[Jaggu]

Mod note: Keep the discussion civil please, rest take it over a PM! Thanks for understanding.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Whoa, whoa, we're getting excited here aren't we mate? Remember, this is a technical section.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

You are most welcome.

Sorry I thought this was a humor thread.

Originally Posted by AMG Power

It looks like you do not know about hub runouts either judging from your remark, I would suggest you don't go and "look for a hub runout" - you will never see it as these are not visible to the naked eye.

Phew ok. Was looking since yesterday couldnt find. I'll use thumb gauge and a microscope.

[R2D2]

OK guys, let's stop the sniping and get back to discussing those delicious brake kits

[computer]

I have the same problem. Has this problem been resolved ? Has anyone have options for after market rotors and pads for the crysta 2.8 ?

The service center guy asks me to switch to manual mode and downshift while braking to go easy on the brakes. Is this why i bought a 25lks automatic car ? This is really absurd.

[brraj]

To double up your brake force

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqeFEyaUxc

I like the logic but dont know the complexities involved.

If this is done Advantages would be
- Can use the existing vehicles components like calipers,pads though you have to make some extra brackets to hold it and extra pipes for brake oil.
- Parts available from company itself, no need to import.
- Not only innova, can be used for many vehicles which has disk brakes.

Yes, its easier said than done as layman but tuners can comment..

[Sankar]

So after more than a year since I past posted on this thread it has finally been done. Front rotors and pads of have been upgraded to slotted rotors and semi-metallic brake pads.


Front caliper carrier, pins, pin sliding cavity etc completely stripped off old grease using brake cleaner and a degreaser. One of the pins was a bit sticky on the RHS brake. Cleaned and re-used the pad retainers, there was no wear on it.


Slider pins were greased using proper grease and installed using new rubber boots for slider pin. Pad ends also got a dab of grease as per norm.


Rust on the hub was scrubbed off using a wire brush before installing the new rotor.


Cleaning the components took most of the time than the actual installation. I am not too fond of doing brake jobs myself since its messy but had to do it since I've been having recurring problem with the brakes (shudder) at high speeds and wanted to do it the best I could taking enough time. Have to do the bed-in tomorrow.

[Sankar]

Brake bite is aggressive with the new rotor and pad set. This is good considering the stock pads were not at the end of life when removed and OEM disc surface was quite good, they were not worn out when replaced.

The pad material feels different to OE in touch and feel. OEM has three slots on the pads aftermarket pads has one wide slot.


Discs after a mild bed in.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Brake bite is aggressive with the new rotor and pad set. This is good considering the stock pads were not at the end of life when removed and OEM disc surface was quite good, they were not worn out when replaced.

The pad material feels different to OE in touch and feel. OEM has three slots on the pads aftermarket pads has one wide slot.
Attachment 1920940

Discs after a mild bed in.
Attachment 1920941

Attachment 1920942

From where did you procure this? Are these genuine Toyota parts?. One of my Crysta will be due for brake pad replacement soon as it is approaching 45K, would like to consider these as replacement.

[Sankar]

These are imported and of much better quality from a top manufacturer and not Toyota oem and if you do not have brake issues the price may not be worth it. Will post details when I get back to my computer.

[Sankar]

You might have seen aftermarket performance brakes and big brake upgrades that usually come with a disc which looks a little different from the factory rotors. In most cases the difference is in appearance, for a layman a brake disc with lot of holes mean that it is a performance brake. It is not the case always and in proper race and track conditions a brake with no holes is preferred! Who would have known that, eh?

During my search for a brake upgrade for my Crysta I came across and read through several articles on brakes. This is one such article which i came across and I found it interesting enough to share since the äppearance" is also a major selling point. We do not usually give that much of an importance as to what type of a face type the performance rotor has as long as it has something, but there is more to it than just looks as we find out. I hope this article will prove useful to enthusiasts looking for a brake upgrade and are spoiled for choices with more than a single face type available for their steeds. The article below is by Brembo and I am quoting it here from their website.

Brake discs are one of the major brake tuning options which a professional race team has at their disposal at any typical race weekend. There are many subtle changes that can be made to a brake disc casting or configuration, which can drastically influence braking characteristics. A brake disc’s face type (slot / groove pattern) is one of those changes, and can influence many braking characteristics.

