Pumpe-Duse diesel technology as against better known CRDi

mail4ajo · 9th January 2008, 19:33

I don't understand why Skoda is giving the Pumpe-Duse diesel technology to India when VW itself is moving away from it to Common Rail. I read a report on it recently.

Are they dumping the technology on us? Or maybe its cost considerations.

Pumpe-Duse tech has some advantages over common rail, one of which is better adaptivity to bad fuel which is a must in India. Someone needs to do a neck to neck study with the DDiS. I also learned that Pumpe-Duse engines produces better torque than its common rail counterpart. Any info?

BUSA · 9th January 2008, 19:39

I dont think Pump Duese engine produces better power or torque then their CRDi counter parts. Case in point is the 2.0L engine of the Sonata and Elantra against the 1.9L of the Octy, the Hyundai engine produces more power.

They are giving us the PD tech since hardly any buyer is aware of it, but once Euro 4 norms come in, then Skoda will be getting the CRDi.

jkdas · 9th January 2008, 19:44

The 1.9L in Skoda and the non-tuned DDiS (or petefied) 1.3 produces the same power; bhp & torque.

Akshay1234 · 9th January 2008, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkdas

The 1.9L in Skoda and the non-tuned DDiS (or petefied) 1.3 produces the same power; bhp & torque.

but the 1.9l in the skoda is ancient tech. its not even a crdi or a pd.

jaibir · 9th January 2008, 19:49

a dealer told me they have the PD technology on the Laura and how the Fabia engine has the same tech. Was using it as a selling point for the Fabia

jkdas · 9th January 2008, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by akshay1234

but the 1.9l in the skoda is ancient tech. its not even a crdi or a pd.

oh yah! Missed that point

What about Fiesta's and Dicor's?

ajmat · 9th January 2008, 19:57

The PD engine is durable and has more progressive torque. it may not win in terms of outright power. another factor is longivity of the engine and tolerant of abuse

The CRD gives more power but the power band is nothing giving an all or nothing power delivery. Check out the test reports of the Passat to understand this.

jerish666 · 9th January 2008, 20:12

What exactly is the advantage of PD engines?

Akshay1234 · 9th January 2008, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkdas

oh yah! Missed that point

What about Fiesta's and Dicor's?

fiestas and dicors have crdi tech.

mail4ajo · 9th January 2008, 21:09

I am reading a Tech report on Pumpe-Duse engines. I can not disclose more information due to certain confidentiality policies. Read comments below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUSA

I dont think Pump Duese engine produces better power or torque then their CRDi counter parts.

This is not true. PD engines operates on much higher pressures than CRDi. Thats helps finer atomisation. The report says that the engines can extract 40% thermal energy from the fuel. FE and emmissions are also reduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmat

The PD engine is durable and has more progressive torque. it may not win in terms of outright power. another factor is longivity of the engine and tolerant of abuse

This is true. VW engines are known for the reliability. Each injector has its own low pressure pump. Since there are no common pressure pumps, leakages can be avoided. Since PD engines operates on much higher pressures above 25000 PSI, durability is the key element. 25000 PSI translates to 1700 bar which is above the 1400 bar of the DDiS. (Please correct if there is any mistake in calculation)

androdev · 9th January 2008, 22:32

PD is predominantly mechanical than electronic. as we all know electronic tech is replacing mechanical tech in most areas. now one must keep in mind that CRDI is a generic name. the maturity of electronics used determines the quality of the engine and not just the fact that it uses a common rail and single pump.

PD can not only match the current state of the art CRDI but can compete respectably with it for next one generation CRDI i would guess. PD has to be discontinued because being a mechanical thingy, its exp to manufacture (imagine number of pumps needed for v12!), further refinement is harder to obtain, and it is bad with noise and emissions.

CRDI is a marketing name which can mean any generation and any manufacturer. OTH PD means just one thing.

the sun is setting in the PD world, but its not noon in the CRDI world

mail4ajo · 9th January 2008, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by androdev

the sun is setting in the PD world, but its not noon in the CRDI world

VW was quoted as totally abandoning the PD tech since they are unable to match the emission norms in major nations.

