[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by Blooming Flower

The strength of the stock bumper is questionable. The vehicle with the winch must have got a custom-made base-plate installed properly secured with the chassis. Otherwise, it may fail miserably during real-world operation.

I think the winch is mounted on the chassis extensions even for the 2015 re-style. Can you please check?

[abhikb]

Hello All,

My 2019 CRDe is making a weird noise from the front wheel area when turning left over a bump or pothole, the sound is more like metal to metal rubbing.

Have got the front suspension bushing and ball joints replaced few months back.

Kindly advise.

[Zooster]

Originally Posted by abhikb

Hello All,

My 2019 CRDe is making a weird noise from the front wheel area when turning left over a bump or pothole, the sound is more like metal to metal rubbing.

Have got the front suspension bushing and ball joints replaced few months back.

Kindly advise.

Is it like a thud sound or metal grinding sound?? Just checking as i had the similar issue at one point..

[abhikb]

Originally Posted by Zooster

Is it like a thud sound or metal grinding sound?? Just checking as i had the similar issue at one point..

It’s more of a metal grinding sound and comes only when the steering is turned to left and driven over potholes or bumps.

[Zooster]

Originally Posted by abhikb

It’s more of a metal grinding sound and comes only when the steering is turned to left and driven over potholes or bumps.

So i have the same issue just getting it fixed as we speak i have avoided doing it for this long cos the last time i was down the car was in the shop for over a week and they couldn't do it due to unavailibility of appointment for Chassis alignment place. So basically the have to take it to a chassis alignment place which has a robotic arm that will pull the chassis bracket back into place. This happened when i got too adventurous while off-roading. I'm not saying that the same has happened to you but its worth a check. I went to my regular mechanic first and he tightened everything and it seemed to disappear for a week after that i too it for a service to Goregaon Mahindra the service advisor there told me because i have big tyres this is a normal sound which i didn't buy. About 4000km after the damage i took it once to a guy in Mira road for some random thing and he discovered this. So needless to say im gonna stick with him for a long time..

[abhikb]

Originally Posted by Zooster

So i have the same issue just getting it fixed as we speak i have avoided doing it for this long cos the last time i was down the car was in the shop for over a week and they couldn't do it due to unavailibility of appointment for Chassis alignment place.

Hey buddy thanks for sharing the input, well in my case the left side hub was the culprit due to which it was causing the noise. As of now have got it greased and reinstalled back, can't do on purpose off roading but will come handy in case I am stuck simewhere. At close to 60k kms of running the hubs are bound to fail, I have got hold of a 30k kms used hub from a known's CRDe, will put it for now. Ultimately will switch to manual locking hubs in future as the OEM hubs are exorbitantly costly.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by abhikb

Hey buddy thanks for sharing the input, well in my case the left side hub was the culprit due to which it was causing the noise. As of now have got it greased and reinstalled back, can't do on purpose off roading but will come handy in case I am stuck simewhere. At close to 60k kms of running the hubs are bound to fail, I have got hold of a 30k kms used hub from a known's CRDe, will put it for now. Ultimately will switch to manual locking hubs in future as the OEM hubs are exorbitantly costly.

Dear Abhik,

The hubs are failing because you are using grease instead of ATF. Grease is not meant to be used on the hubs.
Mine has clocked close to 95K and the hubs are as good as new. Have oiled them thrice over the last 8 years.

[abhikb]

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Dear Abhik,

The hubs are failing because you are using grease instead of ATF. Grease is not meant to be used on the hubs.
Mine has clocked close to 95K and the hubs are as good as new. Have oiled them thrice over the last 8 years.

Hello Vaidyaji,

The last fix was done using ATF only (double checked with my guy), have got the left wheel hub replaced today with a lesser used hub from a friend’s CRDe. The existing replaced hub upon visual inspection looked fine however, hard to tell why was it causing an issue during OTR.

Let’s see how the new combination works. As of now the steering feels lighter like before, which was otherwise little hard ever since the hub started creating issues.

[Blooming Flower]

Interesting Findings While Working on The Thar CRDe.

We all know how Thar was conceived and created as an amalgamation of various components of MM540, Bolero, and Scorpio. Although on paper, Thar CRDe has a total of 3 face-lift models there exist many production variations since the beginning. E.g. Thar with or w/o factory-fitted AC, with or w/o auto-locking hub, with or w/o ABS (different from 1st Oct, 2019), with MLD without MLD (difference from 2015 F/L) etc. However, there are basically two distinct models of Thar CRDe, one is from 2010-15, and another from 2015-20. Also, in multiple media and ownership reviews, it’s been agreed that the 2015 model is merely a facelift of cosmetic changes with existing mechanicals (except MLD at the rear axle). But there are some major mechanical changes I discovered during the following sequence of events.

