[thirdmainroad]

Many of you seem to be taking the view that I was only impressed because of the fact that two white executives were found by me inspecting tyres.

That is strongly not the case. I have lived abroad, have a lot of good friends from different ethnicities, run businesses that deal predominantly in markets abroad, and have no special affinity or excitement in meeting and greeting white folks.

I am very social, and would have definitely picked a conversation if I had found anyone - of any race or colour prodding around like how I found these two.

I was impressed because these two were the top executives of the biggest tyre manufacturer in the world, and one of them the Director of Quality, Michelin International. The fact that he was spending days in India dedicated to visiting even small Michelin shops across the sub continent truly impressed me and I am, again quite sure that none of his comparable ranking from Indian houses would have done the same - instead would have chosen to send lower level executives to undertake research like this. I think its just a very Indian thing we have - where we feel its too low to do certain things - like looking down on young people earning money by acting as delivery agents or working in cafes or cleaning our own toilets, for example, where as people from other nationalities do not think this is below a persons calibre or caste or whatever and this thinking reflects in business ethics and undertaking.

To add on, I was big fan of MRF before I had made the switch to Michelin and other brands. I was and am a firm believer in Make In India etc., and used to think MRF were fantastic tyres. You don't know what you are missing until you find out there is something better. Like for example, how many of us know that one of the greatest collections of medieval art on earth is in the ill-maintained bronze gallery of the Madras Museum? Many of us will spend our entire lives not knowing what we are missing by not visiting the gallery because we don't know what we are missing!

A good friend of mine, a top rally driver, Vikram Mathias once persuaded me to go the Michelin way when I was going to put on some Yokos. Even though I then complained that they were so much more pricy and wouldn't think any advantage would justify the higher price, after changing to Michelins and experiencing them - theres been no looking back. This was way before I met these two folks. I was already a big fan of Michelins based on my experience having driven 10s of 1000s of km on them and on other brands. Meeting these two boys doing what they were doing really made me understand why Micheilns are - what I firmly think, the best tyres out there.

I drive a LOT. I used to run a tour company that offered self driven tours across the Indian sub continent - operating in South India, Rajasthan, and the Himalayas. I used to go on almost every tour and would clock over 60000 kms every year. And even though I exited from the tours, I still drive a lot - having factories far away from where I am based at and also just because I am addicted to long trips. So I do have considerable driving experience.

Many of you are also complaining that Michelins seem to be cracking early. Harder compound tyres like MRF should crack earlier, and even if not, I think since tyres play such a huge part in road safety, one should replace them, regardless of how many km clocked or tyre wear left in 4/5 years. They are not designed to last for ever. If you are running 20000-30000 km in 4/5 years, Michelins are not for you and you do not need to invest in high performance tyres. If you are going to be clocking 20/30 k KM a year, then its Michelins or bust!

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

The original post was actually misleading and wanted people to believe that Indian brands like MRF and Apollo are far inferior to Michelin’s which is clearly not the case.

I firmly believe that Michelins are LEAGUES better and MRF and Apollo are FAR inferior. This has nothing to do with Indian vs foreign brands per se - just the fact that Michelin are in a better position to have more money to funnel in to their R and D, also noting that the Michelins are close to double the price of comparable MRFs and Apollos. Quality does come with a price.

And I do not think any cab driver, due respect to them, is going to know about Michelins even though they drive 10000000s of kms, because their focus is different.

[RoarOnRoad]

Disclaimer: I am the owner of an MRF T&S so please pardon my bias (pun intended).

I would like to add my thoughts to this thread which might complete the picture somewhat.

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

I doubt any local manufactures like Apollo or MRF has ever bothered to be poking around tyre shops in India getting feedback and would instead send low level interns or such - but here on the other hand..

Product Managers are supposed to gather feedback from the market. Any person with a hands-on approach can be found in the market. You'd be surprised with the attention to detail MRF pays to products and consumer feedback(similar for Apollo & BKT).Great managers help build great products. Period. And there's a reason companies have low level interns. Time is money.

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

I do believe you are wrong by saying harder compound tyres in general will out last softer compounds. Fact is that Michelins will not only out last MRFs - but they will by a HUGE margin, close to if not over 2 times. Many people will attest to this.

Incorrect, Harder compounds are more resistant to wear than softer compounds.
Michelin out-running an MRF(or Apollo/Bridgestone(regular ones)) would happen 1/10 times. But a Michelin out-lasting the rest would happen...umm never seen it happen in 8 years, but my best guess would be almost never. Michelins have a peculiar problem as pointed in the below quoted thread

Originally Posted by kadanaJ

The Michelin's I owned developed cracks on the sidewall very prematurely. At least premature in terms of kilometres (was on a low running car. It did 20,000km over 5 years).

