[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by arsenal.arun

During my regular service of Chevrolet Spark (25k kms interval), the Service Centre suggested me to do Fuel System cleaning, which is done using some special chemicals and costed me Rs 1100. Agreeing to his suggestion, I did the same in Jul-2012.

Now in Oct-2012, I have given my car again for service, since 2 free services were pending which were going to lapse in Dec-2012, the Service Centre is again recommending the Fuel System Cleaning.

When I said I have done it just 3 months back, the service guy insisted that it is recommended with every oil change. When I started questioning him what will they do and how can I ensure that the cleaning is done, the service guy hesitantly said that it is not required since you have done the same just 2 months ago.

I took the matter to his senior and asked him to justify how the fuel system cleaning was done in Jul-2012 and how can I be assured that the cleaning was done. The guy has ensured he will respond to me after checking with his people.

Now my basic question is what do they do in the Fuel System cleaning and how can I ensure the service centre has done it?

Well for most the the service centers,fuel system cleaning is putting some additive into the fuel tank so that you will get the smoothness when you drive.Actual fuel system cleaning involves the use of specialized equipments to clean the system which the service canters wont do since its very time consuming. So its highly likely that you have been charged for the additive!

Ask them what all steps they have used in this procedure and if they say they use some machines,ask them to show to you that!

[Swapnil4585]

I'm getting my Altis' petrol tank cleaned tomorrow, from a specialist at tank cleaning. The work would involve cleaning of the fuel lines also. I am not facing any fuel delivery issues as such, but just to negate any possible future problems that may arise due to lockdown, etc. I also intend to change the spark plugs and fuel filter. The labor charges for entire work (excluding cost of filter and plugs) is ascertained at 1500/-

My questions are -

1. Is it advisable to leave the pump as it is and just clean the rest?
2. What would be the benefits of a good job / troubles of a bad job?

[Swapnil4585]

Question from a Honda Brio owner friend.

He filled petrol worth Re 500/- in his car when his car gave a low fuel warning. After filling it when he went on the highway, he noticed petrol smell under hard acceleration and also little hesitation around 2500 rpm mark. Also, the fuel economy associated with this particular filling was noticeably low.

The next pump attendant confirmed his doubt that the earlier fuel was adulterated. Now his question his, to undo the after effects should he get his tank removed and cleaned and filter replaced or just replacing the filter should do?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

He filled petrol worth Re 500/- in his car when his car gave a low fuel warning. After filling it when he went on the highway, he noticed petrol smell under hard acceleration and also little hesitation around 2500 rpm mark. Also, the fuel economy associated with this particular filling was noticeably low.

The next pump attendant confirmed his doubt that the earlier fuel was adulterated. Now his question his, to undo the after effects should he get his tank removed and cleaned and filter replaced or just replacing the filter should do?

The fuel filter is generally accessed from the bottom side of the car. If your friend wants to do it himself, he will need to raise the car and place it on the stands safely. A couple of clips to block the rubber hoses are also needed.

Take most of the petrol out by siphoning from the fuel tank. Keep 5 litres of good unadulterated petrol with you.

First, we need to take out the fuel pump fuse. Then go under the car and locate the fuel filter. It will be fitted to the underbody with a small sheet metal bracket. So unscrew the bracket. Remove the clamps from both the rubber hoses (inlet and outlet), bend the hoses and put clips. There might be a little spillage of petrol, so be careful.

You can then drain the remaining small amount of petrol and collect it in a pan. Then fit the new fuel filter, re-connect the hoses and put the clamps. Fit the bracket holding the filter and check all connections / screws / clamps. Then put 5 litres of good petrol in the tank. Lower the car and insert the fuel pump fuse back in place. During all the above procedure, keep the key out of the steering column.

Now crank the car; it will need more cranking for the first time.

I have done this job on my SX4 and it took around half an hour with assistance from my son (only filter change; no draining of the tank). I did it myself because my mechanic was bit lazy to locate the fuel filter. For SX4, it is located at the centre of the width, inside a tunnel and not easily visible. For most cars, it is located on one side (passanger side mostly) on the underbody.

If the service station / FNG is doing the job quickly at a reasonable cost (₹ 200 for FNG and 350 - 400 for HASS), then I find it worth giving it to them. In my case, the MASS told some exorbitant charge and they will take the whole day. So I did it myself. Just to make a job card in the morning and hand over the car in the evening (they usually pick the car up and drop back home), MASS will need more time than I took for the DIY job.

This is pretty routine job and any FNG shall be able to do it correctly. You can also get some videos on the YouTube specific to your car.

