[ChristComesSoon]

With many industries trending towards a use-and-throw culture, even in the automobile industry - it is refreshing to see companies like Edison Motors try and stem the tide.

In the Consumer Electronics world, Louis Rossmann has been spearheading efforts with lawfare & advocacy - even speaking in US senate hearings [See Ref1].

Edison Motors [See Ref2] is a Canadian Truck company (Diesel Electric powertrain) that was inspired by the efforts of Louis Rossmann and prioritizes:

• Repairability,
• Longevity,
• Right-of-the-owner in all aspects of the truck (including its parts),
• Sustainability

They are just 8 to 10 members and are making waves in the industry even beating Tesla Semis in some performance aspects.

The CEO of Edison Motors, Chase Barber, is very vocal against planned obsolescence (See Ref3).

10 to 15 years for an automobile is just ludicrous - when it should actually be about 50 to 60 years of life, minimum (until metal fatigue). Sustainable engineering, easy-to-repair designing, quality parts, interchangeability etc. are some of the ways in which this can easily be achieved.

• Would be nice to know which companies in India prioritize these rights/ethos
• ideas on how such a culture can be built up in India and across the world
• How the consumer can know of products & services that promote such rights
• Ideas on how the consumer can promote such companies by their buying decisions & advocacy

------------------------------------

REFERENCES

• Ref1: Louis Rossmann Right to Repair testimony in Washington SB 5799 in 2020.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLIW7mQ8CI4

• Ref2: https://www.edisonmotors.ca
• Ref3: Right to Repair
  

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQfzjsUoAXo

[batish]

Probably I am old school but I have the same exact thought regarding vehicles longevity. 10-15 years is absolutely absurd.

I usually buy the top end variants as I keep the vehicles till the government and/or judiciary intervenes.

There is absolutely no sense as a consumer to get rid of perfectly fine vehicles. Always a wonderful, stress free feel to drive a vehicle kept in a mint condition.

I'm all in for DIY repairabililty. I wish the government mandates to manufacturers to release service manuals for their products. Only then competition in this industry would increase which I guess would open their eyes.

I can pretty much service my vehicle but due to warranty statutes I cannot. So after few months I have to waste my whole day in getting something done which takes half an hour.

I wish there is a movement like this in India.
Would make vehicle owning peaceful.

TBH, all the vehicles produced today can easily last 20 years.

Coming to your questions:

a) Till date haven't seen any company which priortises these ethos. We have german companies here which charge pretty hefty sum for just unlocking Apple Carplay on infotainment.

b) Seems pretty difficult considering no manufacturer would like to let go their share of profits.

c) I guess first we need manufacturers to come up in this aspect. Just like consumers today are aware about safety. They would be aware about it too. Will take some time.

[ChristComesSoon]

Originally Posted by ChristComesSoon

With many industries trending towards a use-and-throw culture, even in the automobile industry - it is refreshing to see companies like Edison Motors try and stem the tide.

This is a recent must-watch, engaging discussion between Louis and Chase.

https://youtu.be/r-PUFtWb8pY?si=gDdtOkfXiwwJSkFj

[Chhanda Das]

Originally Posted by ChristComesSoon

10 to 15 years for an automobile is just ludicrous

• Would be nice to know which companies in India prioritize these rights/ethos
• ideas on how such a culture can be built up in India and across the world
• How the consumer can know of products & services that promote such rights
• Ideas on how the consumer can promote such companies by their buying decisions & advocacy

Originally Posted by batish

Probably I am old school but I have the same exact thought regarding vehicles longevity. 10-15 years is absolutely absurd.
There is absolutely no sense as a consumer to get rid of perfectly fine vehicles.
I'm all in for DIY repairabililty. I wish the government mandates to manufacturers to release service manuals for their products.

I completely agree. One of the main reasons why I bought my 2017 Hyundai Creta 1.6 petrol automatic was because I got access to its service manuals before buying the car. Annual services cost us around INR 1500-1800 on average obviously through the DIY route. More details in the link below :-

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-...ip-review.html (5+ years with my Hyundai Creta | Ownership Review)

But guess what, we cannot access those service manuals from India without using a powerful virtual private network (VPN) system. These service manuals are available in European servers in countries where the Creta isn't even sold just because their laws make it mandatory for car manufacturers to share these service manuals with interested customers, independent repair workshops, DIYers, etc.

