[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by kri$hna

Really ???

I guess its a win-win situation for both FIAT and TATA... but TATA can any day kick fiat off the hook ... i hope that day is not around soon.
i always feel indica is an inch to inch copy of punto+ fiat.. most parts fit indica without modification. Now dont say palio is a copy of indica ..

Annavre... Similar with Swifts and Ritz's.

Since Suzuki / Maruti did not have the capability to produce quality Common Rail engines,they opted for Fiat engines.

We must be happy that the DiCORs ever came on TATA's.

The 3.0 L Safari DiCOR is a gem, though based on a bullet proof 407 engine, the Common rail unit has added a bit of zing into the whole package.

Same with the 2.2 DiCOR's. Show me any SUV in its class to behave as better as the 2.2 DiCOR. None...

[Zappo]

DA, did not you get his context? I got it instantly though... the conspiracy theory basically. He is darkly alluding to the fact that just as Tatas learnt about truck making from MB and then kicked them out to make a success out of its "own indigeneous" truck business similarly here too they failed with their DiCOR technology and now learning it all from the grand dady of Multijet (quadrajet/ddis whatever...) mills. And then they will do a MB to them as well.

Well, Greenhorn buddy. It sounds like fun to discuss conspiracy theories over a cup of coffee. However real business is run with a more shrewd and hard-nosed business acumen than just mere theories. MB did not get a raw deal. Had Tatas used any of their technology or know-how improperly MB would have sued their pants off. Similarly, Fiat is no babe in the woods. They have been in this business for donkey's years. If anything they are much more shrewd than you or I will ever give them credit for. They are in this alliance because they are gaining something out of it. The day they get an inkling of the benefits for them dwindling down you can bet your last penny on it that Fiat will be the first ones to announce a curtain on the alliance. At this juncture its a symbiotic association. Tata's are learning more about refining their engineering skills where it concerns passenger cars and Fiat in turn is learning about low-cost tech, value engineering, improvisation and of course beyond all getting the support of the Tata group and its widespread service network to ride piggyback on.

Finally, in closure, I do find it intriguing that all the past DiCOR launches are making a come back in the TDi avatar if they indeed are. Though I thought it's only Sumo Grande you are talking about. The rest were anyhow available as TDi from their earlier avatars.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by kri$hna

i always feel indica is an inch to inch copy of punto+ fiat.. most parts fit indica without modification. Now dont say palio is a copy of indica ..

Though the palio and the indica have some common design elements, that the parts are interchangeable is news to me...

Zappo, I do agree that its just a conspiracy theory, or something I cooked up when I had way too much time, and nothing else to do.

To be honest, what got me started with this thing was this post
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1456198

A few years ago, there was a flurry of tata engines being launched. the 1.4TC, TCIC, DICOR,3.0DICOR 1.2L MPFI, 2.2VTT ... and then suddenly a lull. I suppose the nano's engine is there, but apart from that , nothing much.I imagine because they are all focussed on the nano.

But I'm still curious what we can expect from tata on the engine front in the future

If it is felt that this thread is without a purpose, then I have no objection to it being closed

[PAVAN KADAM]

I feel its better to have another meaningless COME LETS BASH TATA thread closed.

There's nothing basically wrong with the DiCOR's. TATA's are bettering their present fleet with better engines, which no car manufacturers are trying to do. Lets not fight a thread over personal assumptions.

Let moderators decide on closing this thread or lets start ranting meaninglessly.

[amitk26]

Let me put few things in to the perspective as per my understanding

Agony of modern man is directly proportional to the economic well being.
If bank balance is not dented much then smaller agonies are forgotten.

It would be absolutely wrong to say that TCIC engine was bullet proof and 2.2 Dicor has some problems.

It is just that TCIC engine is better understood by average mechanic and there is no need to depend on Tata workshops thus a smaller hole in pocket and easily ignored.

It is just that ordinary roadside mechanics are not computer literate so the basic tool for ECU controlled engine that is laptop scares them.
I do not think any roadside mechanic ever reads T-BHP or has tried Dadus "cracking the Da'vinci code thread to try out ECU diagnostics using ODB-2

Owners have to go to A.S.S and there is no cheap backup of roadside mechanics.

