DiCOR - What went wrong?

greenhorn · 18th September 2009, 12:02

There have been general reports about Dicor vehicles
Yahoo! Groups
Yahoo! Groups

then there are steeroid and tsk1979's safaris. Though they are both running fine now, the issues they faced are not something others face.

cost effectiveness = you spend 50k extra to buy, and a few extra thousands to maintain an indigo dicor, 30k for an indica dicor and you dont get any substantial benefits over a TCIC indica, like mine. While the TC/TCICs were a substantial improvement over the NA versions, and the price difference was not at much - 15k between the NA and the TC, and 10K between the TC and the TCIC.This would put the Dicor squarely in the Diminishing returns category IMO

Maybe I had too high expectations of them.

tsk1979 · 18th September 2009, 12:21

Greenhorn the thread is a little misleading.
Let me clarify doubt one
1. The Indigo Dicor.
Now why would you pay 50K extra for the indigo DICOR?
The answer is simple. The engine is much better than TDI. How? 2BHP more? Well no. The TDI engines peak capability is around 75BHP. AT 70 horses, its actually ouputting the best it can give.
On the other hand the 1.4 DICOR easily manages 90 horses without breaking a sweat. The problem is gearbox. With 90bhp at same rpm, you would need a beefier gearbox, which would push costs up by 20-30K more, therefore the engine is running detuned. So nothing wrong with engine Per se.
Its a problem on product intergration front, and not engine front
2. Safari DICOR
Now issues here also have been mostly unrelated to DICOR per se. There have been injector changes in many 2.2s. And now there is a software fix. The problem was that service light with rail pressure error code used to come frequently, and only fix was injector change. However the service light used to come because the tolerances in software were much less than the injection system was designed for. So this service light which caused absolutely no issues in driveability caused a lot of grief to the users as well as tata as they had to replace perfectly working injectors. With new software this issue is solved.

Apart from that, there have not been any issues with engine in any 2.2. Some older ones had timing belt break issues, which was also fixed with a retro. Mine is the only safari with a problem thats not solved(idle hunting). Again this is a one off issue, and not really a DICOR issue.
The other problems in my car(brakes sliding, 4x4 hub failure etc., etc.,) have all been related to other components and not the DICOR engine.
Even the 2 breakdows where we were stranded were related to radiator leakage and temp sensor failure.

So there is no problem with DICOR. The problem is with TATA QC which is not at par with others. Thats why you have stuff like tie rods failing etc, etc.,

Tata QC(or lack of it) has been done to death, and most people are aware that when you get into TATA you get a VFM product, albeit with more niggles than the competition.

greenhorn · 18th September 2009, 13:42

So do you think the dicor engines have a future in tata products?

will there be a 1.4 dicor in the new indigo vista with 90 horses? sid's old thread about it mentions 75 for the dicor.

I hope that the answers to both these questions are yes

Btw, is tata still continuing to work with delphi for these? they were supposed to be working with bosch for the nano powerplant, which will make it a proper CRDI. Or are both these engines being developed

wanderernomad · 18th September 2009, 14:17

Even I have a 2007 DICOR Marina and have so far not faced any reliablity issues with the engine at all. Yes its a TAD expensive to maintain but then the amount of power (if you keep it in the right power band) and the NVH levels are anyhting to compare its miles better than its TDI sibling.

gigy · 18th September 2009, 14:25

TATA has always had only one problem- quality control/maintenance/implementation

kri$hna · 18th September 2009, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigy

TATA has always had only one problem- quality control/maintenance/implementation

Thats three different problems causing a SIngle Large Impact to the customer !!

Gilead · 18th September 2009, 14:31

Greenhorn, you mentioned the possibility of Tata doing something to Fiat which they already did earlier with Mercedes. What was that about?

DerAlte · 18th September 2009, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRC

... my cousin was told ...

Quite likely by a person who has as much relationship with the vehicle as a bus conductor ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

... Safari 3.0 was geared to do around 50 kmph / 1000 rpm. ...

In which gear?

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn

... the issues they faced are not something others face.

cost effectiveness = you spend 50k extra to buy, ... you dont get any substantial benefits over a TCIC indica, like mine. ...

If others don't face the issues that steeroid (

) and tsk faced, then why the gripe? That is 2 vehicles out of a few tens of thousands, right? I think only tsk had faced injection / injector issues, but that was not because of DICOR.

