Is there any real need for sulphur in Diesel ?

Gurkha · 11th June 2007, 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jomz

Excusez Moi Senoir... No Engine OiI wiff offset the low lubricity of Indian fuel unless you mix oil with fuel.. the Oil and fuel circuits are completely different in an Engine.. and special care is taken so that Oil and fuel never mix up.

Tell me guys.. How does the so called premium Oils reach the fuel pump which is the only item affected By diesel lubricity???

And eventhough the Suphur content is less nowadays Lubricity is easily taken care of by additives as rightly told by KPZEN

And again. We get 300 ppm Diesel, Europe Gets 50ppm diesel.. Does that mean that the fuel pumps over there are conking off because of lack of lubricity .NO.

Don' t tell itz because of the high grade oil they use because..again the oil doesn't come even near the pump.

IMO this thread is misleading..

jomz,

There are many internal memos from BOSCH, Denso and other manufacturers indicating severe wear of their pumps, out here, Toyota tells Innova owners that a Rs.90,000 pump will need replacement at 150,000km, I regularly see high mileage but well maintained Fords, Skodas smoking profusely even with a proper tune up, ULSD and LSD issues have been discussed all over the net to great details, specially on their pump life factor.

tsk1979 · 11th June 2007, 10:13

Thanks for your inputs Jomz? If engine oil has no effect, why is it that cars running on ULSD require API-CJ4 oil minimum? And cars running LSD require API-CG4 minimum.
I got the info from chevron lubricants page which clearly mentions that if you are running in ULSD you have to upgrade to API-CJ4

Jomz · 11th June 2007, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Thanks for your inputs Jomz? If engine oil has no effect, why is it that cars running on ULSD require API-CJ4 oil minimum? And cars running LSD require API-CG4 minimum.
I got the info from chevron lubricants page which clearly mentions that if you are running in ULSD you have to upgrade to API-CJ4

Well... ahem.. Hmm... that is a good question.. But how does that oil reach that pump? Can you give me that link... Let me check if there are any car models mentioned.. I can check whether they are Oil lubricated pumps..

OT how come I'm still a newbie.. I finally completed 50 posts..

tsk1979 · 11th June 2007, 10:50

I reckon that the reason is not the engine but EGR and emission control systems.
API-CJ4 has lower sulfur, Phosphorous and Ash limits. For example API-CI4 oil as no limit on sulfur content.
So not to mess up the emission control and recirculation systems, API-CJ4 is needed.
From Chevron site:
"You can use API-CH4 heavy duty oil for pre 2007 diesel engines but you must you API-CJ4 oil in newer engines while using ULSD".

Also when you read any technical brochures from manufacturers/oil company people it always says:
"Manufacturers do not anticipate any problems in older vehicles but in some cases changes may be required etc,."
The way I read it (Skeptic I am) ULSD will shorten your pump life, but nobody wants to clearly say so. Never engines are designed for ULSD, but older ones are not.
You cannot yank out detergents and lubricants from a fuel and then claim it will be as good as before.
As for additives to offset sulfur, most crdi engine guys say "Do not use Turbojet like fuels!"

Jomz · 11th June 2007, 11:34

I completely agree to what you said Now... and Yes CJ 4 has an effect on Emission....

And India has an avantage.. When they test the vehicles here.. they can se whatz coming in stock from the European market... and test it as per the next generation of fuels.. like the 50ppm sulphur content diesels..

And thanks for making me a bhpian...

kpzen · 11th June 2007, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Surprisingly in oil company Jargon, HSD stands for "High Speed Diesel", wonder what does that mean!?

Its always been "High Speed Diesel" until the strict emission norms came up which was related to the sulphur content...

Earlier there had been only two grades LDO & HSD

LDO - Light Diesel Oil
HSD - High Speed Diesel

LDO was basically for the low speed vehicles like tractors etc
HSD was for the Truck & other heavy vehicles..

Gurkha · 11th June 2007, 11:58

The older mechanical pumps on my OM616 turbo and W04D get oil from the engine, I don't know about the newer pumps, I am sure Jomz has way better idea.

kpzen · 11th June 2007, 12:03

I don't think in any new diesels the engine oil even comes near the pump..
Confirmed for Indica V2 & Hyundai CRDis....

Jomz · 11th June 2007, 13:45

Just checked WO4D is oil lubricated.. their Inline pump. and Indica if it came with an inline pump, it is Oil lubricated. Rotary pumps are not.

Gurkha · 11th June 2007, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jomz

Just checked WO4D is oil lubricated.. their Inline pump. and Indica if it came with an inline pump, it is Oil lubricated. Rotary pumps are not.

