with my Petra 1.6 for last few days, My car is 9000Km old.
Problem started after giving the Car for Servicing at Javali Bangalore.
After the service, Car was fine and I came home but Next morning It didn't Start, Cranking looked fine but Car Engine refused to Fire, Tried it for around 4-5 minutes and then called Javali Breakdown Service. They came in next 2 hour and tried starting the Car, But to our Surprise car started in just 1st Crank. he tried some more time and car started every time. So the problem was not Reproducable

. Mechanic could not find anything wrong and took Rs200 as breakdown Service fees and went away saying that they can only diagonose the problem if the problem reproduces.

Next few days Car was fine but sometimes it started giving problem in starting morning and night.
Javali Motors does not have a ECU Analyser for Petrol Cars so not sure which Service centre to take the car for checkup.Also I have a feeling that Javali Service guy might have replaced some good part with a defective one.. ( Just my assumption).

Guys what do you think, As per the rule if TDC sensor is gone, Car should not start at all. If the Fuel Pump is faulty, I should not hear the humming sound and fuel pump light should not go away.

Can fuel filter be the culprit, or my battery/alternator is going bad? As per my understading doesnot look like a Batttery/Alternator issue since service guys checked it and it looked fine.

Your thoughts and experience please.

Waiting...

15th October 2006, 21:35	#1
amit Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 3,717 Thanked: 449 Times	Palio starting problem My S10 is having weird starting problems since the last few days. The alternator was repaired about a month back and the car was working fine upto a few days back. The problem is weird because: 1. The starting problem happens only in the evenings/nights i.e. only after 7pm. This has happened both when the engine was cold as well as hot. 2. Morning starts are crisp and instant. 3. Alternator light doesn't stay on after car starts. The check ecu light also is working normally. 4. After about 2 to 15 minutes of cranking the car starts automatically. Planning to take the car to Fortune Motors (tata-fiat) tomorrow or maybe Anuroop if I am in the mood. Today evening the car was stalled in Kharghar for about 15 minutes at 7pm. What could be wrong? I am guessing the alternator problem is cropping up again. Maybe it's not charging the battery enough? What do you guys suggest I should ask the dealer and his technician to look into tomorrow? Thanx!! EDIT: Did a bit of googling and the fiat forum threw up this similar problem faced by a Bravo owner. The problem of another member was traced to the crank sensor. Can my Palio have a similar issue? Last edited by amit : 15th October 2006 at 21:44.
	() Thanks

16th October 2006, 10:09	#2
viper BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,773 Thanked: 19 Times	HI, I would suspect the fuel pump. Edit - And or relay as well(Thanks Moral) Viper Last edited by viper : 16th October 2006 at 10:22.
	() Thanks

16th October 2006, 10:17	#4
moralfibre Team-BHP Support Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: MH-12 Posts: 8,451 Thanked: 13,973 Times	I suspect the fuel pump relay. It happened to my zen. The same way!
	() Thanks

16th October 2006, 15:06	#5
raihan BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: CA/bangalore Posts: 271 Thanked: 112 Times	Have suffered the same problem in my car, turned out to be the fuel pump relay too. The car would start normally in the mornings but afternoon/evening is when the problem occured. Raihan
	() Thanks

16th October 2006, 16:06	#6
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	If your car is cranking fine but not starting its not the alternator. Its charging the battery. If it wasnt, then your starter motor wont turn, Get the solenoid checked.
	() Thanks

18th October 2006, 03:05	#7
moralfibre Team-BHP Support Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: MH-12 Posts: 8,451 Thanked: 13,973 Times	Hey Amit, let us know what comes up. I am curious to know.
	() Thanks

18th October 2006, 13:56	#8
carfreak BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Udupi Posts: 599 Thanked: 342 Times	i have had no such problems in my 1.6,but i have often felt slight difficulty in starting at times-i have to crank for a longer time than usual.read in one issue of autocar that palio 1.6s have a wheezy starter.does that have anything to do with this?(pardon me if this doubt is silly..) amit,please keep us posted on the developments.
	() Thanks

