Fuel weight sensors to prevent cheating

arunkumar_rec · 17th December 2007, 17:09

I feel if we have a weight sensor in the petrol tank which senses the weight of the petrol and converts that into litres of petrol, then we can easily come to know what amount of petrol is being dispensed into your tank by the dispensing unit in the petrol bunks. This will prevent us from the cheating petrol bunk wallas. Do we have any product like this in the market?

Alternately, the car weight should be calculated before and after filling the petrol. We can arrive at the fuel filled finding the difference in weight(we need to convert it to litres).

I forgot how to convert the weight into litres. Experts, please throw some light onto this.

Arun

gbpscars · 17th December 2007, 17:31

@arun: a small note from the physics that i learnt at college ...

it is assumed that only water can be 1 kg to 1 liter.

for other liquids, the density of the liquid also will have to be factored in.

they may not have much difference but everything goes haywire if you are talking about volatile liquids,... in our case, automotive fuel!!

it is for this reason a litre to kg or vice-versa is not put into practical use where a small difference can vary the drama between war and peace

ram_hyundai · 17th December 2007, 17:39

why not an orifice meter in the car,just like the water meters we got to measure the water collected by a consumer from the muncipality or corporation.this would solve the problem.if any one manufacturer comes out with such a solution that can be enough reason for the people going for it even if there is some other odd difference between the competition cars regarding features.
ram

gbpscars · 17th December 2007, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ram_hyundai

why not an orifice meter in the car,just like the water meters we got to measure the water collected by a consumer from the muncipality or corporation.this would solve the problem.if any one manufacturer comes out with such a solution that can be enough reason for the people going for it even if there is some other odd difference between the competition cars regarding features.
ram

wonderful and simple indeed. i have always had this in mind even when i had a gas guzzling shogun years ago.

sbasak · 17th December 2007, 17:55

Have you ever thought why none of the cars actually shows how many liters of fuel left on tank on the dashboard?

Calculating exact amount of fuel left on the tank is not very easy, especially when the tank is unsymmetrical, and consider slope etc.

SilverStreak · 17th December 2007, 18:03

calculating volume from weight have more problems!!
there may be variations in weight with the speed of the car!

and regarding the dashboard meter, In my friend's fusion there is an indicator showing the distance he can cover with the fuel left

anupmathur · 17th December 2007, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbasak

Have you ever thought why none of the cars actually shows how many liters of fuel left on tank on the dashboard?

Calculating exact amount of fuel left on the tank is not very easy, especially when the tank is unsymmetrical, and consider slope etc.

That is very true.
In fact, why calculate by weight - the world has flow-meters. However, all such techniques will fail to resolve the issue. It will immediately happen that all bunks will only go by their meter and not entertain readings of any other meter! Take it or leave it.

amohit · 17th December 2007, 20:04

Petrol has a sg(specific gravity) of approx 0.75 & hence weighs 750gms per lt(source: Mass, Weight, Density or Specific Gravity of Liquids) . ....and it varies with the current atmospheric temprature! so weight based sensors are of no gud use,

but yes, i feel if some company can come up with a flow based portable meter, that we can fit in between fuel nozzle and the fuel tank, that will be an instant hit!
take it or no take it, this device will certainly give us an idea which bunks to blacklist!

Regards,

kiranpashtakar · 17th December 2007, 20:09

@anup ... I agree with you, i recollect a incident when a auto chap was filling petrol in the 1.5L pepsi bottle. When the owner came out and stopped this and was trying to explain to the others that these guys are drunk are drunk and they always create problems..

Me being me stepped out and reasoned with the owner since this guys was not drunk he should fill up,,, after the usual ganging up by the bunk guys and trying to act tough and lot of arguing , I had my way when the public around me was supportive.

Reluctantly they continued to fill up which showed that the 1.5 l did not fill up the bottle till the expected mark, the counter argument from the staff was the petrol had evaporated as we spoke.

May be soo.. but it did not convince me I stopped visiting that bunk

Bu the general attitude at the bunk is take or leave it

Shan2nu · 17th December 2007, 21:10

It's not possible for the simple reason that the density of fuel (or any other liquid) varies with increase or decrease in temperature.

So, if you fill 10 ltrs of fuel early in the morning and then fill another 10ltrs at mid afternoon, you maynot get the exact same weight (even though both fills are exactly 10ltrs).

Shan2nu

anupmathur · 17th December 2007, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by amohit

take it or no take it, this device will certainly give us an idea which bunks to blacklist!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiranpashtakar

But the general attitude at the bunk is take or leave it

The BEST that will be accomplished is that YOU would know which bunks to avoid.

DocG · 17th December 2007, 22:55

still some sort of flow meter, or device of that sort will allow the general public to blacklist certain pumps...and if that occurs effectively, then the pump will have no choice but to buck up and provide the quality expected due to the drop in business...all it takes is the initiative and the right product to help measure the fuel

Alternately samples could be obtained from the various pumps, and checked for impurities or adulteration...surely the pumps will object, but that's never stopped people from trying

rohan_fonseca · 18th December 2007, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

It's not possible for the simple reason that the density of fuel (or any other liquid) varies with increase or decrease in temperature.

So, if you fill 10 ltrs of fuel early in the morning and then fill another 10ltrs at mid afternoon, you maynot get the exact same weight (even though both fills are exactly 10ltrs).

Shan2nu

Does that mean that we can get more fuel in cooler temperatures?