I miss the old days when it was a common sight to see people working on their cars at home often on Sundays. People used to take pride in being able to service their cars themselves. Today it is usually frowned upon. Those days the user manuals would often be like a miniature service manual in itself usually with details like engine valve adjustment procedure guides, etc but alas no more. With the passage of time, more and more people chose the easier life and left their vehicles in the hands of authorized workshops for servicing them. Once the car manufacturers realized this, it all went downhill from there. Today, authorized workshops are nothing more than replacement centres instead of what they were supposed to be - repair centres. And it is not surprising that approximately 60-80 % of a car dealership's income is from its service centres and not from selling cars.

I am absolutely appalled by the judiciary which seemingly endorsed and legalized the harebrained idea of the government to scrap vehicles based on their age alone. What were they even thinking ?

In this regard, I have a huge amount of respect for people/organisations/teams/etc like Louis Rossman of the Rossman Repair Group, NorthridgeFix, Samcrac, Scotty Kilmer, etc to name a few who have been promoting DIY amongst the masses. Here in India, the Youtube channels of Abhijit from a2z car service (mainly for Hyundai cars), Technical Gyan, Al Ansari Automobile, Mukesh Chandra Gond, etc seem to be moving in the right direction.

But haters will point to the majority of JustRolledIn videos on YouTube to show why DIY is bad almost as if to imply that authorized workshops are flawless

Personally, I feel that although it is good to have authorized workshops and aftermarket workshops as a backup plan, DIY should be the first choice and a skill passed down the generations. I seem to recall hearing/reading somewhere that one could rent car tools by the hour/minute somewhere in Canada. That could be an option in India too for a beginner DIYer if the prices are reasonable. And just like we have classes/studios/workshops/etc for Yoga, martial arts, musical instruments, dance, etc, maybe similar classes are the need of the hour in the realm of DIY related to consumer electronics, vehicles, etc too. One can only dream ...

[GForceEnjoyer]

I value longevity the most. This is because of the length of time for which we like to keep our cars. Other than that, everyday practicality is also high on the list, because that's what keeps you happy even after decades of ownership! Any ideal car should strike a good balance here.

I also fully support right to repair. We managed to turn a 40k+ rupee AC repair estimate into a 12k one by taking our business to someone who could repair instead of blindly replace!

While I don't have an opinion on DIY service versus authorised dealerships (you do you!), the biggest issue in my eyes is not our personal preferences. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the eyes of the law, a perfectly compliant vehicle becomes a health hazard overnight after turning 15 years old.

It's only getting worse. Now, the law says that a diesel car manufactured as recently as March 2020 suddenly starts bellowing smoke into the air, only during the winter months and in only one city!

Buying and using one car for decades is far better than throwing away perfectly good cars that are being made artificially unusable. The less said about ethanol blending the better!

The reason I'm highlighting this is because apart from owners who fight tooth and nail to keep their cars for a long time, those unwilling or unable to make that effort of re registration are forced to buy a new car. The choice is unfortunately already made for them by default!

[GTO]

I don't agree with the poll's premise of "features versus reliability". Lexus manages both just well. So do BMW, and a few other brands. My 530d was as modern as cars come at the time of its launch and guess what, 11-years up and she's still running like a dream. On the other hand, my relatively basic Mahindra Thar has had 5 niggles in 1 year & 5000 km of ownership. It's all down to the build, supply chains, OEM & vendor QC etc. The Indica was an extremely simple car mechanically but known for its poor reliability. On the other hand, I know of a few W221 & W222 S-Class owners who are happily using their cars in the 5th - 10th year of ownership, with an average of 1 issue / year (which really is acceptable for that kind of car).

DIY and all is awesome and I respect members who DIY, but I personally just don't have the time for the same. As long as a car works reliably for 10ish years and has enough after-market support, that's good enough for me.

[MadinMumbai]

Personally, this is an older person's perspective that can be challenged by enthusiasts, I am of the opinion that cars have reached a level of sophistication that make differences between segments mostly cosmetic. This is especially so in our bumper to bumper, 10-15 kms a day usage pattern and mostly city driving existence. Within segments, most cars are more than adequate in terms of basic comforts (AC, music system... etc) and each category is almost identical in the offerings.

Coveted features, or new additions, don't necessarily drive a purchase decision for a person like me. In fact too much technology, or too many features, might be an active turn off. The learning curve and the limited returns at the end of the energy expended to learn the workings of new gizmos have turned me off some of the offerings from the Korean Twins in the past. In fact, when I see a variant list that goes into multiple pages my mind shuts off. I much prefer the staid stable of Honda or Toyota. The tech offered is often older but whatever is onboard works as intended.

The big differences - safety and ride/handling comfort largely fall outside the purview of 'features- bells and whistles' and generally have a longer footprint (a car with better safety, better suspension will last longer) and therefore fall into a different category of evaluation anyway.