PS:
After reading comments on 3.0 L Dicor and 407
3.0 L Dicor has origins in 407 Engine but it is NOT same in any way. Only engine block was shared between these two engines.
Appropriate analogy is to M&M Scorpio 2.6 and CRDe . They shared cast iron engine block from tractors that does not mean they use tractor engine.


< WEARING FLAME JACKET>
Similarly old Jeeps engines are not any more bullet proof then Scorpio CRDe, jeepers are often found in workshops much more often then Scorpio owners just that there is always a good excuse that this is 20 years old rebuilt unit.

Pocket friendliness along with passion and nostalgia of jeep keep the noise of unreliability little lower.

There is no empirical evidence that Jeepers use to frequent workshops any less in 70s or 80s when these vehicles were new.

< / FLAME JACKET OFF>

[Zappo]

Pavan stop it please. He has raised a question and people are discussing it. If it is found that maybe the DiCORs are not a failure that will be the outcome of discussion. That is what threads are for. Once a point has been raised people will support or counter the premise with logic and reasoning as well as some data.

You do not have to harp on and on about Tata bashing unnecessarily and drone on and on about closure of the thread. Please.

[suman]

Originally Posted by amitk26

PS:
After reading comments on 3.0 L Dicor and 407
3.0 L Dicor has origins in 407 Engine but it is NOT same in any way. Only engine block was shared between these two engines.

Amit, "basic" engine refers to origins. Obviously a non Common Rail & a Common Rail cannot technically be the "same" can they?

[SUV]

well there is nothing wrong with the 3L Dicor, except from a manufacturer perspective it had no room left for further development ..... What you got from the 3L Block was the maximum it would have done, design being dated, it was only a stop gap measure (rather this engine was destined to the 407), To push Safari sales and to keep up with competitors the 3L was shoehorned into the Safari (till the 2.2 was ready) and could have been done to even out the learning curve :-)

eod: 3L Dicor did not fail for whatever reason assumed....

My Personal Opinion - 3L is prolly much better than the 2.2 ....

Coming to the 1.4 Dicor - Yes it had issues, why ? The last i heard the Exhaust System was the same as the TDI which cause blow back issues in the engine. I guess at some point design issues did away with it for the QJD.... And also the GB mated to it was a limitation... Prolly Tata should try mating the fiat GB onto the Dicor with a better designed exhaust system to match the engines potential...

eod: 1.4L Dicor - end of life ...

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by Zappo

Pavan stop it please. He has raised a question and people are discussing it. If it is found that maybe the DiCORs are not a failure that will be the outcome of discussion. That is what threads are for. Once a point has been raised people will support or counter the premise with logic and reasoning as well as some data.

You do not have to harp on and on about Tata bashing unnecessarily and drone on and on about closure of the thread. Please.

I am surprised.

Everyone is harping negatives about DiCORs, so i do have equal rights countering it.

Since there is no reasoning or any media report / article or any relevent Data to back the thread discussion, i called it meaningless, and i dont feel i wronged here.

I only made One single request to have the thread closed.

There's no need to get aggressive.

[bj96]

Originally Posted by suman

"basic" engine refers to origins...

Well by that logic we are still a Neanderthal. What are we doing on t-bhp?
lets not forget there is a huge power in time and selection... I am sure TML must have "learnt" a lot in the near decade or more they saw between first 407 and a 3L dicor they made. Assuming they are rational enough not to select same mistakes again and again.
BJ

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

Same with the 2.2 DiCOR's. Show me any SUV in its class to behave as better as the 2.2 DiCOR. None...

there he goes again!

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

Everyone is harping negatives about DiCORs, so i do have equal rights countering it.

Since there is no reasoning or any media report / article or any relevent Data to back the thread discussion, i called it meaningless, and i dont feel i wronged here.

I only made One single request to have the thread closed.

There's no need to get aggressive.

you mean every thread/debate/argument in T-BHP should be supported with a media report? oh please. there is absolutely no reason for this thread to be closed.



that said, i agree with all others that the 3.0 safari was comparatively the most reliable dicor from tata. yes, the 3.0 did have some refinement & power band issues (for me!) but never did the engine show any signs of trouble.

yes, i have read some horror stories about the 2.2 dicor, but even in my 2.2 safari, i never has any major issues with the engine. so i do not feel that there is anything wrong with the dicor. infact dicors are the best engines made by tata uptil now.