[Gansan]

Fuel tank needs to be cleaned only if wrong fuel is filled, such as diesel in a petrol car. If it is just Rs 500 worth of adulterated fuel, then go to your trusted fuel station and fill a full tank of correct fuel, preferably the premium variety. From the next fill one can go back to the usual fuel.

I have never cleaned the fuel tanks of my car or bike for the past two decades. I did clean it once during my two stroke bike days, and got in to problems. The tank started rusting on the inside and thereafter nothing could set it right, short of buying a new tank.

I never allow the fuel level to go below the half tank mark in my vehicles. I will always top up to full level at that point. Therefore I will never be in any urgent situation to fill fuel, and can always fill at a place of my choice and time.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Fuel tank needs to be cleaned only if wrong fuel is filled, such as diesel in a petrol car. If it is just Rs 500 worth of adulterated fuel, then go to your trusted fuel station and fill a full tank of correct fuel, preferably the premium variety. From the next fill one can go back to the usual fuel.

I have never cleaned the fuel tanks of my car or bike for the past two decades. I did clean it once during my two stroke bike days, and got in to problems. The tank started rusting on the inside and thereafter nothing could set it right, short of buying a new tank.

While I love going through your posts Sir, I'd respectfully disagree here. May be it's the fuel quality available in our cities/regions, but I learnt it the hard way in 2018 when my 2000 vintage Maruti 800 5 Speed broke down due to fuel pump malfunction. Till then, in 18 years of it's life, I had never cleaned the tank. Sediments kept accumulating over the years and it clogged the strainer and eventually killed the pump. Link of the entire incident: Fuel Pump Breakdown (The love of my life - A 2000 Maruti 800 DX 5-Speed. EDIT: Gets export model features on Pg 27)

Few pics of the fuel tank condition then:

2 years after this incident, when the country went into complete lockdown, I again lowered the fuel tank, this time at home and wished to see how the condition is. To my horror, the fuel tank again had a good layer of sediments, although the strainer wasn't as badly clogged as the first time. Link to the DIY: DIY Fuel System clean (The love of my life - A 2000 Maruti 800 DX 5-Speed. EDIT: Gets export model features on Pg 27)

I'm not sure how fuel quality is now after BS6 rollout, but I'll surely lower the fuel tank in all my cars now after at least 5 years, because that's how bad my experience has been.

I never allow the fuel level to go below the half tank mark in my vehicles. I will always top up to full level at that point. Therefore I will never be in any urgent situation to fill fuel, and can always fill at a place of my choice and time.

Very true. This is something which has been the mantra in our family too. Dad always ensured fuel level never goes below 50% mark in his cars. That indirectly helped with the health of fuel pump and metal tanks.

Regards,
Shashi

[Swapnil4585]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

This is pretty routine job and any FNG shall be able to do it correctly. You can also get some videos on the YouTube specific to your car.

We took the car to a fuel specialist. At the outset he denied removing the fuel tank or even the filter but went to the fuel filler cap and loosened it stating that it was too tightly closed. A lot of pressure was build up inside. A quick scan later, a code related to the EVAP popped up which was cleared. As for the bad fuel he asked to fill from a trusted bunk and observe.

The next question - How to close the cap perfectly, as too loose or too tight both have its own problems?

As I type this now, the EVAP related error has come up again.

Originally Posted by Gansan

Fuel tank needs to be cleaned only if wrong fuel is filled, such as diesel in a petrol car. If it is just Rs 500 worth of adulterated fuel, then go to your trusted fuel station and fill a full tank of correct fuel, preferably the premium variety. From the next fill one can go back to the usual fuel.

I never allow the fuel level to go below the half tank mark in my vehicles. I will always top up to full level at that point.

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

While I love going through your posts Sir, I'd respectfully disagree here.

The fuel expert advised not to keep much fuel, especially petrol, in the tank if the car isn't used frequently citing the high ethanol content. One can, if the vehicle is driven daily / regularly.

I still don't know why, but I believe that if our cars' tanks are lowered right now, we can collect debris in the amounts like what Leoshashi has shown. Would the cleaning job not improve things?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

May be it's the fuel quality available in our cities/regions, but I learnt it the hard way in 2018 when my 2000 vintage Maruti 800 5 Speed broke down due to fuel pump malfunction. Till then, in 18 years of it's life, I had never cleaned the tank. Sediments kept accumulating over the years and it clogged the strainer and eventually killed the pump

2 years after this incident, when the country went into complete lockdown, I again lowered the fuel tank, this time at home and wished to see how the condition is. To my horror, the fuel tank again had a good layer of sediments, although the strainer wasn't as badly clogged as the first time.