Shan2nu · 18th December 2007, 01:51

Quote:

Does that mean that we can get more fuel in cooler temperatures?

Yes. Early in the morning is prob the best time to fill gas.

Shan2nu

DirtyDan · 18th December 2007, 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohan_fonseca

Does that mean that we can get more fuel in cooler temperatures?

I do not know how sophisticated Indian fuel pumps are. In North America most pumps are computerized. The pumps can read plastic credit/debit cards, call your bank and access your account to automatically pay for fuel with no cash. These same pumps have sensors to measure fuel volume. Usually each state sets a temperature at which fuel is to be measured to ascertain what is a liter etc., and this way a standard is set. The pumps are sophisticated enough to be calibrated for this. That is, if the state standard is 15 degrees then the pumps will dispense the amount of fuel that is equal to a liter at 15 degrees regardless of what the underground bunker temperature is. They can compensate. These pumps are checked by the state governments for volume, octane and fuel quality. The accuracy and degree of enforcement of the checks varies from state to state. The question is, how sophisticated are Indian pumps?

17th December 2007, 17:09	#1
arunkumar_rec BHPian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 106 Thanked: Once	Fuel weight sensors to prevent cheating I feel if we have a weight sensor in the petrol tank which senses the weight of the petrol and converts that into litres of petrol, then we can easily come to know what amount of petrol is being dispensed into your tank by the dispensing unit in the petrol bunks. This will prevent us from the cheating petrol bunk wallas. Do we have any product like this in the market? Alternately, the car weight should be calculated before and after filling the petrol. We can arrive at the fuel filled finding the difference in weight(we need to convert it to litres). I forgot how to convert the weight into litres. Experts, please throw some light onto this. Arun
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 17:31	#2
gbpscars BHPian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Navi Mumbai Posts: 402 Thanked: 5 Times	@arun: a small note from the physics that i learnt at college ... it is assumed that only water can be 1 kg to 1 liter. for other liquids, the density of the liquid also will have to be factored in. they may not have much difference but everything goes haywire if you are talking about volatile liquids,... in our case, automotive fuel!! it is for this reason a litre to kg or vice-versa is not put into practical use where a small difference can vary the drama between war and peace Last edited by gbpscars : 17th December 2007 at 17:34.
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 17:39	#3
ram_hyundai Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calicut ,trisur Posts: 2,020 Thanked: 53 Times View My Garage	why not an orifice meter in the car,just like the water meters we got to measure the water collected by a consumer from the muncipality or corporation.this would solve the problem.if any one manufacturer comes out with such a solution that can be enough reason for the people going for it even if there is some other odd difference between the competition cars regarding features. ram
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 17:55	#5
sbasak BHPian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CCU-LTN Posts: 608 Thanked: 14 Times	Have you ever thought why none of the cars actually shows how many liters of fuel left on tank on the dashboard? Calculating exact amount of fuel left on the tank is not very easy, especially when the tank is unsymmetrical, and consider slope etc.
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 18:03	#6
SilverStreak Newbie Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Trivandrum\Cochin\Kottakkal Posts: 2 Thanked: 0 Times	calculating volume from weight have more problems!! there may be variations in weight with the speed of the car! and regarding the dashboard meter, In my friend's fusion there is an indicator showing the distance he can cover with the fuel left
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 20:04	#8
amohit BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 451 Thanked: 52 Times	Petrol has a sg(specific gravity) of approx 0.75 & hence weighs 750gms per lt(source: Mass, Weight, Density or Specific Gravity of Liquids) . ....and it varies with the current atmospheric temprature! so weight based sensors are of no gud use, but yes, i feel if some company can come up with a flow based portable meter, that we can fit in between fuel nozzle and the fuel tank, that will be an instant hit! take it or no take it, this device will certainly give us an idea which bunks to blacklist! Regards,
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 20:09	#9
kiranpashtakar BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore/Hyderabad Posts: 257 Thanked: 7 Times	@anup ... I agree with you, i recollect a incident when a auto chap was filling petrol in the 1.5L pepsi bottle. When the owner came out and stopped this and was trying to explain to the others that these guys are drunk are drunk and they always create problems.. Me being me stepped out and reasoned with the owner since this guys was not drunk he should fill up,,, after the usual ganging up by the bunk guys and trying to act tough and lot of arguing , I had my way when the public around me was supportive. Reluctantly they continued to fill up which showed that the 1.5 l did not fill up the bottle till the expected mark, the counter argument from the staff was the petrol had evaporated as we spoke. May be soo.. but it did not convince me I stopped visiting that bunk Bu the general attitude at the bunk is take or leave it
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 21:10	#10
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 125 Times View My Garage	It's not possible for the simple reason that the density of fuel (or any other liquid) varies with increase or decrease in temperature. So, if you fill 10 ltrs of fuel early in the morning and then fill another 10ltrs at mid afternoon, you maynot get the exact same weight (even though both fills are exactly 10ltrs). Shan2nu
	() Thanks

17th December 2007, 22:55	#12
DocG BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Mumbai - Singapore - Cali - Sydney - S.Korea Posts: 870 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	still some sort of flow meter, or device of that sort will allow the general public to blacklist certain pumps...and if that occurs effectively, then the pump will have no choice but to buck up and provide the quality expected due to the drop in business...all it takes is the initiative and the right product to help measure the fuel Alternately samples could be obtained from the various pumps, and checked for impurities or adulteration...surely the pumps will object, but that's never stopped people from trying
	() Thanks