Some of them are:

1. Initial response (bite)
2. Control and modulation
3. Release
4. Pad wear
5. Disc wear

There are also many variables which are considered when engineering a brake disc face type. Changing some of these variables can drastically influence the overall performance of the brake disc. Some (of the many) variables which are taken into consideration for brake disc slot design are:

1. Slot depth
2. Slot angle
3. Length of slot
4. Number of slots

Brembo and Brembo Racing primarily offer 4 different brake disc face patterns based on the application, intended use, driver preference, and other technical requirements of the application or chassis.

Brembo Drilled brake discs



Drilled brake discs are suitable for a wide range of applications,, operating temperatures and driving environments (especially wet weather).

• Benefit: offers the highest initial response of all the available disc face types while continuously refreshing the braking surface and being also typically a bit lighter.
  
• Drawback: drilled discs are generally more prone to heat checking and thermal cracking if used consistently at extremely high temperatures. This however, really depends on the track, driver, and chassis setup.

Brembo Discs Type I



Brembo “8 straight – slot” face type with an emphasis on stable brake feel and improve resilience against thermal cracking.

• Benefit: stable braking feel at all temperatures, low disc wear, and continuously refreshing the braking surface for optimum performance.
  
• Drawback: The Type 1 standard disc face has the lowest “initial response” or “bite” compared to Brembo Drilled, Type III or Type V discs.

Brembo Discs Type III (aggressive face type)



Motorsport developed face type with an emphasis on high initial response while maintaining a smooth pedal release.

• Benefit: highest overall braking confidence, control, and allows driver to spend less time on the brake pedal. When chasing the fastest lap time, less time on the brake pedal typically leads to a quicker lap time.
  
• Drawback: Any disc with an aggressive face type like the Type III will have a higher chance to mechanically abrade the pad and disc surface leading to quicker or uneven pad wear. However, this really depends on variables such as car setup or track layout.

Brembo Discs Type V (endurance face type)



Motorsport developed face type with marginally less initial response compared to the type III face type. The Brembo Racing type V face type was also designed to have lower pad and disc wear for certain long distance endurance races (mostly 10, 12 and 24 hour races)..

• Benefits: braking modulation and control similar to Type III, while offering lower overall pad and disc wear on the track.
  
• Drawback: While the most well balanced of all Brembo face types, Type V discs generally do not have as high of an initial response compared to the Type III.

Src: https://www.brembo.com/en/company/ne...pe-performance

My Crysta's aftermarket rotors have a disc face pattern which is somewhat inbetween Brembo's Type V and Type III brake rotors. It is more aggressive than Type V but not as much as Type III.

Edit: There other Brembo patterns available which is not mentioned in the above article. But the list above should give you an idea on patterns and their relevance on brake performance.

[Sankar]

Choosing a disc does not end at looking at a pattern and selecting the one you like the best. If you have choices to make from multiple vendors it also helps to look at the type of ventilation used in the brake rotors.

Most production vehicles, almost all of them, come with a ventilated front discs and in all of them the vents consists of straight vanes (mentioned as "traditional lugs" in the article below). Crysta's front rotors are no different they are also straight vaned, the new rotors which I have sourced for my Crysta has pillar vanes. According to Brembo the game has moved on since then and straight vanes are the the bottom of the vented rotor pit when it comes to efficient cooling.

The most efficient design as per many scientific studies is the curved vane design but they need separate castings for LHS and RHS because the vane works the best in only one direction to pump out air and are less common.



The below is an article by Brembo on the disc vent evolution.

THE BENEFITS OF THE NEW DESIGN FOR THE BRAKE DISC VENTILATION CHAMBER

Brembo introduces the latest addition to its family of pillar venting technologies, employing pillars that dramatically improve the cooling performance of the system. Even though they don't reach the 1200 Celsius of a Formula 1 car, the braking systems on street cars can also overheat – a drawback potentially causing thermal cracks to appear on the surface of the disc.

The new ventilation system is characterised by a pillar structure designed specifically for each individual system. The pillars are arranged in three bands on the braking platform. They increase resistance to thermal cracking by up to 30%, guaranteeing a longer disc lifespan.



There is a different pillar structure on every band of the disc, designed to achieve the optimum benefit from the dynamic flow of air. The improved air flow also contributes to a drop in operational temperature of up to 30%, ensuring a longer life for the brake pads.

Another important advantage is a reduction in the weight of the disc, which can be up to 10%. This decreases both fuel consumption and emissions of pollutants and, most importantly, the reduction in unsprung weight increases performance, driving comfort and handling.

