[kbalii]

Originally Posted by sammyboy

All: Thank you for understanding and taking my points in the right spirit. Its great to be able to have a frank and fruitful discussion with all you guys.

I guess that what the whole forum thingy is all about mate. And I am loving it just like you do.

[sammyboy]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Are you kidding ? Untill consumers are vigilent Indian consumers are going to be fleeced by manufacturers. It does not matter what product or catagory. Negative publicity is a great disinsentive for manufacturers to provide defective / low quality products.

FYI : In Home country of Ford some one might have sued and asked for millions in punitive damage and they could have gone for out of court settlement.

Amit you own a Safari 2.2 dont you ? You have heard of people going to service stations more than most other vehicles but do people stop buying the safari for that? I am not comparing but again if you are okay with that and still got the Safari why cant Ford owners?
Well I agree that Ford should do all those things but then shouldnt others too ? Why crucify one manufacturer and be okay with others? The things you have said should be dont by most manufacturers in India. That is a different discussion regarding what manufacturer should do what and follow what guidelines and how Indians are being fleeced.

The accident you talk about happened years ago at speeds over 150 kmph.Please dont bring things which are of absolute no relevence to the discussion.

[naj]

Hi,
Thanks every one.
Latest update-
I have shown my car to a mechanic through a acquaintance .He has confirmed that the pipe is the same and has explained to me the scope of repairs done.This type of repair costs not more than 3000Rs.

Later I took another person known to both ,me and this hooligan vijay and asked him refund .He today admitted what he has done and has promised to do the refund .Extracting money wont be easy.Atleast there is a ray of hope.
Will keep you posted.
Thanks
naj

[sammyboy]

Fantastic. Thats great news naj. Hope you get things sorted out soon.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by sammyboy

Amit you own a Safari 2.2 dont you ? You have heard of people going to service stations more than most other vehicles but do people stop buying the safari for that? I am not comparing but again if you are okay with that and still got the Safari why cant Ford owners?

Yes you are right and if you have noticed Safari owners are a cribby lot.
Small niggles which others might ignore Safari owners keep on discussing
untill solved. And TATA almost replaces everything under warranty and keeps on collecting feedback from Safari owners thanks to vigilant customers. A stinker mail dropped to tata management usually results in a Service Advisor at your home to test drive and identify problems which gets dismissed normally otherwise ,
Did I ask people not to buy ford ? I just want consumers to know their right and keep manufacturers at thier toe.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

Well I agree that Ford should do all those things but then shouldnt others too ? Why crucify one manufacturer and be okay with others? The things you have said should be dont by most manufacturers in India.

Ofcourse yes every manufacturer should do , Do you think Tata would have changed full clutch assembly after 20K Kilometers free of cost after complaint of clutch being hard for some of the customers on T-BHP otherwise ? Do you think they would have called up people to replace damper pully and Alternators if customers would not have complained ?

Tata Moters people are no saints but people have forced them to listen by going to consumer courts and negative publicity in past.
The fear of tarnished reputation forces them to provide good service to customers and listen to them.

The question is why attempts of customer vigilance should be halted for MNC manufacturers , Any company weather Indian or MNC will maximize profits / minimize costs and fleece consumers because it is a business until consumers are pro-active.

A case in point is Honda they passed of few batches of OHC in India as Euro 3 compliant and later during the service Catcon and few other components were silently replaced recovering costs from customers during service.
On the other hand in USA same Honda recalled thousands of Civic and accords due to a potential fault in breaking.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

That is a different discussion regarding what manufacturer should do what and follow what guidelines and how Indians are being fleeced.

The accident you talk about happened years ago at speeds over 150 kmph.Please dont bring things which are of absolute no relevence to the discussion.

No it is not irrelevant it is a fact that Ford vehicles manufactured in India get corroded very soon and this is because probably no one makes enough noise or sue them.
The reason for corrosion I have heard from a friend who is in to business of supplying steel flats is grade of steel used which results in orange peeling of paint.

[sammyboy]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Yes you are right and if you have noticed Safari owners are a cribby lot.
Small niggles which others might ignore Safari owners keep on discussing
untill solved. And TATA almost replaces everything under warranty and keeps on collecting feedback from Safari owners thanks to vigilant customers.

No it is not irrelevant it is a fact that Ford vehicles manufactured in India get corroded very soon and this is because probably no one makes enough noise or sue them.
The reason for corrosion I have heard from a friend who is in to business of supplying steel flats is grade of steel used which results in orange peeling of paint.