Let’s come to the point without digging much into recent history. Last week, I was travelling to Delhi for some work, which is about 80km distance from my place. After driving the first 50km on the highway the brake pedal travel increased a bit and it started to feel spongy. When I reached the destination the brake pedal was almost touching the floor and brake bite was occurring with distinctly two-step travel of the pedal. After checking the entire brake line for possible leakage, it was diagnosed that the master cylinder was the culprit. I was a bit taken aback by such a major failure in a car with less than 30k km on odo. Indeed, the weakest links in a master cylinder are a few rubber seals that may have gone bad!



Well, let’s change the master cylinder. The mechanic went to source the part in a prominent auto parts market in Delhi. As a common practice, he showed the stock M/cyl. and the seller assured us that he will source it within one hour from other suppliers. All that he needed to get a master cylinder of ‘Old Thar CRDe’. So, after waiting around 2.5 hours finally, the replacement part arrived. But the surprise was lurking before starting the fitment! The diameter of the M/cyl and the push rod slot of the primary piston didn’t match the booster. We inspected the replacement part minutely. Yes, it was different! Surprisingly both the master cylinder was Bosch make and carried the same part number by Bosch embossed on the body (M7102309)! As the time was almost past 9 pm and I had to return, I asked the mechanic to fit the stock M/cyl. and bleed the brake so that I can drive the car at a slow speed to reach home after all. The brake was biting albeit with a long and spongy pedal travel; my conviction was telling me at least the primary cylinder is working, maybe some rubber seal on the secondary piston is kaput causing this two-step behaviour of the brake pedal. I drove very slowly keeping sufficient distance from the vehicle in front and reached home safely. 80km without traffic (60 km of which is 4-6 lane highway) for 3 hours!

The same night I started studying the Mahindra parts catalogue in detail. And finally, after an ample amount of minute scrutiny, I found a few things.

• Mahindra uses Bosch-make master cylinders and booster assemblies for old gen Boleros, Scorpio and Thar.

• Basically, there exist three types of master cylinders by Bosch for Mahindra cars with the same part number embossed on them (M7102309), vide picture. The basic difference is the diameter of the cylinder. They are 23.81 mm, 25.40 mm and 26.99 mm.

• Mahindra OE and Bosch aftermarket parts are the same; only the internal part numberings by Mahindra and by Bosch differ for the same product.

• At least two of them have been used in a single vehicle alternately with minor facelifts.

• For Thar CRDe (2011-15), this is 25.40 mm and is common with Bolero 1st, 2nd Gen, Bolero Pickup, and camper. The part number by Mahindra is 0606AAB01480N Bosch is 0204712859 (with the reservoir) and 0204712869 (w/o the reservoir).

• For Thar CRDe non-ABS 2015 F/L model the part is exactly same with Scoprio 2.6 Slx (2006-2008) model (26.99 mm M/cyl). The part number by Bosch is 0204318029 and by Mahindra is 0607AA0820N.

• I also referred to the Bosch after-market brake parts catalogue to re-confirm whether the part is common with Scorpio 2.6 Slx. PDF shared as an attachment. Do search for T029 (short code for the same part). Yes! This is a common part!

Bosch Brake Components List.pdf

All is well as of now. I went to the local automobile market to source the part. No surprise that the local Mahindra showroom had not a single piece in their inventory, and they even confirmed it is not even available in nearby SVCs. They were also clueless about when to receive the part if I place an order with them. Also, it is imperative that they can’t sell the parts directly to the customer without opening a job card, and this will eventually prompt me to get the job done at their workshop paying a hefty price for labour. After all, I am not satisfied/confident with the workmanship of the Mahindra-authorized SVC so far from my previous service experience.

