[rahul_goyal]

I can't even imagine the time, patience and efforts it took to revive the car. A lot of people would have given up and would have even thought of selling the car.

Driving it with jerking issue for 7000 kms and feeling disappointed everyday. Worst nightmare ever.

Kudos to you for not giving up and reaching to the bottom of the issue. Many people will benefit from the experience you have shared with us.

Wish you a great stress free ownership ahead.

[steadfast]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Thank you for the suggestion sir, but, I'll prefer to do things myself with help of my FNG than visit the ASC. With the current situation and rush of vehicles at the ASC, I didn't want to keep the car with them ON HOLD till they could trace the issue.
.

Well, workshop holding the car is indeed a problem. I agree!
In my case, I have built a good rapport with few engineers at Hyundai ASC and they just zero down the issue quickly and then I go to my favourite FNG and get that part replaced, Which saves me time, effort and money.

Sometimes, trial and error proves costlier as in your case the required simple part of ₹2000 verus other high value parts replaced unless they were required (I believe you changed the parts which you have mentioned at beginning of thread). I would definitely like to be frugal in my approach.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

When manufacturers use customers as guinea pigs as test beds, that is what worries me more than anything else. Especially the initials batch owners of new launches.

Yeah I agree, this is a dangerous trend.
However manufacturers still honor warranties if they treat customers as guinea pigs, instead when customers treat their cars as test beds.

[bkc]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Current odometer is 82,200 kms and has been a delight to drive so far with no occurrence of the jerking since then.

Always, you somehow manage to find the solution. I was suspecting injector cleanliness. A simple switch is something, Hyundai should look into, and rewrite the code in ECU.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by steadfast

Sometimes, trial and error prove costlier as in your case the required simple part of ₹2000 versus other high-value parts replaced unless they were required (I believe you changed the parts which you have mentioned at beginning of thread).

Parts that were changed during this period:

1. Slave cylinder;
2. Clutch plate & pressure plate;
3. Neutral switch.

Part 1: Slave Cylinder: It had to be changed since it was leaking oil and letting air into the system causing poor pedal feel and clutch engage/disengage action. I chose to go with a local part that costs ₹1,000 versus the OEM one that was ₹3,358.

Part 2: Clutch Set: I was experiencing humming issue inside the cabin and was pretty irritating to drive with that. It anyway was going to get changed irrespective of this neutral switch issue. Chose an aftermarket clutch set (LuK) that costs ₹5,300 whereas the OEM would be slightly costlier at ₹6,400. The humming issue has been documented in my ownership review already (Post No. 346) and many other Creta owners are facing this too.

Part 3: Neutral Switch: OEM one was ₹1,958 whereas the aftermarket replacement part from a reputed manufacturer was ₹266.

Overall I don't think I've done any mistake going with aftermarket ones over the OEM Hyundai packed spares and what I've spent is much more less than expected had I gone with OEM parts.

Had I gone with all OEM parts it would have been ₹12,936 versus the aftermarket ones that came down to ₹7,786 saving me ₹5,150. I've not included the labour that Hyundai would have charged me all the while.

[steadfast]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Parts that were changed during this period:

1. Slave cylinder;
2. Clutch plate & pressure plate;
3. Neutral switch.

Part 1: Slave Cylinder: It had to be changed since it was leaking oil and letting air into the system causing poor pedal feel and clutch engage/disengage action. I chose to go with a local part that costs ₹1,000 versus the OEM one that was ₹3,358.

Part 2: Clutch Set: I was experiencing humming issue inside the cabin and was pretty irritating to drive with that. It anyway was going to get changed irrespective of this neutral switch issue. Chose an aftermarket clutch set (LuK) that costs ₹5,300 whereas the OEM would be slightly costlier at ₹6,400. The humming issue has been documented in my ownership review already (Post No. 346) and many other Creta owners are facing this too.