Oy, are you cocking a snook at the others because you have a TCIC engine? Cost effectivess is related to Total Cost of Ownership, which apart from investment includes a lot of other tangible and intangible benefits. By your logic, a Ferrari, Jaguar or a Land/Range rover - with their myriad problems - would be even less cost effective, right?

jaysmokesleaves · 18th September 2009, 15:13

DiCOR - What went wrong?

At the end of 2 pages I still can't figure out what went wrong? What? How? Where? Show me?
C'mon lets beat up Tata ...

greenhorn · 18th September 2009, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilead

Greenhorn, you mentioned the possibility of Tata doing something to Fiat which they already did earlier with Mercedes. What was that about?

I'm unable to cite a source now. I recall reading this in an old issue of auto india. Is related to tata's first engine, and consequent parting of ways with Mercedes benz

@ jay. I'm not beating up tata. Just wondering where all the vehicles which were launched as Dicors are now being relaunched in turbo guise. Wasnt dicor supposed to be the future ?

DerAlte · 18th September 2009, 15:17

You must be referring to the 60's TMB truck engine, but why the exhumation in the context with DICOR? IMHO what Tata is doing for FIAT today is quite commendable in industry context.

DRC · 18th September 2009, 15:41

Sorry to drag off topic, but, Tata estate was almost an exact replica (exterior) of some Merc Model. I am sure they were associated with MB in more than 1 ways and had the part ways later.

Rahulk76 · 18th September 2009, 15:41

Interesting thread..

@greenhorn.. I agree to the points you have made.

DICOR technology implemeneted by TATA is extremely weak. 99% of the guys at workshops with whom I have interacted were against DICOR tech of tata citing too many issues with electronic gizmos and thats where TDI of TML excels.. extremely maintainance free.

There are far too many aspects involved in DICOR for tata's to handle them well in professional manner unlike the competition.

Their QC is the real road block as far as my personal opinion goes.

There are quite a few vehicles (dicor) which are lying in workshops across india pertaining to electronic issues, FIP etc etc which we on this forum dont know, do we..And the only ones which we know on this forum, are the ones we all share across. Dont we ?

Ask the DICOR family vehicle owners on this forum, who drive this family of vehicles everyday pertaining to niggle & expensive maintainence of the same to come to a real analysis of the problems. That figure wont even count beyond 5% of the total dicors sold across india IMHO.

Reliability & Quality adherence is the main issue, whether its DICOR or TDI, which TML still has to catch up.

ashutoshb · 18th September 2009, 15:51

This thread is about Tata opting for a better engine, the Fiat multijet, rather than its own Dicor.. right? Then why are we comparing it with the TDI?

kri$hna · 18th September 2009, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAlte

You must be referring to the 60's TMB truck engine, but why the exhumation in the context with DICOR? IMHO what Tata is doing for FIAT today is quite commendable in industry context.

Really ???

I guess its a win-win situation for both FIAT and TATA... but TATA can any day kick fiat off the hook ... i hope that day is not around soon.
i always feel indica is an inch to inch copy of punto+ fiat.. most parts fit indica without modification. Now dont say palio is a copy of indica ..