18th October 2006, 15:31	#9
amit Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 3,717 Thanked: 449 Times	The car was taken to Wasan tata-fiat after fortune motors said they don't service Fiat cars yet. Wasan referred me to a Exide shop and it turned out that the alternator wasn't charging the battery enough with headlights, A/c, Stereo switched on and I was asked to replace the alternator. The car is currently in Shaman Fiat and is expected tomorrow. Let's see if the problem is resolved. Another issue that concerned me was the attitude of the spares section at all dealers. Anuroop said he doesn't have the alternator and front suspension of the 1.6. (there is some rattling sound coming from the front suspension) and thats why the car wasn't taken to them. Apparently, they are also in the process of shifting to a new location and are only stocking fast running items. Shaman said he doesn't have the suspension but the alternator is avaliable. When the service advisor was making the job card, I asked him when he expected the suspension to come. He said they did have the parts in stock! Anyway, Shaman got back to me in about 3 hours saying that the shock absorbers were fine and that only the ball joints and mounting needed to be replaced. Will update you guys when the car comes back. Last edited by amit : 18th October 2006 at 15:35.
	() Thanks

18th October 2006, 16:24	#10
Floyd de Souza BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 320 Thanked: 225 Times	I too had to change the strut mounts on my S10. It had not even completed 5000kms at the time. I was told that the Palio S10 suspension was very sensitive to tyre pressure(as it was lower) and was advised to always keep the tyre pressure 1 psi lower than recommended for our road conditions.
	() Thanks

23rd October 2006, 23:52	#12
major BHPian Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: mumbai Posts: 53 Thanked: 0 Times	Amit I wish to share a similar experience with my S10, My car just refused to start sometimes, but used to work absolutely fine otherwise.I took the car to a local garage and there every thing like the battery, starter motor, alternator and all seems to be fine. Then took the car to Anuroop, Goregaon, were the car was checked , it worked perfectly fine, was about to leave, then to my luck the car did not start, immediately the problem was located, the culprit was the wires connecting to battery terminal was loose , we could see spark comming out of the battery terminal, the mechanic just tightened the screws, thats it, problem was solved. Please check if the nuts are tightly screwed on to the battery terminals. Cheers Major
	() Thanks

24th October 2006, 12:07	#13
prabuddhadg BHPian Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 812 Thanked: 81 Times View My Garage	The Ghost in the machine... . I do a bit of cycling, and I do all the maintenance work on my bicycle myself. Bicycles are so much simpler than cars- there is so little that can go wrong. Simple no nonsense efficient machines. And bicycles do provide thrills and enjoyment of a different variety as compared to cars. Not the right forum to discuss that, though.
	() Thanks

26th November 2006, 16:10	#14
amit Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 3,717 Thanked: 449 Times	Looks like the problem has been solved. On one friday afternoon the car conked off again and started after about 10 mins of cranking. Took it to a exide shop and got the terminals cleaned and re-connected the battery properly. Ever since then the car starts crisply like it always used to. Thanks guys for all the feedback and help. Last edited by amit : 26th November 2006 at 16:11.
	() Thanks

25th February 2007, 09:57	#15
greatDrive BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 547 Thanked: 7 Times	Hi Amit & other Petra/Palio Owners, I am facing the same problem metioned in the thread with my Petra 1.6 for last few days, My car is 9000Km old. Problem started after giving the Car for Servicing at Javali Bangalore. After the service, Car was fine and I came home but Next morning It didn't Start, Cranking looked fine but Car Engine refused to Fire, Tried it for around 4-5 minutes and then called Javali Breakdown Service. They came in next 2 hour and tried starting the Car, But to our Surprise car started in just 1st Crank. he tried some more time and car started every time. So the problem was not Reproducable . Mechanic could not find anything wrong and took Rs200 as breakdown Service fees and went away saying that they can only diagonose the problem if the problem reproduces. Next few days Car was fine but sometimes it started giving problem in starting morning and night. Javali Motors does not have a ECU Analyser for Petrol Cars so not sure which Service centre to take the car for checkup.Also I have a feeling that Javali Service guy might have replaced some good part with a defective one.. ( Just my assumption). Guys what do you think, As per the rule if TDC sensor is gone, Car should not start at all. If the Fuel Pump is faulty, I should not hear the humming sound and fuel pump light should not go away. Can fuel filter be the culprit, or my battery/alternator is going bad? As per my understading doesnot look like a Batttery/Alternator issue since service guys checked it and it looked fine. Your thoughts and experience please. Waiting... Last edited by greatDrive : 25th February 2007 at 09:59.
	() Thanks