Part 3: Neutral Switch: OEM one was ₹1,958 whereas the aftermarket replacement part from a reputed manufacturer was ₹266.

Overall I don't think I've done any mistake going with aftermarket ones over the OEM Hyundai packed spares and what I've spent is much more less than expected had I gone with OEM parts.

Had I gone with all OEM parts it would have been ₹12,936 versus the aftermarket ones that came down to ₹7,786 saving me ₹5,150. I've not included the labour that Hyundai would have charged me all the while.

Well great job! I never said you should have bought parts from Hyundai. I also never buy parts from Hyundai ASC. I just get ASC's diagnosis on what is required and relevant problems and get parts replaced from my trusted FNG outside.

Happy to know your car is running perfect now! Wish you all the best for endless miles with your car.

[Highh5]

Must say, impeccable job of finding the root cause of this problem.
Going to FNG and doing your own trial and error was better rather than going to Hyundai Service Center.

Just thinking how much they would have charged on the name of fixing this issue without actually getting hold of this problem.

Thanks for all the hard work Sir! Will be helpful to lot of Creta owners.

[MunnabhaiMBBS]

Anurag, Any particular reason for not letting the authorised service centre have a look at the issue? I guess (in theory at least) $$$ / time could have been saved since ASC would have used spares from their own inventory for permutation and combination and would not have charged you if they didn't require the replacement.

[Ph03nix]

Really glad that you were able to get to the bottom of this and solve it. It proves that the onus of rootcausing problems is on us, given that almost all dealers/workshops are after your money.

I am pretty sure if you had visited the ASC, they would have started with the most expensive part (say injectors) stating bad fueling.

I had a bad experience with hyundai ASC, with my i10. I could hear metallic clanging from the suspension or thereabouts. I took the car to two different authorized workshops, both of them wanted to replace the entire steering assembly charging me close to 22K. I watched a bunch of youtube videos on suspension noises, and tugged and pulled at every suspension component, but there was no give.

I decided to live with it, and one day I noticed the clanging would stop whenever I used the brakes. I went back to the ASC pointing out the issue is related to the brakes. Fortunately the supervisor this time was a bright, young, energetic fellow, who probably wasn't brainwashed into fleecing customers for the incentives. He got the issue fixed by replacing a caliper pin for Rs. 200.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by MunnabhaiMBBS

Anurag, Any particular reason for not letting the authorised service centre have a look at the issue?

No particular reason. Have stopped visiting my ASC since almost an year now IIRC. Prefer to do things myself including regular servicing.

Edit:

Please have look at this post. Have explained the reason behind the parts that were replaced during the testing period.

[jetsetgo08]

This is a pro level diagnosis, I am pretty sure this level of diagnosis could put a good number of senior technicians to shame. Trivial issues like these will surely lead to expensive repairs and unnecessary replacements at an unethical or incompetent ASC.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Part 1: Slave Cylinder: It had to be changed since it was leaking oil and letting air into the system causing poor pedal feel and clutch engage/disengage action.

On the other hand I am surprised, components like these last for a good 1-2 lakh km's including driving in heavy traffic. And with your sort of maintenance they should last much longer.

[SCORPION]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

[*]Also as per the ‘Neutral Switch’ description, being an important link in the whole setup, why no Check Engine Light (CEL) was given or thought for?! Fuelling was going haywire, I assume, as the ECU was suspecting the gear to be in Neutral yet load and vehicle speed was being detected causing the vehicle to go bonkers.[/list]
Current odometer is 82,200 kms and has been a delight to drive so far with no occurrence of the jerking since then.

Thank you for logging and sharing every detail and trouble shooting done with the rest of us. Who would have though that a Neutral Position Sensor could lead to such an annoying and serious issue! This is something we need to keep in mind and also reminds us to think outside the box when faced with such issues.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by d3mon

it seems unacceptable for Hyundai not to monitor the health of this signal that's routed to the ECU. Most manufacturers would have thrown an "implausible signal" code if the signal value was behaving erratically as it was in your case.