The reason somehow is uncertain as hard compound should be more prone to chipping yet only Michelin exhibits such behaviour and no other brand does. And tread chipping might also be attributed to excessive lateral road force while cornering yet it has no correlation with chauffeur driven sedans replacing tyres every 30-40k kms or so. And a google search for "tread chipping" shall bring up results worldwide so it is not India's weather. That being said, one's best bet with Michelin is to put it through the grind within 3 years. Beyond that, it is pure luck. MRF/Bridgestone would easily do 6 or more years.

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

Also, does any one else offer 5-8 year warranties in tyres? Not sure. I think most others offer 3 year warranties - if that.

MRF offers 6 years. https://www.mrftyres.com/warranty-policy though they adjust claims upto more than that on case to case basis.
Bridgestone & Apollo offer 5 years.

Anyway, what I am trying to say really is that Michelins are the no 1 car brand in the world re sales figures, and that they do spend a HUGE amount on R and D, and just by the fact they sell the most tyres - they are an extremely rich company and can afford to put in much more money on R and D than many others. And this IMO, makes them a safe and sound bet.

MRF invests decent money in R&D as compared to other Indian brands.

I also think that any brand with an F1 presence is a good bet when it comes to motoring- the technology and research employed there should trickle down to every product.

MRF ZLOs(now slowly being replaced by Perfinza across high end sizes) are the trickle down effect of Formula Racing. No other Indian company has motorsports offerings. MRF after leading India's motorsports over decades is now currently a trailblazer in Rallying's biggest arena, Europe. They even have beaten Pirelli sponsored teams in Italy. MRF has a dedicated Motorsports team.

I do think its a bit of a joke if anyone tries to argue that MRFs and Apollos are as good as Michelins. They are most definitely not IMO. But they are much cheaper. But again, Michelin for the win, cos they are going to out last the others by a 100% margin!

Michelin is an excellent product but tyre industry rewards the one with diverse offerings and Michelin is not an overall winner. Also, they are reluctant to setup manufacturing in India which may mean that they lack the confidence to become a full spectrum player in the Indian Tyre Industry.

Originally Posted by LaRoca

While working for KBR in Dubai, I sourced MRFs for our Tanker Trailer Fleet operating in Iraq, not once but twice. None of them lasted long like our Michelins or Bridgestone's do. Thereafter I never bothered with any Indian brand. If Indian Tires are so good why aren't they popular in the Middle East?

Point is we must learn to accept where we are. We do not have the same level of R&D like other top international brands do. It doesn't matter if the compound is soft or hard, MRFs perform poorly in the roads of the Middle East.

The Middle East doesn't have import restrictions like India so Chinese brands have much larger market share, therefore cost factors don't favour Indian companies. However, Apollo and MRF are both neck to neck in terms of good quality TBR. What variants were you using for Tanker Trailer? S3K4 or S3P4? S3P4 is industry's stalwart when it comes to high mileage for normal load operations. And MRF's Bias tyres are much sought after in other countries for their excellent durability and resistance to road & load abuse.

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

I firmly believe that Michelins are LEAGUES better and MRF and Apollo are FAR inferior. This has nothing to do with Indian vs foreign brands per se - just the fact that Michelin are in a better position to have more money to funnel in to their R and D, also noting that the Michelins are close to double the price of comparable MRFs and Apollos. Quality does come with a price.

I hope you see the logic of something being leagues better than their counterparts without proper statistics.

And I do not think any cab driver, due respect to them, is going to know about Michelins even though they drive 10000000s of kms, because their focus is different.

So I will end my post with the following:

A Maruti Ertiga with stock MRF 185/65R15 ZVTVs & 134690 kms on the Odo for first set change. (Tread wear of old set was about 90%)
A Maruti Dzire with stock MRF 165/80R14 ZV2K & 143730 kms on the Odo for the first set change.(Tread wear of old set was about 70% as the tyres were reclaimed under warranty for about 70% of the new tyre cost on prorata basis). The argument that you have given that you drive a LOT and hence are more qualified to comment on the choices of a cab driver who is not going to know about Michelins doesn't hold water in real life.
I am sorry about the long post and am open to counterviews and feedback.

[ABHI_1512]

^^

Many thanks RoarOnRoad for your inputs. I hope it helps in better understanding for what we have been saying all along this thread

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

I firmly believe that Michelins are LEAGUES better and MRF and Apollo are FAR inferior. This has nothing to do with Indian vs foreign brands per se - just the fact that Michelin are in a better position to have more money to funnel in to their R and D, also noting that the Michelins are close to double the price of comparable MRFs and Apollos. Quality does come with a price.

There, you should have clearly mentioned in the original post that you are talking through your belief about Michelin’s instead of facts. Changing stances doesn’t help since we are discussing the merits of the original post !!