Thanks for sharing this information Leoshashi.

In my last 10+ years and 1,37,000 km of my SX4, I never had any problems anywhere including the fuel system. Learning from your experience, I think I shall clean the tank once as a preventive measure.

I won't prefer to take down the fuel tank for this job (unless there is no choice). Once the things are taken out, the mechanics often don't fit it with original perfection. They don't bother about the fits, finishes, uniformity of gaps, tightening torque of the screws etc.

So, is there any way to remove the sediments from the tank without taking it down? I don't see any drain plug but can we fill in some petrol (to churn the sediments) and then take out the mixture of petrol + sediments using a siphon?

[condor]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

He filled petrol worth Re 500/- in his car when his car gave a low fuel warning. After filling it when he went on the highway, he noticed petrol smell under hard acceleration and also little hesitation around 2500 rpm mark.

Adulteration can also be due to mixing other liquid adulterants with the petrol. Not necessarily sedimentary fouling.

In the situation that your friend is in, I would start with adding 500 or 1000 Rs worth of premium fuel, run the car and see how it goes. Response should improve. And then do another smal refuel. If after the first refuel things dont improve, then go ahead for a cleaning + change of fuel filter.

Based on my first point of type of adulterant, it should not have added any sediments or increase the sludge that is already there.

However, regarding the point about smell of petrol under hard acceleration - has he checked for any loose/leaking fuel pipe ? Is there petrol leak marks on the floor where he parks his car ? Leaking would be a different issue than bad fuel.

*
After 1.08L and almost 9 years of running, I dont find any reason to have my diesel tank cleaned.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

I still don't know why, but I believe that if our cars' tanks are lowered right now, we can collect debris in the amounts like what Leoshashi has shown. Would the cleaning job not improve things?

Depends on the kind of impurities. If it's bad quality fuel, like say Kerosene mix, or even Diesel, I'd simply fill the correct fuel couple of full-tanks and the issue should go. If its water which has gone in, I'd recommend removing the water first from tank side, cleaning the filter etc.

Regarding the EVAP system code, did you guys check what the code is via OBD scan? The symptoms you are sharing, hints towards a bad/clogged EVAP canister.

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

Thanks for sharing this information Leoshashi.

In my last 10+ years and 1,37,000 km of my SX4, I never had any problems anywhere including the fuel system. Learning from your experience, I think I shall clean the tank once as a preventive measure.

I won't prefer to take down the fuel tank for this job (unless there is no choice). Once the things are taken out, the mechanics often don't fit it with original perfection. They don't bother about the fits, finishes, uniformity of gaps, tightening torque of the screws etc.

So, is there any way to remove the sediments from the tank without taking it down? I don't see any drain plug but can we fill in some petrol (to churn the sediments) and then take out the mixture of petrol + sediments using a siphon?

The fuel tank usually has baffle plates and segregated compartments inside. Thus siphoning won't help. Secondly, given your cars age, I expect some sediment deposit at least. It's better to find a competent mechanic who can get this done. TBH, even in case of my XL6, the removal of fuel tank is pretty easy. You can opt to remove fuel pump assembly if it's doable from within the cabin and then take a call on the entire tank, based on it's condition.

Removal and reinstallation is the least of your worry when dealing with fuel tanks. Presence of baffle plates often makes the cleaning hard.

Mechanics agree that given my car's age, that much sediment deposit is fairly normal. Also for newer cars, theoretically it shouldn't happen because fuel quality today is much better than what it was in the year 2000. But what surprised me was that in 2 years, 2018-2020, the fuel tank still had decent amount of deposits, which means the fuel we get today are still not as clean as they are on paper.

Regards,
Shashi

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Sediments kept accumulating over the years and it clogged the strainer and eventually killed the pump.

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

The next question - How to close the cap perfectly, as too loose or too tight both have its own problems?

I don't remember if Maruti's service schedule mentions fuel tank cleaning at any interval. But it does mention replacing the fuel filter at particular intervals. I remember MSM replaces it for my car every third or fourth year. That is very important.

All fuel tanks will have a sump at the bottom where sediments will collect. I think the fuel pump will be located above it, to avoid suking the dirt in.

As for closing the fuel lid, I give it one turn after it stops turning freely, so that a few clicking sounds are audible. I notice this is how the fuel station people close it as well. I don't think it is possible to tighten it too much to achieve high pressure inside the tank. After all the fuel lid will have a breather hole to let in air, otherwise the fuel can't flow from a sealed tank.