No corrosion in my car (3.5 yrs old), dad's car (1.3 yrs old) and 5 of my friends cars (which were all bought within 1 month of each other 4 years back). Guess your friend isnt supplying it to Ford after all

I only go to the service station to get my car's servicing and routine check up done.
Almost 40K kms, 4 visits to the service station, and thats it. No parts to deal with warranty because the parts didnt need replacement . No visits to the service station apart from regular checks because the cars didnt need to.

I have a car that stays with me more than it stays with the service station. I guess thats why Ford owners are not as vigilant.

I guess it says it all.

Cheers

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by sammyboy

No corrosion in my car (3.5 yrs old), dad's car (1.3 yrs old) and 5 of my friends cars (which were all bought within 1 month of each other 4 years back). Guess your friend isnt supplying it to Ford after all

The question is not your car or my car but for each and every single Ikon manufactured, The member in question is facing corrosion issue.

In manufacturing process defects are measured in parts per million so there is a good possibility that there will be quite a few defect free peaces even in worst possible manufacturing process.

Best example is some of the TCIC Safaris which have completed
4.5+ lakh KM with out any issue but it does not mean that every single
safari from same initial batch is niggle free same applies to ford.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

I only go to the service station to get my car's servicing and routine check up done. Almost 40K kms, 4 visits to the service station, and thats it. No parts to deal with warranty because the parts didnt need replacement . No visits to the service station apart from regular checks because the cars didnt need to.

Good for you hope this continues for your vehicle for the life of vehicle, but this in no way paves way for objecting to those who post their woes and share them to larger audience.

[sammyboy]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Best example is some of the TCIC Safaris which have completed
4.5+ lakh KM with out any issue but it does not mean that every single
safari from same initial batch is niggle free same applies to ford.

Good for you hope this continues for your vehicle for the life of vehicle, but this in no way paves way for objecting to those who post their woes and share them to larger audience.

Exactly, I am saying the same thing . Lets not generalise one problem to all Ford cars. Yes cars do have issues and manufacturers should be taken to task but please dont be prejudiced. There are examples of all cars having issues on the forum. That doesnt mean that we single out one and keep thrashing them.
I am absolutely not objecting naj sharing his issue at all. I think its very sad but i also feel that its a 2004 make which is not used for extended periods. We all know what happens in such conditions.
Who wouldnt want to have a trouble free car, all of us would but till there is one, such things will keep us going

The beauty of this forum is that it enables us to put forward our views and learn new things everyday from everyone. I appreciate yours and everyone elses view points.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

While doing repairs at the local garage -

(1) Stay near your car and watch the work being dong. (of course, you will loose leave).

(2) Make it clear that you will ask for return of the replaced parts at the end of the job. (else, they will be like "saar, if you only you had told that you wanted the replaced parts back, we would not have thrown it away..."). Take the vehicle away if he will not return the replaced parts.

Some mechanics will trivialise the replaced parts by saying "only an oil seal saarr.... what use for you?" Have the guts to say that your kid will use it as a toy.

(3) Buy the spares yourselves and give it to the mechanic. Insist on return of the packing too. (some brands of spares have hidden "gifts" for mechanics in the packing. Make sure that the mechanic gets them - as a mark of good will).

(4) Be clear about what you want to be done. And how. Even "trusted" people will take advantage of even minor ignorance on your part.

(5) Mr. X is trustworthy for me, does not mean that you can trust Mr. X. Even if I recommended Mr. X to you.

[sammyboy]

Very good points backseatdriver. I think we all should remember these points to avoid getting fooled.

One more point :

If you are not well versed with the aspects, try to take someone along who knows about this stuff.

[rjstyles69]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Are you kidding ? Untill consumers are vigilent Indian consumers are going to be fleeced by manufacturers. It does not matter what product or catagory. Negative publicity is a great disinsentive for manufacturers to provide defective / low quality products.

Absolutely not period. My question was why pull ford alone into this as a manufacturer? I guess you never read that, also my point was why is the thread title " Exhorbitant Ford Spares made me go to a local mechanic " wherein naj clearly indicates that he was fleeced by a local mechanic.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Yes you are right and if you have noticed Safari owners are a cribby lot.
Small niggles which others might ignore Safari owners keep on discussing
untill solved. And TATA almost replaces everything under warranty and keeps on collecting feedback from Safari owners thanks to vigilant customers. A stinker mail dropped to tata management usually results in a Service Advisor at your home to test drive and identify problems which gets dismissed normally otherwise.

