Bharat Stage IV

dadu · 22nd April 2010, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajay2233

I also have the same doubt....

as long as revenue is generated (read bribe) our law enforcers will not effect any thing..........

sorry state....

Its still required, people can still create Euro I pollution from a Euro IV car by not maintaining it.

shreeps · 22nd April 2010, 18:37

Slightly OT, please excuse:

Revisiting the question of what happens when fuel standards and engine standards dont match - I sent a mail to Maruti Suzuki with the following queries:

I purchased my SX4 ZXi in January. I understand that this is a BSIV emissions compliant vehicle. I have some questions based on that:
1. If the engine of my car is based on BSIV norms, but the petrol available in India till April 1 2010 was of BSIII standards (atleast in Pune where I mostly drive and fill up - other places may still be BSII), will there be any problems to the engine due to using BSIII fuel till April 1? If yes, what problems can I expect and will these be covered under warranty?
2. Currently BSIV fuel is only available in the 13 designated metros. What will happen to the engine of the car if I need to go on a long trip to villages that do not have BSIV standard fuel?
3. Since after April 1, only BSIV compliant vehicles can be registered in the 13 metros, can I sell my vehicle in these metros now and will the RTO allow re-registration?
4. What kind of engine oil does Maruti Suzuki reccomend using in the SX4 VVT - Mineral or Semi Synthetic or Synthetic (of the appropriate grade)?

Here's the reply I got:
Thank you for visiting our website.

We regret the inconvenience caused to you. We advice you to visit the nearest Maruti authorized workshop that would be able to help you.

So much for Maruti's vaunted customer service.

Can any of the gurus on the forum answer at least the first two questions

mpksuhas · 23rd April 2010, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreeps

Slightly OT, please excuse:

I purchased my SX4 ZXi in January. I understand that this is a BSIV emissions compliant vehicle. I have some questions based on that:
1. If the engine of my car is based on BSIV norms, but the petrol available in India till April 1 2010 was of BSIII standards (atleast in Pune where I mostly drive and fill up - other places may still be BSII), will there be any problems to the engine due to using BSIII fuel till April 1? If yes, what problems can I expect and will these be covered under warranty?
2. Currently BSIV fuel is only available in the 13 designated metros. What will happen to the engine of the car if I need to go on a long trip to villages that do not have BSIV standard fuel?
3. Since after April 1, only BSIV compliant vehicles can be registered in the 13 metros, can I sell my vehicle in these metros now and will the RTO allow re-registration?

Hi Shreeps
Please find my comments regarding your questions below. This is the info I got when I was trying to re- register my honda activa from AP in Bangalore, was searching many TBHP posts and this is what i made out
1. As it was mentioned in some posts in this same thread before the vehicles which was mentioned as BSIV before april 1 was not BSIV complaint but just BSIV ready . So guess it wont be an issue using non BSIV fuel in the same. If you take example of Ritz, the K series engine was launched around a year back and i remember them mentioning something like first BSIV ready engine in India or something. But till april 1st there was no BSIV fuel available anywhere in India and even now apart from major metros all other places have BSIII/ II fuel. So I dont feel its of any issue.
2. Same as above, your vehicle is having a BSIV ready engine but its not a BSIV vehicle as such. Also anyways from Jan when you got the car you were using BSIII fuel only

3. Regarding re- registration as I had mentioned in a post about my experience in previous page of this same thread I feel it wont be an issue. But also if you were planning of moving to say Mumbai, a BSIV city it wont an issue of getting your RC book address updated since you are not re-registering as such.
But suppose you want to get it re- registered in say Bangalore then yes as per rules ie something you wont be able to do. But then as I mentioned in my previous post RTO guys are not making an issue of this. Also the other option is to get it registered in any other non BSIV cities in the same state like for example instead of Bangalore (BSIV city) you can get it registered in say Mysore (BSIII city) since both belong to Karnataka state you will still get a KA name plate and escape RTO harrasment. The issue in this being getting a address proof in Mysore and pain of going to that city for initial vehicle inspection and all there.

sgiitk · 23rd April 2010, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Hi Shreeps
.......But till april 1st there was no BSIV fuel available anywhere in India and even now apart from major metros all other places have BSIII/ II fuel. So I dont feel its of any issue...............

Actually there are 13 cities in the BSIV list. these include three from UP alone -Agra, Kanpur & Lucknow. The OMCs were trying to push back BS-III to 1 October (in a phased manner) but have been ordered to do it by June 1. What is surprising is that while we are getting BSIV fuel, they are also selling Premium Fuels which are to BSII (with higher Sulphur, benzene, etc) only. Nobody has looked at this scam. Under BSIII/IV petrol has to be upped to 95RON (from 93 RON of BSII) and also sulphur, benzene, lead, etc have to be reduced.