P.S- When quoting, please quote the entire post in entirety. Cherry picking some lines from the post and establishing a narrative doesn’t help.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by RoarOnRoad

A Maruti Ertiga with stock MRF 185/65R15 ZVTVs & 134690 kms on the Odo for first set change. (Tread wear of old set was about 90%)
A Maruti Dzire with stock MRF 165/80R14 ZV2K & 143730 kms on the Odo for the first set change.(Tread wear of old set was about 70% as the tyres were reclaimed under warranty for about 70% of the new tyre cost on prorata basis). The argument that you have given that you drive a LOT and hence are more qualified to comment on the choices of a cab driver who is not going to know about Michelins doesn't hold water in real life.
I am sorry about the long post and am open to counterviews and feedback.

Recently I was driving a Bolero and it's clutch was a little harder than usual , so I looked at the Odometer - 2.5L kms, stock clutch.

There is a natural bias among people for Domestic vs Imported things, at times the advantages are hardly relevant for our conditions, nevertheless your post reaffirms my belief that domestic tire brands have come a long way, my experience with utility vehicle tires are very much in line with it.

As you said I noticed thread chipping on the edges after our UV was thrashed on the hill roads with relatively higher cornering speeds and load on an AT thread pattern but no such issues on an HT thread pattern on the same roads. This also means that the recommended tyre (HT) as per the OEM is going to deliver more miles between replacements.

[Hayek]

I do find all the statements about people using tyres for 90,000 km or 6-8 years in this thread strange beyond belief. I hope the members realise that they are risking the lives of themselves and their loved ones - I can’t think of a single brand of tyre designed to last 6 years or even 60,000 kms. Tread depth is NOT the only parameter which affects the safety of tyres.

I personally have always replaced tyres within 4-5 years (or sooner) and definitely after having driven ~ 40,000 kms. Have used various brands over the years - stock JKs on my Maruti Zen, Bridgestones on the Zen and Honda City, stock Goodyears followed by Michelin P3STs on my Superb, Apollos followed by Yokohama Earth1s on my Vento, Pirelli RFTs on my X3, and Hankooks on my Tiguan. Without a minute’s hesitation, I can say that the Michelin P3STs were the best tyres I have ever used, in terms of ride quality, grip and overall feel. I would have picked Michelins as the replacement tyre for both the Vento and the X3, but they were not available when I was in the market for them. As an aside, the Earth 1s were also very good - both these were very clear upgrades relative to the stock tyres on the Superb and the Vento.

Is Michelin the only tyre I would ever use? Clearly no. But is it the best tyre money can buy at least in the mid segment - I think yes.

[sanchari]

Originally Posted by Hayek

I do find all the statements about people using tyres for 90,000 km or 6-8 years in this thread strange beyond belief. I hope the members realise that they are risking the lives of themselves and their loved ones - I can’t think of a single brand of tyre designed to last 6 years or even 60,000 kms. Tread depth is NOT the only parameter which affects the safety of tyres.
...

In other countries, there are multiple tires that are offered with 60k-70k miles (not kms) tread life. So 60-70k kms in India shouldn't be that big of a surprise. For e.g., sharing one link for Cooper tires which is a budget tire, offers 65k miles treadwear warranty.

https://coopertire.com/en-us/find-ti...evolution-tour

If most of driving is within city and roads are moderately ok, no reason why some tires shouldn't last long

[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by RoarOnRoad

Michelin is an excellent product but tyre industry rewards the one with diverse offerings and Michelin is not an overall winner. Also, they are reluctant to setup manufacturing in India which may mean that they lack the confidence to become a full spectrum player in the Indian Tyre Industry.

To save on space, cutting on your quote.

Product managers/interns to collect information: This is what I am exactly pointing out, really. MRF and the likes, in their value for money, would in most probability, deploy interns and the like, taking into account that Time is money to research something like this. But Michelin, in its wisdom, had the DIRECTOR OF QUALITY himself checking.

I

Originally Posted by RoarOnRoad

Incorrect, Harder compounds are more resistant to wear than softer compounds.
Michelin out-running an MRF(or Apollo/Bridgestone(regular ones)) would happen 1/10 times. But a Michelin out-lasting the rest would happen...umm never seen it happen in 8 years, but my best guess would be almost never. Michelins have a peculiar problem as pointed in the below quoted thread

You, in my belief, are going to be offering very bad and perhaps even life threatening "advice" to your customers. You seem to be implying that MRFs, let alone Michelins can run 1.3 k kms.

Originally Posted by RoarOnRoad

Michelin is an excellent product but tyre industry rewards the one with diverse offerings and Michelin is not an overall winner. Also, they are reluctant to setup manufacturing in India which may mean that they lack the confidence to become a full spectrum player in the Indian Tyre Industry.

Maybe that's also because of the way this country functions? With all its red tape and corruption - a clean and honest company cannot set up business or survive - like Virgin Mobile?