This was an interesting remark when I went through this thread and was surprised by the amount of effort it took for Anurag to find out the issue. And I was thinking on similar lines too, as to what happens in the diagnostics. This led me to digging some info since my field of work also is automotive electronics. If Hyundai was following basic standards of automotive systems, it would have definitely had to report the health of these components. And I strongly believe Hyundai is not a small scale manufacturer to have not followed such practices. Critical systems in the car which include the ECM have to involve functional safety principles when they are built. Which means, if the neutral switch in this case has a failure, it should be detected, its impact known and sufficient counter measures are taken. Lets explore this implementation:

• Detection of the issue: It is a cakewalk for the ECM to detect a faulty switch since if it indicates a false neutral, that is when the vehicle moves proportionally wrt engine speed. If it does not indicate neutral when the gear is actually in neutral, this can be detected by other logic such as checking the clutch position switch and then the corresponding engine speed Vs vehicle speed.
• Understanding the impact: Here it is supposedly altering the engine map only. Hence, the faulty switch will cause a jerky power delivery.
• Implementing counter measures: Since this doesnt cause a major issue, that could be the reason a Check engine light was not triggered. But at least a DTC must have been reported, at least when the issue is easily detectable. No idea why this was not done.

Now there is another aspect to be looked at. Was a DTC triggered but not detected by the scan tool? I have the same Launch EasyDiag and it is evident that the tool does not read all the data a manufacturer specific tool can read though they charge for these protocols. For example, in my Innova, it does not read the VGT status, status of the differential pressure sensors etc while the Toyota tool does this.

Coming back to the topic of functional safety, I checked a few service manuals to understand different implementations, and I realized that we have a robust implementation in Maruti Suzuki cars with Smart Hybrid present. There is a DTC triggered when the neutral switch is faulty, the CEL is flashing as well. Now why this difference? If we take a look at the three points I mentioned above, in the Creta, it is not causing a major issue. But in the Smart hybrid system, the start stop mechanism is triggered when the driver moves the gear to neutral. If the switch malfunctions, then a wrong neutral will be detected, which will lead to chances of the engine being turned off even when it was not supposed to be, which is a catastrophic effect. Of course, there are other ways to prevent the engine from shutting down, but the manufacturer has to make sure that all the worst case scenarios are being taken care of.

Hence, in case of the Hyundai, we cant just write off the manufacturer as being careless or so. Perhaps, the risk assessment was concluded this way.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Thank you for the suggestion sir, but, I'll prefer to do things myself with help of my FNG than visit the ASC.

Maybe the advantage would have been that the dealers diagnostic system would have been more capable to detect this fault quicker, in addition to their familiarity with this issue since they would be dealing with the same issue in other cars. FNGs dont give you good success rate for such problems especially with car tech changing frequently and different manufacturers having their own ways to implement things. I would not talk about the time or money spent since that has already been discussed here.

[interc00led]

Originally Posted by audioholic

If Hyundai was following basic standards of automotive systems, it would have definitely had to report the health of these components. And I strongly believe Hyundai is not a small scale manufacturer to have not followed such practices. Critical systems in the car which include the ECM have to involve functional safety principles when they are built. Which means, if the neutral switch in this case has a failure, it should be detected, its impact known and sufficient counter measures are taken.

Hence, in case of the Hyundai, we cant just write off the manufacturer as being careless or so. Perhaps, the risk assessment was concluded this way.

Ok, let us leave this switch issue aside for a while. What do you have to say about the infamous brake failure with 1st gen creta (and probably seltos too) ?

According to me brake is a critical system, please tell me where did the safety principles go ?

It is not a question of whether a particular manufacturer is a small scale or a large scale manufacturer, it is about ethics. I hope you haven't forgotten the VAG emissions scandal, VAG group is also one of the largest automaker.