In that case, I would say that today's high tech rotary pumps depend more on the lubricity of diesel fuels and their additives than ever before. From what I read and hear from insiders in the industry, its the rotary valve failure that plauges today's pumps most, for an old inline mechanical, one had to literally put sand in the tank to destroy them.

Jomz · 11th June 2007, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

In that case, I would say that today's high tech rotary pumps depend more on the lubricity of diesel fuels and their additives than ever before. From what I read and hear from insiders in the industry, its the rotary valve failure that plauges today's pumps most, for an old inline mechanical, one had to literally put sand in the tank to destroy them.

and still there are guys who'd salvage those pumps.. even after you put sand....

tsk1979 · 11th June 2007, 15:59

Indica has a LUCAS TVS FP, and the Sumo has a Bosch. Any idea whether its rotary or inline?

Jomz · 11th June 2007, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Indica has a LUCAS TVS FP, and the Sumo has a Bosch. Any idea whether its rotary or inline?

Just look at it... One with 4 pipes on top (of the pump) in a line is an inline pump..
One with 4 pipes starting from the back (of the pump).. arranged in a circle is a rotary pump

Gurkha · 11th June 2007, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jomz

and still there are guys who'd salvage those pumps.. even after you put sand....

So true, I know a water soaked one that went for years without a hitch.

Jomz · 12th June 2007, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Indica has a LUCAS TVS FP, and the Sumo has a Bosch. Any idea whether its rotary or inline?

TSk . I believe that the Indica has a rotary pump.. The sumo had an inline but now itz a rotary pump. Think of the best part.. with a rotary pump you've better combustion than an inline.

11th June 2007, 10:13	#47
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,697 Thanked: 23,489 Times View My Garage	Thanks for your inputs Jomz? If engine oil has no effect, why is it that cars running on ULSD require API-CJ4 oil minimum? And cars running LSD require API-CG4 minimum. I got the info from chevron lubricants page which clearly mentions that if you are running in ULSD you have to upgrade to API-CJ4
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 10:50	#49
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,697 Thanked: 23,489 Times View My Garage	I reckon that the reason is not the engine but EGR and emission control systems. API-CJ4 has lower sulfur, Phosphorous and Ash limits. For example API-CI4 oil as no limit on sulfur content. So not to mess up the emission control and recirculation systems, API-CJ4 is needed. From Chevron site: "You can use API-CH4 heavy duty oil for pre 2007 diesel engines but you must you API-CJ4 oil in newer engines while using ULSD". Also when you read any technical brochures from manufacturers/oil company people it always says: "Manufacturers do not anticipate any problems in older vehicles but in some cases changes may be required etc,." The way I read it (Skeptic I am) ULSD will shorten your pump life, but nobody wants to clearly say so. Never engines are designed for ULSD, but older ones are not. You cannot yank out detergents and lubricants from a fuel and then claim it will be as good as before. As for additives to offset sulfur, most crdi engine guys say "Do not use Turbojet like fuels!"
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 11:34	#50
Jomz BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Detroit, MI,USA Posts: 834 Thanked: 335 Times	I completely agree to what you said Now... and Yes CJ 4 has an effect on Emission.... And India has an avantage.. When they test the vehicles here.. they can se whatz coming in stock from the European market... and test it as per the next generation of fuels.. like the 50ppm sulphur content diesels.. And thanks for making me a bhpian... Last edited by Jomz : 11th June 2007 at 11:37.
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 11:58	#52
Gurkha BANNED Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kalyani, West Bengal Posts: 444 Thanked: 10 Times	The older mechanical pumps on my OM616 turbo and W04D get oil from the engine, I don't know about the newer pumps, I am sure Jomz has way better idea.
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 12:03	#53
kpzen Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Faridabad Posts: 5,609 Thanked: 1,883 Times View My Garage	I don't think in any new diesels the engine oil even comes near the pump.. Confirmed for Indica V2 & Hyundai CRDis....
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 13:45	#54
Jomz BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Detroit, MI,USA Posts: 834 Thanked: 335 Times	Just checked WO4D is oil lubricated.. their Inline pump. and Indica if it came with an inline pump, it is Oil lubricated. Rotary pumps are not. Last edited by Jomz : 11th June 2007 at 13:53.
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 15:59	#57
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,697 Thanked: 23,489 Times View My Garage	Indica has a LUCAS TVS FP, and the Sumo has a Bosch. Any idea whether its rotary or inline?
	() Thanks