18th September 2009, 12:02	#16
greenhorn BANNED Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KL-01 Posts: 7,878 Thanked: 4,910 Times View My Garage	There have been general reports about Dicor vehicles Yahoo! Groups Yahoo! Groups then there are steeroid and tsk1979's safaris. Though they are both running fine now, the issues they faced are not something others face. cost effectiveness = you spend 50k extra to buy, and a few extra thousands to maintain an indigo dicor, 30k for an indica dicor and you dont get any substantial benefits over a TCIC indica, like mine. While the TC/TCICs were a substantial improvement over the NA versions, and the price difference was not at much - 15k between the NA and the TC, and 10K between the TC and the TCIC.This would put the Dicor squarely in the Diminishing returns category IMO Maybe I had too high expectations of them. Last edited by greenhorn : 18th September 2009 at 12:05.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 12:21	#17
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,697 Thanked: 23,489 Times View My Garage	Greenhorn the thread is a little misleading. Let me clarify doubt one 1. The Indigo Dicor. Now why would you pay 50K extra for the indigo DICOR? The answer is simple. The engine is much better than TDI. How? 2BHP more? Well no. The TDI engines peak capability is around 75BHP. AT 70 horses, its actually ouputting the best it can give. On the other hand the 1.4 DICOR easily manages 90 horses without breaking a sweat. The problem is gearbox. With 90bhp at same rpm, you would need a beefier gearbox, which would push costs up by 20-30K more, therefore the engine is running detuned. So nothing wrong with engine Per se. Its a problem on product intergration front, and not engine front 2. Safari DICOR Now issues here also have been mostly unrelated to DICOR per se. There have been injector changes in many 2.2s. And now there is a software fix. The problem was that service light with rail pressure error code used to come frequently, and only fix was injector change. However the service light used to come because the tolerances in software were much less than the injection system was designed for. So this service light which caused absolutely no issues in driveability caused a lot of grief to the users as well as tata as they had to replace perfectly working injectors. With new software this issue is solved. Apart from that, there have not been any issues with engine in any 2.2. Some older ones had timing belt break issues, which was also fixed with a retro. Mine is the only safari with a problem thats not solved(idle hunting). Again this is a one off issue, and not really a DICOR issue. The other problems in my car(brakes sliding, 4x4 hub failure etc., etc.,) have all been related to other components and not the DICOR engine. Even the 2 breakdows where we were stranded were related to radiator leakage and temp sensor failure. So there is no problem with DICOR. The problem is with TATA QC which is not at par with others. Thats why you have stuff like tie rods failing etc, etc., Tata QC(or lack of it) has been done to death, and most people are aware that when you get into TATA you get a VFM product, albeit with more niggles than the competition.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 13:42	#18
greenhorn BANNED Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KL-01 Posts: 7,878 Thanked: 4,910 Times View My Garage	So do you think the dicor engines have a future in tata products? will there be a 1.4 dicor in the new indigo vista with 90 horses? sid's old thread about it mentions 75 for the dicor. I hope that the answers to both these questions are yes Btw, is tata still continuing to work with delphi for these? they were supposed to be working with bosch for the nano powerplant, which will make it a proper CRDI. Or are both these engines being developed
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 14:17	#19
wanderernomad Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bengaluru Posts: 2,552 Thanked: 1,296 Times View My Garage	Even I have a 2007 DICOR Marina and have so far not faced any reliablity issues with the engine at all. Yes its a TAD expensive to maintain but then the amount of power (if you keep it in the right power band) and the NVH levels are anyhting to compare its miles better than its TDI sibling.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 14:25	#20
gigy Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: mumbai Posts: 1,321 Thanked: 47 Times	TATA has always had only one problem- quality control/maintenance/implementation
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 14:31	#22
Gilead Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chennai Posts: 2,142 Thanked: 60 Times	Greenhorn, you mentioned the possibility of Tata doing something to Fiat which they already did earlier with Mercedes. What was that about?
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 15:13	#24
jaysmokesleaves Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mostly Mumbai Posts: 1,701 Thanked: 1,466 Times	DiCOR - What went wrong? At the end of 2 pages I still can't figure out what went wrong? What? How? Where? Show me? C'mon lets beat up Tata ...
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 15:17	#26
DerAlte Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 8,035 Thanked: 2,920 Times	You must be referring to the 60's TMB truck engine, but why the exhumation in the context with DICOR? IMHO what Tata is doing for FIAT today is quite commendable in industry context.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 15:41	#27
DRC BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cockpit Posts: 907 Thanked: 67 Times View My Garage	Sorry to drag off topic, but, Tata estate was almost an exact replica (exterior) of some Merc Model. I am sure they were associated with MB in more than 1 ways and had the part ways later.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 15:41	#28
Rahulk76 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 1,148 Thanked: 235 Times	Interesting thread.. @greenhorn.. I agree to the points you have made. DICOR technology implemeneted by TATA is extremely weak. 99% of the guys at workshops with whom I have interacted were against DICOR tech of tata citing too many issues with electronic gizmos and thats where TDI of TML excels.. extremely maintainance free. There are far too many aspects involved in DICOR for tata's to handle them well in professional manner unlike the competition. Their QC is the real road block as far as my personal opinion goes. There are quite a few vehicles (dicor) which are lying in workshops across india pertaining to electronic issues, FIP etc etc which we on this forum dont know, do we..And the only ones which we know on this forum, are the ones we all share across. Dont we ? Ask the DICOR family vehicle owners on this forum, who drive this family of vehicles everyday pertaining to niggle & expensive maintainence of the same to come to a real analysis of the problems. That figure wont even count beyond 5% of the total dicors sold across india IMHO. Reliability & Quality adherence is the main issue, whether its DICOR or TDI, which TML still has to catch up.
	() Thanks

18th September 2009, 15:51	#29
ashutoshb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NOIDA Posts: 1,960 Thanked: 5,375 Times View My Garage	This thread is about Tata opting for a better engine, the Fiat multijet, rather than its own Dicor.. right? Then why are we comparing it with the TDI?
	() Thanks