Maybe you ought to read this thread 1st and then go on to say if a stinker relly works wonders as you claim. I am yet to see this and honestly if it does please help the owner of this Sumo. Replacing parts as per wish and still not getting to the root of the problem is the biggest loss.

There are a few more active threads which I don't want to quote for obvious reasons and I really feel bad for the vehicle owners.
But then no-one tries to throw brickbats at the manufacturer than try and sort out issues.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Did I ask people not to buy ford ? I just want consumers to know their right and keep manufacturers at their toe.

You never did and nor would someone heed to it. Consumers know their rights and the testimony is right here on t-bhp. Please read thru some of the threads.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Tata Moters people are no saints but people have forced them to listen by going to consumer courts and negative publicity in past.
The fear of tarnished reputation forces them to provide good service to customers and listen to them.

Once again please try and help varunroy since you mentioned TATA Motors.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by sammyboy

Exactly, I am saying the same thing . Lets not generalise one problem to all Ford cars. Yes cars do have issues and manufacturers should be taken to task but please dont be prejudiced.

OP posted his woes and how it can be treated as thrashing and even If I added an observed fact that ford manufactured cars are prone to rust
why this should be taken as assault by you.
For the record I own Tata , Maruti and GM manufactured Cars and I have absolutely no problem if any other owner vents out his / her grievances in a public forum.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

There are examples of all cars having issues on the forum. That doesnt mean that we single out one and keep thrashing them.

Why not bring out all such examples by *ALL* manufacturers instead ? The purpose of Accessory/Parts review and ownership reports section on T-BHP is to discuss such issues. Why any one should play a moderator on behalf of their beloved brand ?

Originally Posted by sammyboy

I am absolutely not objecting naj sharing his issue at all. I think its very sad but i also feel that its a 2004 make which is not used for extended periods. We all know what happens in such conditions.
Who wouldnt want to have a trouble free car, all of us would but till there is one, such things will keep us going

Cars do last rust free for more then a decade and if majority of cars being rusted in 4 / 5 years are from one manufacturer then there is definitely a quality issue.

Originally Posted by rjstyles69

Absolutely not period. My question was why pull ford alone into this as a manufacturer? I guess you never read that, also my point was why is the thread title " Exhorbitant Ford Spares made me go to a local mechanic " wherein naj clearly indicates that he was fleeced by a local mechanic.

We are questioning ford in this thread because it is about a ford , At other places we can discuss tata , maruti , GM , honda whatever if they treat customers badly. There is a thread dedicated to Honda cheating a customer and no one asks why only Honda and there are other threads for other manufacturers. Having said that lets come to the topic.

No.. naj mentioned his delima of choosing between devil and deep sea
The basic questions are
1.) why ford A.S.S should try to change the parts fully when they can be repaired and used. The Service adviser clearly stated ford believes in replacing instead of repairing. For me this translates to Ford believes in milking you forever.

2.) IF only few portions are rusted why should A.S.S try to replace full exhaust system ?

3.) Why the exhaust pipes which have no complicated components but steel pipes ( other then Catalytic convector which was not rusted/replaced in this case) be priced at 21,000 Rupees for a car which sells for 4+ Lakh rupees ( besides tax , insurance etc )

4.) Why the exhaust system should rust at all with in 4 years of manufacture.

Originally Posted by rjstyles69

Maybe you ought to read this thread 1st and then go on to say if a stinker relly works wonders as you claim. I am yet to see this and honestly if it does please help the owner of this Sumo. Replacing parts as per wish and still not getting to the root of the problem is the biggest loss.

There are a few more active threads which I don't want to quote for obvious reasons and I really feel bad for the vehicle owners.
But then no-one tries to throw brickbats at the manufacturer than try and sort out issues.



You never did and nor would someone heed to it. Consumers know their rights and the testimony is right here on t-bhp. Please read thru some of the threads.



Once again please try and help varunroy since you mentioned TATA Motors.

First of all i am not a Tata spokesperson or apologist I am just a customer and I have absolutely no problem if people facing problems with Tata do indulge in negative publicity.

In fact I always advice people facing issue with any product to use their review as a tool to punish manufacturer.
" Jago Grahak Jago"

We all know woes faced by VarunRoy and because of his heroic efforts , Tata Moters A.S.S at least in bangalore are proactive.
Stinkers did not work for Varun but they worked for many others as reported on T-BHP may be it is aftereffect of Varun's fight and power of T-BHP.

who thinks that they should provide me best service and cars at cheapest possible price. As a Tata Moters customer if any other customer airs his problems the least I can do is not jump to defense of my beloved manufacturer and provide my support to a fellow customer in whatever forum, instead of admonishing him on how he can solve his problems in alternative manner.