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

there he goes again!



you mean every thread/debate/argument in T-BHP should be supported with a media report? oh please. there is absolutely no reason for this thread to be closed.



that said, i agree with all others that the 3.0 safari was comparatively the most reliable dicor from tata. yes, the 3.0 did have some refinement & power band issues (for me!) but never did the engine show any signs of trouble.

yes, i have read some horror stories about the 2.2 dicor, but even in my 2.2 safari, i never has any major issues with the engine. so i do not feel that there is anything wrong with the dicor. infact dicors are the best engines made by tata uptil now.

I meant the Same raj

If the thread needs to be alive, so be it. but let it have some path to follow.

Its leading no-where.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amitk26

After reading comments on 3.0 L Dicor and 407
3.0 L Dicor has origins in 407 Engine but it is NOT same in any way. Only engine block was shared between these two engines.
Appropriate analogy is to M&M Scorpio 2.6 and CRDe . They shared cast iron engine block from tractors that does not mean they use tractor engine.

Amit: Your statement about the Scorpio 2.6 and the 2.6 CRDe engine is only partially true. The original 2.6 Scorpio engine was already a very high revving and powerful mil. The 407 3.0 engine on the other hand is very similar to the Mahindra DI engine in the Bolero/Pick up range. They are very bulletproof, cheap to maintain and fuel efficient. However, these are very agricultural engines that are heavy/loud and generally low revving. Max rpm typically peaks at about 3000 rpm. The Scorpio 2.6 (non -crde) eingine and the Tata 3.0 Turbo engine are not in the same league when it comes to refinement.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Amit: Your statement about the Scorpio 2.6 and the 2.6 CRDe engine is only partially true. The original 2.6 Scorpio engine was already a very high revving and powerful mil. The 407 3.0 engine on the other hand is very similar to the Mahindra DI engine in the Bolero/Pick up range. They are very bulletproof, cheap to maintain and fuel efficient. However, these are very agricultural engines that are heavy/loud and generally low revving. Max rpm typically peaks at about 3000 rpm. The Scorpio 2.6 (non -crde) eingine and the Tata 3.0 Turbo engine are not in the same league when it comes to refinement.

i was about to say this but was not sure how well this would be accepted by me!

when talking about refinement, you cannot compare the scorpio's 2.6 CRDe with the safari's 3.0 dicor.

if you wanna check, compare the scorpio non-CRDe with the tata spacio & then compare the scorpio Crde with the 3.0 dicor.

though the mahindra engine's base was derived from the tractor engines, these engine were far from agricultural & they had a very effective power band.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Amit: Your statement about the Scorpio 2.6 and the 2.6 CRDe engine is only partially true. The original 2.6 Scorpio engine was already a very high revving and powerful mil. The 407 3.0 engine on the other hand is very similar to the Mahindra DI engine in the Bolero/Pick up range. ...he Tata 3.0 Turbo engine are not in the same league when it comes to refinement.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

i was about to say this but was not sure how well this would be accepted by me!

when talking about refinement, you cannot compare the scorpio's 2.6 CRDe with the safari's 3.0 dicor.

if you wanna check, compare the scorpio non-CRDe with the tata spacio & then compare the scorpio Crde with the 3.0 dicor.

though the mahindra engine's base was derived from the tractor engines, these engine were far from agricultural & they had a very effective power band.

Is there a comprehension problem somewhere ?

Please reread I never compared M&M and Tata engines it was about analogy of engine being same due to originas for each manufacturer.

I may differ with you on which one is more refined but then this thread is not for comparison between M&M and Tata engines , It is Tata vs tata engine

So rephrasing ..

As Scorp 2.6/CRDe is not same a tractor engine just because block is shared.

407 is not same 3.0 L dicor because engine block is same.


M&M analogy was provided to make point clear to both of you guys as I was quite sure both of you would join this thread sooner or later Missing Anup Mathur still he he he