As usual, in the auto parts market, even the prominent retailer asks, “Master cylinder for which vehicle?” (Calling out the part number directly often doesn’t work with them). I knew saying Old Thar CRDe would make them more confused; instead, I asked for Scorpio 2.6. I got negative answers from all of them. One referred to another seller and this cycle went on for 10 times at least! Even one of them called the Bosch dealer (M/s Tulsi Lok) only to find a big NO again! Seeing me at my wit’s end, one seller promised to source it from Delhi, but he was unable to promise any timeline for delivery, and even mentioned I may have to pay over the MRP in case he manages to get it! I took their contact number and left the place. While I was about to return a big truck messed up the busy city traffic at the signal near the market and I had to take a u-turn. Finding a parking spot is difficult there, yet I was determined to scavenge the market once again. I parked a car a bit far and went on asking each shop in a row, one by one! After going through this searching ordeal for 2.5 hours there was some silver lining on the horizon. The owner of a small shop took me to the 1st floor (basically his storage area) and pointed me to a bunch of old Bosch and TVS Girling M/cyls. boxes parked at a corner. He himself went to search through the lot, and as I almost memorized the part number I shouted “Mil Gya”, and took out the old box (refer pic.) myself. It was the required M/cyl, from December 2017 batch. Well, it is completely out of the question to demand a part with a newer manufacturing date when the part is itself an endangered species according to the market scenario. I collected the part, few bottles of DOT4 brake oil, and went to the local mechanic for fitment.

(Thar used DOT3 brake and clutch fluid from the factory; I don’t know how much cost Mahindra saved through it while selling the Thar at a very high price than the cost involved in production and R&D combined. This high pricing factor was also repeatedly acknowledged in the forum by the father of Thar, late BD Sir himself)



While driving I was thinking this major mechanical change in the brake system has not been covered anywhere. In fact, the entire brake system along with the hand brake was changed in the 2015 F/L Thar. When the 2015 F/L model hit the market BD sir was no longer associated with Mahindra. Otherwise, I believe he would have pitched in somewhere in the forum.
This also made me recall umpteen complaints on poor braking from pre-F/L Thar owners and BD sir referring to Rajith from B’lore for improving the brake system. IIRC, Rajith also used a Scorpio tandem booster and master cyl. assembly and tweaked the LSPV setting to secure better braking performance. I have no idea whether this discussion caught the attention of the then Thar CRDe F/L development team, and perhaps, they silently implemented it without explicitly mentioning anything about this, unlike the MLD!

Till then, I hardly had any idea what surprise over surprise was waiting for me!

I asked the local mechanic just to change the master cyl. and bleed the brake as the diagnosis has already been done. He opened the stock master cyl and tallied it with the one I brought. He exclaimed ‘Ditto’! I was just waiting for the job to be over within 30 min. After 45 mins, I found the head mechanic and his assistants struggling to fit the brake tubings to the M/cyl. I stopped them and asked not to force-fit the tubes lest the threads get damaged beyond repair. I asked them to unbolt the newly fitted M.cyl from the brake booster. I took two of them side by side and tried to find differences. They were looking the same, bearing the same part number. I measured the dia. with vernier callipers, and they were exactly matching. Thereafter, I inspected the tubing fitment holes with my mobile flashlight! Voila. The stock one needs convex tubing fitment while the one I brought needs concave tubing!



Let me highlight a few facts about standard brake tube flares.

There are two types of standard brake-pipe flares. One is known as ‘double’ flare (SAE standard), and another is ‘bubble’ type, aka (ISO/DIN std.) Thar CRDe uses the ‘bubble’ type brake line flare. I was baffled by the fact that with the same part number Mahindra/Bosch used two different standards of fitment!



Again, went to the market and after much effort sourced two pieces of brake tubes with ‘double’ flare end fitments. But what I need to have is something else that no standard hose/ brake tube manufacturer will do ever! For the fitment with the new M.cyl I needed a ‘double’ flare at the M.Cyl side and a ‘bubble’ flare at the brake line wheel-splitter side.

This can be achieved in two ways--

1. Get a roll of 3/16” brake tubing of sufficient length and make the required flare at the ends using a flaring tool.

2. Take two different end fitments and join them with the tube by brazing.

Although any sane brain would have preferred the first one for neater and cleaner execution, I had no choice other than going with the second one due to a lack of resources to execute the first one in my city.

Okay. It was almost evening time by then and sourcing a welder may be difficult after that. I myself went to a known welder without delaying a minute and asked him to cut a single stock tubing to get two ‘bubble’ flare end fitments and braze each one of them at the end of the newly sourced tube. Once it cooled down, I checked for any possible leakage in both pipes by blowing through them and holding another end with a finger. All seems to hold well as of now!