I do expat that customers of other manufacturers should do the same.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by sammyboy

Amit, you have been cribbing about all the points in our posts but have you even paid attention to Naj's update(FYI his name is not OP) or backseatdriver's or icemans or rjstyles or anyone elses good points? I dont see a single reply or acknowledgement of that in any of your posts.

OP means original poster and a common abbrivation used on internet fora for discussions.
I found backseatdriver's tips good as I was discussing an altogether different point so never acknowledged it but neither it was necessary on my part to do so but sorry Sammyboy your posts look more like a ford fanboy .

Originally Posted by sammyboy

I am not trying to defend any one here merely stating my point of view. If you cant see it, too bad. I wont change it until I get a good reason to and I dont see reason enough from your posts.

Your choice I will not discuss this topic any further in response to your posts

Originally Posted by sammyboy

No one is thrashing naj and his views, if you have read the posts you would know. And using words like "assault" dont give any credibility to your post. It just shows the tone of your reply and it isnt a tone which is used to help people understand in a civil manner.

I do not understand what is uncivil in my posts and what exactly is the tone you are talking , A different openion just does not mean some one is not civil but as I stated above my points have been made and I do not see
any need for further discussion over it.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

If you really want the manufacturers to listen and maybe make Ford reduce the prices of their spares and actually "walk the talk" of "jaago grahak jaago" then you should post a pricelist of Ford vs other spares so that we also know if we are actually being cheated.
Maybe we as Ford owners are being cheated and by doing this we can actually learn.

I have already walked the talk by repetitively by choosing cars for which spares and service are cheaper and punished GM by not going for any repurchase , I do not think it is necessary or warrented on my part to publish ford spare parts costs.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

That in my opinion would prove the points you are trying to make rather than trying to quote us and replying with points which we just will not see eye to eye on.
This is not a saracastic post but I also would like to see if Ford owners actually pay so much more and suffer more than other manufacturers.

If this is really your intent then IBM_jennifer has published spare parts cost for Safari and there is always a Maruti A.S.S in every neighbourhood so you can always compare and check if you want.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by amitk26

I found backseatdriver's tips good as I was discussing an altogether different point so never acknowledged it but neither it was necessary on my part to do so but sorry Sammyboy your posts look more like a ford fanboy .

I have already walked the talk by repetitively by choosing cars for which spares and service are cheaper and punished GM by not going for any repurchase , I do not think it is necessary or warrented on my part to publish ford spare parts costs.

If this is really your intent then IBM_jennifer has published spare parts cost for Safari and there is always a Maruti A.S.S in every neighbourhood so you can always compare and check if you want.

You do not wish to put up costs of spares from Ford, you do not wish to compare with any other manufacturer, but you have the nerve to call someone else a fanboy. So, what are you getting at?!

The OP had a bad experience with a local mechanic, which is now on the way to getting resolved. So, probably that should end the debate.

The problem lay with the OP's inexperience of whom he approached and was taken for a ride. He is now wiser by experience.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

You do not wish to put up costs of spares from Ford, you do not wish to compare with any other manufacturer, but you have the nerve to call someone else a fanboy. So, what are you getting at?!

Hold on what are we getting at ? The original poster complained about high cost of spares and not me who reported that. Please be aware I have no onus to research ford spare parts cost , People suggesting / recommending ford to others or justifying 21000 Rs for exhaust pipes in this particular case should do so.

The basic question I raised are reproduced again and highlighted

(1) why at all a Ford Vehicles should runt with in 4 years of manufacturing
(2) Why at all Ford A.S.S should suggest to change whole exhaust system instead of repair Cost not being a primary issue for point 2.
(3) Why exhaust pipes should cost for 21,000 Rs at all if this does not include catalytic converter.

If some one does not see why Ford is to blame for above 3 he/she is surely a fanboy /fan girl.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

The OP had a bad experience with a local mechanic, which is now on the way to getting resolved. So, probably that should end the debate.

The problem lay with the OP's inexperience of whom he approached and was taken for a ride. He is now wiser by experience.

But you do not wish to address the issue why OP went to a local mechanic
the answer to this question is in question number (2) and (3) above.