Link :1 (Hyundai Creta: Serious brake failure issue (must-read for all owners))

Link :2 (Kia Seltos : Official Review)

Now there is another aspect to be looked at. Was a DTC triggered but not detected by the scan tool? I have the same Launch EasyDiag and it is evident that the tool does not read all the data a manufacturer specific tool can read though they charge for these protocols. For example, in my Innova, it does not read the VGT status, status of the differential pressure sensors etc while the Toyota tool does this.

By this logic of yours Launch x431 Pro(not easydiag) is able to read certain DTCs and is simply skipping others ? I can understand if the scanner is not able to read all the data stream parameters but skipping through the DTCs is news to me, especially when it is able to establish communication with the ECU.

EDIT :
The scanner is able to read data related to neutral gear position but not the DTC ?!

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by interc00led

I can understand if the scanner is not able to read all the data stream parameters but skipping through the DTCs is news to me, especially when it is able to establish communication with the ECU.

It's not necessary that an after market scan tool can read all the DTCs if it's just able to communicate with the ECU.

Not sure if I missed, please check if there is DTC listed for Neutral switch malfunction in Creta service manual..if it does, I am sure the Hyundai OE tool would have detected it in less than 7 minutes

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by interc00led

Ok, let us leave this switch issue aside for a while. What do you have to say about the infamous brake failure with 1st gen creta (and probably seltos too) ?

I find this logic funny, if not worse. So if they designed poor brakes, then they design poor ECMs, and then poor engines, and poor car. It is not a high school project to design a car and make similar goof-ups all over the place. Yes it is widely known that the car has braking issues. If you read my post from a neutral perspective like how I explained the issue(I dont own a hyundai nor work for them to be their spokesperson of sorts) you would appreciate what I wanted to highlight - The fact that there are certain thoughts behind such decisions and it is not something that comes out of a single persons imagination. Exactly why I compared between why the Hyundai did not throw up a CEL, while a Maruti will do so.

When you speak about the VW scandal, it is a much bigger one and something that was pretty much planned within the company or its vendor. Do you know why? Because it had serious cost implications. When they did the same analysis as I explained, the decision makers assumed that having such a cheat mechanism would be of bigger benefit to them and overlooked the consequences. Here, it is a simple switch, for which implementing diagnostics and throwing a CEL would not hurt in anyway, or rather benefit the company whereas for VW it had saved them a lot of headache temporarily to make the engines perform well and also clear homologation. I will come to this later to disprove your theory and close the deal.

Originally Posted by interc00led

By this logic of yours Launch x431 Pro(not easydiag) is able to read certain DTCs and is simply skipping others ? I can understand if the scanner is not able to read all the data stream parameters but skipping through the DTCs is news to me, especially when it is able to establish communication with the ECU.

Sorry mate, reading DTC and reading datastream is a different thing. Again, you cant apply this logic saying if the scanner can establish communication then it would detect everything. End of the day, Launch is a third party manufacturer and is not officially the tool for Hyundai at least. To read datastream, PIDs are used to get the data that is needed. To read DTCs, they should have the right reference table to understand what this is about. Without the right table with the latest data, some of the DTCs will be missed. And I am not sure which version of X431 you use, but I have only come across the X431 that comes with its own tablet or device to operate with. Hence, there is no guarantee that Launch will be able to read all the codes that is detected though their developers try their best to keep the software updated as and when they can manage to get more information.

Now, for the final part, thanks to some friends whom we discussed this issue with and their respective sources, looks like there is a Hyundai specific DTC, along with their countermeasure:

Source here
So the DTC is generated without triggering CEL which means, the Hyundai official tool would have detected this occurrence

When I spoke about Maruti, I mentioned about DTC along with a countermeasure, unfortunately no CEL here, but the Smart Hybrid system will be disabled




All in all, the DIY part is appreciable, but in this case, it was not the easiest solution for sure. I hope I have given all the necessary details as to why.