This new ventilation system is the result of two years of dedicated research by Brembo at its Kilometro Rosso site, where it has been tailored to the specific needs of individual braking systems.

For a quarter of a century Brembo has concentrated its research on the shape of the ventilation chamber. One of the first results was the development of the PVT (Pillar Venting Technology) ventilation system in the mid-1980s, which was initially applied to the Lancia Thema. For this the traditional lugs were replaced by a series of pillars to improve both the safety of the system and the life of the disc.

To satisfy the growing number of requests from the market, in 2004 Brembo designed and patented the T Pillar, primarily for use on Iveco heavy-weight vehicles. As the name suggests, the outer pillars are characterised by their T-shape and have proved to be particularly effective on heavy-weight commercial and industrial vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dC27iv7HPQ

Src: https://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/new-ventilation

[Sankar]

Update on brakes after completing bedding in:

1) Pedal pressure needed to slow down the vehicle has decreased. I am not sure if its the rotor and pad combo doing its job or the cleaned and properly lubed slider pins working its wonder. Anyway my knees are thankful, it doesn't pain much.

2) The bite is linear and aggressive. The faith on brakes is back, quickly hauls the vehicle down from speed compared to crappy OEM brakes.

3) I will never let a workshop or dealer do the front pad or rotor change in the future. One day of breaking my back is worth it and when its done right it works beautifully.

[harsha.muvva]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Update on brakes after completing
2) The bite is linear and aggressive. The faith on brakes is back, quickly hauls the vehicle down from speed compared to crappy OEM brakes.

3) I will never let a workshop or dealer do the front pad or rotor change in the future. One day of breaking my back is worth it and when its done right it works beautifully.

Hi,

Good to see that you have attempted to address the brake fade issue on innova crysta. Our 2.8 AT crysta which is one and half year old have done 38000 kilometres so far and been through one set of brake pads change recently. It is chauffer driven 95% of time and do not cross 100 kmph. However whenever i drive this shudder always bothered me. So I am planning to change the rotors and front brake pads next time around.

I would like to know how is your experience so far with upgrade? Also can I know the brand of rotors.

Almost every crysta owner I know have faced this brake fade issue & ASS either rip them with rotor change during service or if the owner is adamant they change it under warranty. Couple of taxi owners among the facebook crysta group also complain about constant shudder & wear of brake pads which is an additional cost for them, so not as profitable as previous gen innova. However there is nothing much they can do because customers “demand” innova.

PS:- I checked with few vendors, but they have only brembo/ebc brake pads and nothing on rotors.
For endeavours/fortuners there is an Austrailian brand “DBA” which makes very good rotors/brake pads.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Update on brakes after completing bedding in:



3) I will never let a workshop or dealer do the front pad or rotor change in the future. One day of breaking my back is worth it and when its done right it works beautifully.

I agree with this point. The thoroughness in doing a brake job is lacking at the service center. All they do is, pull out the guide/slide pins and dab some God-knows-what Caliper pin grease and shove them back into the guide holes. They may sand the brake pads a bit. The most stupid thing that i have seen in MASS/HASS is they reuse the old brake hardware even when the new ones are bundled along with the brake pads.

The HASS screwed up all 4 calipers on my i20 due to the repeated sub standard brake jobs. I replaced all 4 calipers since the guide holes had became wider due to improper lubrication and caused rattling on bad roads. I do the brake maintenance myself. Have done it a couple of times and know how much time and effort it takes to do a proper job on the one of the most critical safety components of the car.

Which brand rotors and pad are those?

[gkveda]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Update on brakes after completing bedding in:

1) Pedal pressure needed to slow down the vehicle has decreased. I am not sure if its the rotor and pad combo doing its job or the cleaned and properly lubed slider pins working its wonder. Anyway my knees are thankful, it doesn't pain much.

2) The bite is linear and aggressive. The faith on brakes is back, quickly hauls the vehicle down from speed compared to crappy OEM brakes.

3) I will never let a workshop or dealer do the front pad or rotor change in the future. One day of breaking my back is worth it and when its done right it works beautifully.

Dear Sankar
Really thankful to you for your write-up on brembo brakes disc for your Innova.

I am in the requirement of changing my fortuner front discs due to ageing (55k kms). It has been trimmed once at 35k kms and now again showing up slight vibration on brakes pedal at high speed while applying more pressure on pedal.

My request to you is, would you recommend me to get brembo disc for my fortuner or should I stick to OEM only? Please suggest

Will wait for your recommendation