If a car or bike is not used regularly, a full tank should not be maintained, naturally. Then one should fill small quantities as and when required. For me after the pandemic commenced vehicle usage has gone up a lot.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by Gansan

I don't remember if Maruti's service schedule mentions fuel tank cleaning at any interval. But it does mention replacing the fuel filter at particular intervals. I remember MSM replaces it for my car every third or fourth year. That is very important.

Yes, the service schedule doesn't recommend it, but given the conditions we have here, I'd like to be on the safer side. Fuel tank and Cowl cleaning are one of those things I see missing in manufacturer's recommendations, but are extremely crucial for our conditions. These issues usually surface in ownerships which last over 15 years, and thus I'd recommend anyone with such intentions to keep an eye over these things.

Here is a good discussion on Cowl issue: Link (DIY: City cowl panel cleaning & the subterfuge of Honda service centers)

All fuel tanks will have a sump at the bottom where sediments will collect. I think the fuel pump will be located above it, to avoid suking the dirt in.

The sediments accumulate all along the bottom part of the fuel tank, there is no dedicated sump as such, like it's present in some bikes. The pump in older cars like ours sit in a way that their strainer almost touches the bottom most part, thus they can easily get clogged.

Newer cars have a separate plastic housing, which is a little forgiving in these cases.

Pic of Ciaz's Pump:



Pre 2010 Altos:



Maruti 800 MPFI:

If a car or bike is not used regularly, a full tank should not be maintained, naturally. Then one should fill small quantities as and when required.

Wouldn't generalize and would like to share another point here. Older fuel tanks made out of metal are better off with full tank of petrol. Larger the empty space, more chances of rust inside. Some close friends with newer models of M800 and Altos than mine used to get their tanks changed due to rust every few years. When we dug deeper, it was their top part of the tank which used to corrode, always. The part where petrol was present never corroded. They used to keep bare minimum amount of fuel, while my car used to be near full tank always. Thus even today, my car is still on it's original fuel tank.

This doesn't apply on newer cars which use Fiber fuel tanks.

Regards,
Shashi

[Leoshashi]

Apologies for back to back posts, but found something interesting while looking at SX4's tank removal details:

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

I won't prefer to take down the fuel tank for this job (unless there is no choice). Once the things are taken out, the mechanics often don't fit it with original perfection. They don't bother about the fits, finishes, uniformity of gaps, tightening torque of the screws etc.

Hope this pic helps you with relevant details and torque specs. IMO it's fairly easy to remove the tank on SX4 too. Service manual recommends removing one part of exhaust pipe too, but in some cars the fuel tank can still be wiggled out easily after dropping those 4 bolts.

Originally Posted by Gansan

I don't remember if Maruti's service schedule mentions fuel tank cleaning at any interval.

All fuel tanks will have a sump at the bottom where sediments will collect. I think the fuel pump will be located above it, to avoid suking the dirt in.

Maruti doesn't mention cleaning the fuel tank regularly, but they surely have a process listed in their service manuals for workshops:

Thus they too agree it may be a need based service.

Regards,
Shashi

[Swapnil4585]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

Question from a Honda Brio owner friend.

Now his question his, to undo the after effects should he get his tank removed and cleaned and filter replaced or just replacing the filter should do?

The problem has apparently gone after fully using that adulterated fuel and filling regular petrol along with additives thereafter. The EVAP code remains however.


Posting one more query from a friend having petrol Etios and on similar lines.

My friend observes that the last few liters of fuel deplete very fast. It is as if at the bottom of the tank there is something else that gets mixed with fuel. As if the lower middle order of a batting team collapse within no time and the bowlers have come out to bat.

Should he use a good quality additive in half a tank of petrol or should an injector cleaner be poured inside the tank straight away?

[Keneida]

Fueling issues in my Celerio

I have a 2015 Celerio, I was witnessing drop in fuel efficiency just after second lockdown. Car was at home for months. I suspected clogged fuel filter due to 10% ethanol blend and water contamination. I checked the piping diagram for the location of filter, It was not there. Apparently Celerio only has 1 mesh filter in the tank. I took the tank down and pressure washed the mesh filter, let it dry for some time and installed the tank back. Since there is no secondary filter I checked the injectors and they were clogged. Purchased 3 injectors for approx. 3.2K from MS authorized vendor. Problem solved, Lesson learned : Cost saving of 350 rupees by MS may cost owners more.