I came back to the mechanic and asked him to fit those ASAP and bleed the brake. The bleeding at the M/Cyl and all 4 wheels’ ends consumed almost 1L of DOT4 oil. Finally, the brake was working as usual with a proper pedal response. Ordeal over!

That night I myself executed a teardown of the old M/Cyl and my conviction came true. A single rubber seal on the secondary piston was worn out causing all the drama! I cleaned the inside of the M/cyl and observed no such scratches to discard it completely. Now, I am in the process of sourcing a repair kit to keep it as a working spare.



However, sourcing the right kit is very difficult. M/Cyl repair kits are of 3 types viz.

1. Only rubber seals and O-rings
2. Minor repair kit (contains rings, locks, and the primary piston)
3. Major repair kit (contains primary, and secondary pistons and all the rubber kits and locks).

So, either I need to source 1 or 3 to repair the old M.Cyl. The cost of the third is more than 75% of the entire M/Cyl price. So, going with the 1 will be the most VFM option to repair while sourcing the first one is a gamble!

After all these findings, only one question comes to my mind—Why Mahindra why? Why so many variables and no standardization? At the end of the day, the brunt is borne by the customer only! Why is no steady inventory maintained at the dealer level too?

Recently, while going through Thar 2020 review thread I noticed a few members expressing how Mahindra is an ever-evolving company implementing smaller changes (not always positive, e.g. deleting a few existing features) to the vehicles with the passage of time. Link (Mahindra Thar : Official Review). Well, it is not a great engineering example to follow so many standards for a single vehicle. Although it can be termed continual improvement in the field of engineering, sometimes it is not welcome!

Mahindra must not take their customers for a ride; nor all customers can, or have the time to delve deeper into such a level to get the work done. We love jeeps, we love Mahindra cars. But the niggles, and the trauma of executing proper repair work are immense to dent the love for sure.

P.S. The F/L Thar CRDe had some faulty fuel gauge (sender unit) issues. Mahindra never recalled the affected vehicles; rather those who raised a complaint regarding this were given a free replacement. This issue was covered in the automobile media back at that time. Link. The same problem cropped up with my Thar, of late. The needle was always hovering around the halfway mark giving wrong readings of fuel quantity. I had a really hard time sourcing an OE fuel sender unit for Thar CRDe.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by Blooming Flower

In fact, the entire brake system along with the hand brake was changed in the 2015 F/L Thar. When the 2015 F/L model hit the market BD sir was no longer associated with Mahindra. Otherwise, I believe he would have pitched in somewhere in the forum.
[/i]

Wasn't it possible to change the whole brake system to the upgraded Scorpio 2.6?
That would have given you better brakes also I believe.

[Blooming Flower]

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Wasn't it possible to change the whole brake system to the upgraded Scorpio 2.6?
That would have given you better brakes also I believe.

The entire braking system of F/L Thar post-2015 is of Scorpio 2.6 Slx. This includes all the non-friction and friction components viz. the Tandem 9" booster, 26.99mm M/Cyl, slave cylinder, twin pot callipers, brake pads, LSPV etc., except the brake tubings length and bents for obvious reasons. They are pretty much interchangeable with each other. I never faced poor braking issues in my F/L Thar CRDe with a proper LSPV setting. (Yes, I changed it according to my need after installing a customized suspension at the rear).

Mostly, the 'poor braking' complaints were from the owners of pre-facelift Thar CRDe; the technical reason already is partially depicted in my previous post. Even the ABS-equipped Thar CRDe, post-2019 used the same ABS unit from Scorpio only. Mahindra provided an extra ABS switch on the top right corner of the dashboard. And needless to say, the ABS models of Thar CRDe didn't have an LSPV either.

My concern (read frustration) was with the change in standards adopted for a single part. I know there may be an n-number of ECNs (Engineering Change Notice) in a running model and an OEM no way should make those internal ECNs public. But, at least, the components with a 'higher severity' rating undergoing some ECNs must be assigned a different part number for easy identification.

Moreover, an OEM should offer as many as possible child parts and sub-components to make a vehicle service-friendly in a cost-effective manner.

Let's take an example of the broken glass of a modern electrically adjustable ORVM with an integrated turn signal and a camera for 360 deg vision. Will a customer be happy to change only the mirror glass or the entire mirror set burning a hole in the pocket?

It is really the choice and philosophy of the OEMs how to integrate multiple sub-component into a single part for their ease of work. I know some manufacturers even integrating fuel float sensors with the fuel pump to reduce the number of parts. But you know, in case of replacement/repair/service who is affected!