[anjan_c2007]

JLongevity is always preferred by me. The oldest car with me is 68 plus years old. At this moment I can very well instantly crank it up for a 100+100 kms drive. It has done quite many such day long drives flawlessly. And the youngest one, a Scorpio is from 2009, just getting ready for its 15 year fitness. I am also using my better half's 2010 Tata Nano sometimes as a daily driver for the superb city commuter duties it offers. Among the two wheelers with me the oldest is a 1963 Lambretta while the youngest is my 2003 Activa (it has a dedicated thread here entitled "My Valentine ......") that came home on 14.02.2003. It still does its duties as and when it's services are sought. And my RX 100 is 33 plus years old but still rocks and can give jitters to any new 100-125 cc bike. I still do much of the DIY all by myself. Like, my 1983 TVS 50 that was not in use for the last few years was fully brought back to life by me during January- March 2022 and certified as fit (and gleaming) by the RTO till 2027.

But my sympathies for the many of the owners of the Ford Escorts, Ikons, Peugeot 309/GLD, Daewoo Matiz, Cielo, Opel Astra, Corsa, Fiat Uno, Palio, Chevrolet Beat, Avon and Optra and other such cars that have not lasted for more than 15 to 20 years. Many owners would have bought these to last for many decades with them. But that was not to be as the manufacturers sensed fishy balance sheets and closed shop suddenly and shockingly. The Cielo came in 1996 but even by its 15th year (2011), a majority of these disappeared from the streets and the spares and service were crippled.

Hence its also "owner proposes, manufacturer disposes." For Delhi and NCR its "owner proposes, judiciary/ government disposes."

Many of the Indian assembled Mercedes Benz W124's, that came with the best features of the times around 1996 have survived though since two and a half decades and are still going strong.

[shankar.balan]

Je Garde Ma Vieille Auto
Je Suis Ecolo
This is a sticker which I saw on eBay.
And I love the philosophy.
Basically means ‘preserve my old car and hence I’m ‘eco-friendly’.
Indeed I do wholeheartedly support the right to repair and re-use and preserve. I love my older vehicles and do not want to fall victim to any Government dictated strictures which are ill thought through.

[ChristComesSoon]

Great point of view, and it was a pleasure reading through your other post on ownership review. I'll have to reserve time to go through all of it...especially the various branch-off links...

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

...I got access to its service manuals before buying the car.

I would like to know the size of the Service Manual that you have been able to get. Is it a PDF? How many pages? Filesize?

I came across this website 'https://www.hcrmangs.com' which has a section, "Hyundai Creta GS 2014-2024 Service Manual". This seems to have all the details? Or is it only a subset of what is in the Service Manual?

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

I am absolutely appalled by the judiciary which seemingly endorsed and legalized the harebrained idea of the government to scrap vehicles based on their age alone. What were they even thinking ?

Indeed. Imagine, if on the other hand, the mandate was for manufacturers to ensure that cars are to be maintainable for a 100 years. What would that bring in terms of design decisions, logistics, quality of spare parts, interoperability, etc.

Originally Posted by Chhanda Das

In this regard, I have a huge amount of respect for people/organisations/teams/etc like Louis Rossman of the Rossman Repair Group, NorthridgeFix, Samcrac, Scotty Kilmer, etc to name a few who have been promoting DIY amongst the masses. Here in India, the Youtube channels of Abhijit from a2z car service (mainly for Hyundai cars), Technical Gyan, Al Ansari Automobile, Mukesh Chandra Gond, etc seem to be moving in the right direction.

Thanks for the names & references. Would be interesting to check out those I do not know of. You may be interested in this, if not already aware: @TheCarCareNut

[hrk997]

It seems i am one of only 5 people who voted for features.

Hear me out, the duration for which a car is held depends upon the car itself. Luxury cars and full fledged SUVs can be held longer. This preference really comes down to how much of your income you consider disposable. We had our creta for 6 years and 1.25L km. It was the beater car at home and had become considerably worn down. The engine had turned completely different and all parts were failing. We bought it at 11.5 and sold at 6.5. The car served it's purpose excellently. I world rather switch at that mark than hold onto some aging toyota.

It comes down to how many features can be considered essential. Wirless android auto and 360 sensors have become essential to me. These are features only recently introduced in budget segments. To rephrase the poll, it's not features v longevity, it is Hyundai v toyota. Toyota cannot skimp on essential features and interiors just because it's cars last a decade. Likewise, Hyundai cannot sell sub standard vehicles because Indians want it more. Actually, this poll shows that team bhp isn't reflective of the sentiments of the general population.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by hrk997

Actually, this poll shows that team bhp isn't reflective of the sentiments of the general population.