In preparation of BSIII/IV Premium I understand that Speed97 has been discontinued since it was only 2RON higher.

deepclutch · 23rd April 2010, 10:48

What is the Criteria for Moving These Cities to BS-IV Norms ahead of Other Cities?Is it the Vehicle Concentration or the Pollution Level measured?

thanks

sgiitk · 23rd April 2010, 11:47

The ultimate criteria is a Supreme Court directive? I think the pollution was measured. The full list of the gang of 13 list is Delhi & NCR, Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune, Surat, Ahmedabad, Kanpur, Agra, Solapur and Lucknow.

What is exciting me is that now since all petrol will soon be 91RON (hopefully 95RON for Premium one day) under both BSIII and IV, somewhere the manufacturers should stop detuning their engines for India on the excuse of poor fuel. Of course the oil PSUs will have to do something about unofficial additives.

mpksuhas · 23rd April 2010, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgiitk

What is exciting me is that now since all petrol will soon be 91RON (hopefully 95RON for Premium one day) under both BSIII and IV, somewhere the manufacturers should stop detuning their engines for India on the excuse of poor fuel.

@Sgiitk : Can you please confirm what does 91RON means, is that the octane value ie mentioned by the number?

ajay2233 · 23rd April 2010, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

@Sgiitk : Can you please confirm what does 91RON means, is that the octane value ie mentioned by the number?

I too would like to know what 91RON means.

Bigzero · 26th April 2010, 23:19

Well I too am in a confused state, pulled between two conflicting situations ( i am very close to a purchase decision, and have completed all formalities for getting the vehicle ).

here is the dilemma:

- BSIII vehicle is available on short notice, and if i take it, i run into the problem of not being able to re-register if ( there is a decent chance ) I move into a different city. I would assume all of that depends upon how seriously the rule is enforced etc..

- I can order the BSIV model and be free from the reregistration hassle ( oh and of cleaner conscience too ) but I run the risk of running a BSIV diesel too often on BSIII or earlier fuel when I go for those drives out of the city ( i do it fairly frequently, and since I am buying a diesel , it could possibly go up as well. ). I have no clue about what long-term damages it can cause!

Confusion!

And I guess this will continue for some time as long as different part of the country has different norms and different qualities of fuel. The more expensive the car, the more your heartburn is going to be when you fill her up in one of those small pumps in that small town miles away from any BSIV city....

dadu · 27th April 2010, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajay2233

I too would like to know what 91RON means.

Its part of the Octane ratings, RON (Research Octane Number) and MON (Motor Octane Number).

In brief, RON is the measure of fuel for detonation (engine knocking) and MON is the measure of fuel behaviour under load conditions.

sgiitk · 27th April 2010, 16:22

@dadu: Correct.

What is interesting is that with 91RON there is no reason for the (very common) detuning of engines for low quality Indian petrol. I understand that Honda have been discouraging the use of Premium in their cars, and they do not seem to suffer for it.

When will someone wake up and take action against the oil PSUs for selling BS-II Petrol (XtraPremium, Speed, Power) in BS-IV cities?

BS-IV (and III) Premium should be 95RON minimum. After 1 June they will no longer have the fig leaf of BS-II left. Also, I heard that Speed97 has been off the market for some time, presumably pending the upgrade of Speed to 95RON. I do not think BS-V (or rather Euro V) demands a higher RON!

MutantX · 12th June 2010, 21:18

Hi Guys,

Just a query. Please do not jump on me if my query is incorrect/wrong.

A bit of known background:

Hyundai's Kappa engine, when it was launched was Euro 5 ready which means it is already future proof. It was initially buring the pre- BSIV era - Apr 2010 was assessed as BIII and marked the same in the RC Book/emission certificate. This is perfectly understandable since at that time no BS IV emission norms were available for rating.

I called up the Hyundai technical support guys and asked the difference between the Pre BSIV Kappa and the BSIV kappa. I was told that there is absolutly no difference since the Kappa is already Euro 5 ready.

Now my query: Would it be possible to get a pre-BS IV kappa engine recertified as BSIV standard engine/vehicle?

blackasta · 12th June 2010, 21:53

I guess the engine would pass the BS IV and BS V tests - but the car would still remain a BS III car due to manufacturing date.

longhorn · 14th June 2010, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MutantX

Hi Guys,

I called up the Hyundai technical support guys and asked the difference between the Pre BSIV Kappa and the BSIV kappa. I was told that there is absolutly no difference since the Kappa is already Euro 5 ready.

I don't buy that. How come the ARAI FE has suddenly increased to 19.8 kmpl if there is absolutely no change between the Pre BSIV Kappa and the current one. I don't think the fuel quality (BS 3 to BS 4) alone will lead to a huge FE jump. Moreover if the pre BS IV Kappas had similar FE, Hyundai would have left no stone unturned in marketing that.

mxx · 20th June 2010, 11:19

When do we get BS IV fuels outside of the 13 cities? Any deadlines?

What is the RON numbers for standard and premium BS IV petrol ?