The VW Toureg was PD at one time. We all know its TDi now.

burnt. · 9th January 2008, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by androdev

PD can not only match the current state of the art CRDI but can compete respectably with it for next one generation CRDI i would guess. PD has to be discontinued because being a mechanical thingy, its exp to manufacture (imagine number of pumps needed for v12!), further refinement is harder to obtain, and it is bad with noise and emissions.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I remember reading somewhere that Volkswagen is switching over to crdi because of the inability to PD engines to match up to the next gen crdi engines.

BUSA · 9th January 2008, 23:02

You mean to say the engine in the Octy 1.9TDi is better then the Lolla?

burnt. · 9th January 2008, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUSA

You mean to say the engine in the Octy 1.9TDi is better then the Lolla?

I dint know that the Octy 1.9 TDi is a next gen crdi.

9th January 2008, 19:33	#1
mail4ajo Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,959 Thanked: 337 Times View My Garage	Pumpe-Duse diesel technology as against better known CRDi I don't understand why Skoda is giving the Pumpe-Duse diesel technology to India when VW itself is moving away from it to Common Rail. I read a report on it recently. Are they dumping the technology on us? Or maybe its cost considerations. Pumpe-Duse tech has some advantages over common rail, one of which is better adaptivity to bad fuel which is a must in India. Someone needs to do a neck to neck study with the DDiS. I also learned that Pumpe-Duse engines produces better torque than its common rail counterpart. Any info? Last edited by mail4ajo : 9th January 2008 at 19:34.
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 19:39	#2
BUSA Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,127 Thanked: 23 Times View My Garage	I dont think Pump Duese engine produces better power or torque then their CRDi counter parts. Case in point is the 2.0L engine of the Sonata and Elantra against the 1.9L of the Octy, the Hyundai engine produces more power. They are giving us the PD tech since hardly any buyer is aware of it, but once Euro 4 norms come in, then Skoda will be getting the CRDi.
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 19:44	#3
jkdas Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Thiruvananthapu Posts: 9,687 Thanked: 1,497 Times View My Garage	The 1.9L in Skoda and the non-tuned DDiS (or petefied) 1.3 produces the same power; bhp & torque.
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 19:49	#5
jaibir BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 317 Thanked: 50 Times	a dealer told me they have the PD technology on the Laura and how the Fabia engine has the same tech. Was using it as a selling point for the Fabia
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 19:57	#7
ajmat Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 15,188 Thanked: 31,132 Times View My Garage	The PD engine is durable and has more progressive torque. it may not win in terms of outright power. another factor is longivity of the engine and tolerant of abuse The CRD gives more power but the power band is nothing giving an all or nothing power delivery. Check out the test reports of the Passat to understand this.
	(1) Thanks

9th January 2008, 20:12	#8
jerish666 BHPian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Trivandrum,Kochi,Trissur Posts: 756 Thanked: 2 Times	What exactly is the advantage of PD engines?
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 22:32	#11
androdev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: bangalore Posts: 3,255 Thanked: 25,285 Times	PD is predominantly mechanical than electronic. as we all know electronic tech is replacing mechanical tech in most areas. now one must keep in mind that CRDI is a generic name. the maturity of electronics used determines the quality of the engine and not just the fact that it uses a common rail and single pump. PD can not only match the current state of the art CRDI but can compete respectably with it for next one generation CRDI i would guess. PD has to be discontinued because being a mechanical thingy, its exp to manufacture (imagine number of pumps needed for v12!), further refinement is harder to obtain, and it is bad with noise and emissions. CRDI is a marketing name which can mean any generation and any manufacturer. OTH PD means just one thing. the sun is setting in the PD world, but its not noon in the CRDI world
	() Thanks

9th January 2008, 23:02	#14
BUSA Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,127 Thanked: 23 Times View My Garage	You mean to say the engine in the Octy 1.9TDi is better then the Lolla?
	() Thanks