This is true. Teambhp is composed of members who fall into probably the top 0.0001% of the car buying / owning consumers. We certainly are not, by any means representative of the vast majority of those buying cars in today’s rapidly growing, upwardly-mobile India.

[ChristComesSoon]

Originally Posted by hrk997

It seems i am one of only 5 people who voted for features.

Hear me out, the duration for which a car is held depends upon the car itself. Luxury cars and full fledged SUVs can be held longer. This preference really comes down to how much of your income you consider disposable. We had our creta for 6 years and 1.25L km. It was the beater car at home and had become considerably worn down. The engine had turned completely different and all parts were failing. We bought it at 11.5 and sold at 6.5. The car served it's purpose excellently. I world rather switch at that mark than hold onto some aging toyota.

These cars aren't engineered for longevity beyond their design specifications. Numerous instances exist where manufacturers intentionally design certain components to fail immediately after the warranty period expires. This practice clearly reflects a business model. If parts were engineered to endure longer, universally interchangeable across car models, upgradeable, and crafted from durable materials rather than cheap plastic, they would undoubtedly have a longer lifespan.

Moreover, it should be left to the consumer, the rightful owner post-sale, to decide whether they wish to keep the car, instead of legislating it out of the realm of possibility.

The smartphone world serves as another fitting analogy. Technically, with modular parts, a plethora of reusability and upgradability becomes feasible, provided they are designed accordingly.

Originally Posted by hrk997

It comes down to how many features can be considered essential. Wirless android auto and 360 sensors have become essential to me. These are features only recently introduced in budget segments. To rephrase the poll, it's not features v longevity, it is Hyundai v toyota. Toyota cannot skimp on essential features and interiors just because it's cars last a decade. Likewise, Hyundai cannot sell sub standard vehicles because Indians want it more. Actually, this poll shows that team bhp isn't reflective of the sentiments of the general population.

It doesn't have to be the case that certain features render the entire car disposable. Instead, it can be engineered to be modular in design. That is the whole premise of this thread. Repairability & the Right-to-repair.

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

In fact too much technology, or too many features, might be an active turn off.

Absolutely. At least five automakers—Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, and Tesla—are rolling out a subscription model for certain options, meaning consumers would pay monthly or annual fees to use features such as active driving assistance or voice recognition, even if those features are already built into the car.
BMW discontinuing heated seat subscription plan (https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/09/0...scription.html)
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars...r-a6575794430/

[Chhanda Das]

Originally Posted by ChristComesSoon

I would like to know the size of the Service Manual that you have been able to get. Is it a PDF? How many pages? Filesize?

I came across this website 'https://www.hcrmangs.com' which has a section, "Hyundai Creta GS 2014-2024 Service Manual". This seems to have all the details? Or is it only a subset of what is in the Service Manual?

You may be interested in this, if not already aware: @TheCarCareNut

Please accept my apologies for replying so late. Sadly, I got stuck with some emergency work.

Initially, I was under the impression that the contents of the "hcrmangs" website was the entirety of my Creta's service manual but later I found that there is a lot more on Hyundai's Global Service Way (GSW) website including pages upon pages of common stuff shared with their other cars like the Verna, i20, etc. And there are whole dedicated sections about critical components like brakes, fail safes, part numbers, etc. There are even sections on how to tune the ECU software safely. But alas, we have to pay for the access by the hours/days/weeks/months. Sadly, none of it is in PDF form. So I had to enlist the help of my son who may or may not have () managed to download all the sections relevant to my car in the form of an offline website after considerable effort. The content on the GSW website about my car could easily run for thousands of pages and I have no idea about the file sizes there.

I just remembered that we can also check out the "Oriparts" website for the part numbers for various cars. Fun fact : Oriparts seems to be the backend for Boodmo

[TheStoryweaver]

We are at the point where the laws need amendments. The bs6 car is very different now from the bs2/3 car sold some years ago. I for one know the difference between a bs4 and bs6 diesel easily. The former emits a nauseous smell when idling at red lights or driving around you. Whereas with the latter i haven’t have had such instances. Similar for petrol vehicles it’s very much refined with the bs6 and less nauseous.
The law needs to be amended and a few years more extension needs to be given for new gen car owners. 20 years minimum for petrol cars and on similar line for diesel ones.
For one, i do feel ICE cars have matured in terms of mechanical advancements. Nowadays additions are more software based than hardware.
A new car shall have more software advancements mechanical ones in future from this point. Long period of ownership should be motivated with the new gen cars.