22nd April 2010, 18:37	#62
shreeps BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 271 Thanked: 20 Times	Slightly OT, please excuse: Revisiting the question of what happens when fuel standards and engine standards dont match - I sent a mail to Maruti Suzuki with the following queries: I purchased my SX4 ZXi in January. I understand that this is a BSIV emissions compliant vehicle. I have some questions based on that: 1. If the engine of my car is based on BSIV norms, but the petrol available in India till April 1 2010 was of BSIII standards (atleast in Pune where I mostly drive and fill up - other places may still be BSII), will there be any problems to the engine due to using BSIII fuel till April 1? If yes, what problems can I expect and will these be covered under warranty? 2. Currently BSIV fuel is only available in the 13 designated metros. What will happen to the engine of the car if I need to go on a long trip to villages that do not have BSIV standard fuel? 3. Since after April 1, only BSIV compliant vehicles can be registered in the 13 metros, can I sell my vehicle in these metros now and will the RTO allow re-registration? 4. What kind of engine oil does Maruti Suzuki reccomend using in the SX4 VVT - Mineral or Semi Synthetic or Synthetic (of the appropriate grade)? Here's the reply I got: Thank you for visiting our website. We regret the inconvenience caused to you. We advice you to visit the nearest Maruti authorized workshop that would be able to help you. So much for Maruti's vaunted customer service. Can any of the gurus on the forum answer at least the first two questions
	() Thanks

23rd April 2010, 10:48	#65
deepclutch Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Muvattupuzha Posts: 1,165 Thanked: 162 Times	What is the Criteria for Moving These Cities to BS-IV Norms ahead of Other Cities?Is it the Vehicle Concentration or the Pollution Level measured? thanks
	() Thanks

23rd April 2010, 11:47	#66
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	The ultimate criteria is a Supreme Court directive? I think the pollution was measured. The full list of the gang of 13 list is Delhi & NCR, Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune, Surat, Ahmedabad, Kanpur, Agra, Solapur and Lucknow. What is exciting me is that now since all petrol will soon be 91RON (hopefully 95RON for Premium one day) under both BSIII and IV, somewhere the manufacturers should stop detuning their engines for India on the excuse of poor fuel. Of course the oil PSUs will have to do something about unofficial additives.
	() Thanks

26th April 2010, 23:19	#69
Bigzero BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 447 Thanked: 522 Times	Well I too am in a confused state, pulled between two conflicting situations ( i am very close to a purchase decision, and have completed all formalities for getting the vehicle ). here is the dilemma: - BSIII vehicle is available on short notice, and if i take it, i run into the problem of not being able to re-register if ( there is a decent chance ) I move into a different city. I would assume all of that depends upon how seriously the rule is enforced etc.. - I can order the BSIV model and be free from the reregistration hassle ( oh and of cleaner conscience too ) but I run the risk of running a BSIV diesel too often on BSIII or earlier fuel when I go for those drives out of the city ( i do it fairly frequently, and since I am buying a diesel , it could possibly go up as well. ). I have no clue about what long-term damages it can cause! Confusion! And I guess this will continue for some time as long as different part of the country has different norms and different qualities of fuel. The more expensive the car, the more your heartburn is going to be when you fill her up in one of those small pumps in that small town miles away from any BSIV city....
	() Thanks

27th April 2010, 16:22	#71
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	@dadu: Correct. What is interesting is that with 91RON there is no reason for the (very common) detuning of engines for low quality Indian petrol. I understand that Honda have been discouraging the use of Premium in their cars, and they do not seem to suffer for it. When will someone wake up and take action against the oil PSUs for selling BS-II Petrol (XtraPremium, Speed, Power) in BS-IV cities? BS-IV (and III) Premium should be 95RON minimum. After 1 June they will no longer have the fig leaf of BS-II left. Also, I heard that Speed97 has been off the market for some time, presumably pending the upgrade of Speed to 95RON. I do not think BS-V (or rather Euro V) demands a higher RON!
	() Thanks

12th June 2010, 21:18	#72
MutantX BHPian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Madras Posts: 868 Thanked: 93 Times View My Garage	Hyundai's Kappa Engine (Euro 5 ready) Hi Guys, Just a query. Please do not jump on me if my query is incorrect/wrong. A bit of known background: Hyundai's Kappa engine, when it was launched was Euro 5 ready which means it is already future proof. It was initially buring the pre- BSIV era - Apr 2010 was assessed as BIII and marked the same in the RC Book/emission certificate. This is perfectly understandable since at that time no BS IV emission norms were available for rating. I called up the Hyundai technical support guys and asked the difference between the Pre BSIV Kappa and the BSIV kappa. I was told that there is absolutly no difference since the Kappa is already Euro 5 ready. Now my query: Would it be possible to get a pre-BS IV kappa engine recertified as BSIV standard engine/vehicle?
	() Thanks

12th June 2010, 21:53	#73
blackasta Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: WB 26 Posts: 3,406 Thanked: 2,917 Times View My Garage	I guess the engine would pass the BS IV and BS V tests - but the car would still remain a BS III car due to manufacturing date.
	() Thanks

20th June 2010, 11:19	#75
mxx BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 761 Thanked: 267 Times	When do we get BS IV fuels outside of the 13 cities? Any deadlines? What is the RON numbers for standard and premium BS IV petrol ?
	() Thanks