[zalaps]

Originally Posted by Blooming Flower

Interesting Findings While Working on The Thar CRDe.

After all these findings, only one question comes to my mind—Why Mahindra why? Why so many variables and no standardization? At the end of the day, the brunt is borne by the customer only! Why is no steady inventory maintained at the dealer level too?

Big thanks. I own 2013 model.

Have gone through same ordeal as you, barring following differences,
- I was never able to discover(till date) master cylinders are different. Now I understand why rear drums are not having any bite. Disks work OK but then bite comes very late so managing braking by judging & preempting traffic. I've visited local dealership in Ahmedabad. They simply denied to work on car. FNG are also clueless. I've witnessed them bleeding brakes endlessly and then giving it up.

- Hand brake cable - Not able to get cable set for Hand brake in any Ahmedabad dealer as well local parts shops. My jeep is running with out hand brake since last 3 years now.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Blooming Flower

[b][u]Interesting Findings While Working on The Thar CRDe.
Recently, while going through Thar 2020 review thread I noticed a few members expressing how Mahindra is an ever-evolving company implementing smaller changes (not always positive, e.g. deleting a few existing features) to the vehicles with the passage of time.
Well, it is not a great engineering example to follow so many standards for a single vehicle. Although it can be termed continual improvement in the field of engineering, sometimes it is not welcome!

Mahindra must not take their customers for a ride; nor all customers can, or have the time to delve deeper into such a level to get the work done. We love jeeps, we love Mahindra cars. But the niggles, and the trauma of executing proper repair work are immense to dent the love for sure..[/i]

Originally Posted by Blooming Flower

The entire braking system of F/L Thar post-2015 is of Scorpio 2.6 Slx. This includes all the non-friction and friction components viz. the Tandem 9" booster, 26.99mm M/Cyl, slave cylinder, twin pot callipers, brake pads, LSPV etc.,
My concern (read frustration) was with the change in standards adopted for a single part. I know there may be an n-number of ECNs (Engineering Change Notice) in a running model and an OEM no way should make those internal ECNs public. But, at least, the components with a 'higher severity' rating undergoing some ECNs must be assigned a different part number for easy identification.

Moreover, an OEM should offer as many as possible child parts and sub-components to make a vehicle service-friendly in a cost-effective manner.

But you know, in case of replacement/repair/service who is affected!

These are fantastic and detailed posts and insights.
Thank you for sharing. This is phenomenal learning.

1. OEMs should offer child parts and not only restrict consumers by offering the entire assembly and thus cause them to spend unnecessarily.
(Elsewhere on the forum Ive described what the Great Lords and the BMW India dealership said when I went to ask them for ‘Transmission Fluid Filter and magnets for my Mini. (A part which is freely available from multiple OEM and OES partners across various sites in the US and EU.)

2. Absolutely right that a part which has undergone a change/ improvement should have a new number or at least a new version number. And what you have outlined shows that there is no ‘version control’ to speak of.

I think that Mr Blooming Flower’s posts are superb and if anyone has a direct connect to ‘Important Persons’ at Mahindra, they should bring these facts to their attention. I am sure that people like Mr Veluswamy of Mahindra, will take such feedback and act upon it too.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by zalaps

Now I understand why rear drums are not having any bite. Disks work OK but then bite comes very late so managing braking by judging & preempting traffic.

- Hand brake cable - Not able to get cable set for Hand brake in any Ahmedabad dealer as well local parts shops.

For the poor brake bite at rear, did you adjust the LSPV? The spring has to be detached before putting the vehicle on a lift as that tends to stretch the spring. Many of the workshops do not care for this including the ASCs, resulting in brake imbalance.

For the handbrake, I see it is readily available on Boodmo. Please check
https://boodmo.com/catalog/part-cabl...SABEgKo9_D_BwE

[swami69]

Originally Posted by zalaps

Big thanks. I own 2013 model.

- Hand brake cable - Not able to get cable set for Hand brake in any Ahmedabad dealer as well local parts shops. My jeep is running with out hand brake since last 3 years now.

Surprising that they are unable to get the Hand Brake Cable. I just got it replaced at Chennai dealer as a running repair during April on my Thar Crde. They just had it in store and got it replaced quick. Check with your dealer once again as definitely you will need it, how effective it is, is another question

Mine is 2015 Facelift model, could the cable be different ?

Swami