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[sanchari]

Unfortunately, some people are taking their personal experience and touting it as fact. There is a difference between anecdotal evidence and data backed evidence.

I hope the thread starter shares some documentation by any testing agency which backs up their claims. Otherwise its just one other opinion no different from others on the thread. There are multiple people on this thread who have been disappointed with Michelins. That's their experience and they are entitled to it.

But to diss every other brand and claim their experience and their belief is fact will just result in clash of opinions. Different tyres will be optimal in different situations, different vehicles, different climate, operating conditions and different driving styles. Of course, one can be a fanboy and stick to their preferred brand. But no need to impose that belief on others or make personal attacks because it goes against their favourite brand.

[RoarOnRoad]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

Product managers/interns to collect information: This is what I am exactly pointing out, really. MRF and the like, in their value for money, would in most probability, deploy interns and the like, taking into account that Time is money to research something like this. But Michelin, in its wisdom, had the DIRECTOR OF QUALITY himself checking.

MRF's Sr. GM Passenger Products regularly visits MRF dealers without disclosing who they are. They go about their jobs in the most discreet manner. And I'm not sure what data a Director of Quality is gathering from a multi brand outlet. It may be an incidental visit since Michelin TBR plant is in TN, and it doesn't necessarily mean it was directly related to his work.

You, in my belief, are going to be offering very bad and perhaps even life threatening "advice" to your customers. You seem to be implying that MRFs, let alone Michelins can run 1.3 k kms.

It's okay. The upside of running an MRF store is that we don't give such advice, the products speak for themselves. [quote]

Maybe that's also because of the way this country functions? With all its red tape and corruption - a clean and honest company cannot set up business or survive - like Virgin Mobile?

The country works quite well. Worldwide, Goodyear/Bridgestone/Michelin/Dunlop make aircraft tyres for civil aviation. MRF now supplies Fighter and Helicopter tyres to Indian Air Force. We also supply tyres for all defence equipment ie. SAMs, Radars, Missile Platforms, etc. I have supplied Artillery guns tyres to Indian Army through my business. I have exported to Europe, with each tyre costing 2500 USD.

BKT is another darkhorse in the OTR segment supplying Large OTR radials globally with rim sizes upto 57" competing against Goodyear, Bridgestone & Michelin.

Probably, Michelin needs to put their money where their mouth is. And for Red Tape and corruption, it was same for Renault, Schneider Electric, Saint-Gobain and in the tyre industry for Bridgestone. A clean and honest company needs to generate revenue to survive and India is one unforgiving market. Only the resilient ones survive, ask Hyundai what it takes.

[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by RoarOnRoad

ask Hyundai what it takes.

That is enough to rest my case. Bad engineering and everything else but will sell in India like hot cakes.

[V.Narayan]

Dear @thethirdmainroad,

Thank you for sharing your experience with Michelin tyres. Several readers will quite possibly find your inputs useful. One thing I've learnt (7th decade of life and counting) is to never say never. Times change, circumstances change, products change, our knowledge changes, our needs change ... and never simply does not happen. Simply does not happen even with two lovers. So enjoy your preference for the brand, certainly it is a top class brand and share your experiences with us. Sometimes getting to know the senior executives of a brand can, and does, have a halo effect on us. It certainly has on me with reference to the two brands of cars I own. But still never say never. All the best. Enjoy the ride your new tyres offer.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

That is enough to rest my case. Bad engineering and everything else but will sell in India like hot cakes.

I'm still unable to fathom what exactly is your case?

You've made statements that Michelin will outlast MRF's and Apollo's by 2 X. We've asked you to share data to buttress your claims. There's been none.

IMO, you're someone who is very happy with his Michelin tyres and thats cool. But to diss all other brands only cos 2 white head honchos were doing a market visit in chennai (something as routine as sleeping or eating), well thats a bit too much.

[am1m]

I guess there are a few different ways to prove a certain product or service is superior to the competition:

1. Data/real-world comparisons with a large enough sample set (not just anecdotal evidence or brand aura).
2. By showcasing the good things about the brand without bad-mouthing the competition.
3. By appealing to emotion and constantly bad-mouthing the competition and leading to inevitable polarizing, reduce all arguments to 'us vs them'. (It has to be said- a classic tactic for social media promotions.)

Sadly from politics to tyres, we seem to be stuck at number 3!

[Abhinav1586]

I have used Apollo Apterra on my XUV500 for close to 58k km's which was a mix of Highway (30%) and city (70%) driving. The types still had around 5k km's worth life in them but since I had to go on a highway trip to my hometown and back I decided to change.

The dealer suggested Michelin LTX force and I don't regret my decision to purchase them. I can see a huge improvement in road grip and also reduction in road noise. They look chunkier too..!! My other cheetah XUV300 has just done 20k km's so don't want to upgrade them yet from stock MRF Wanderers. But definitely will get another set of Michelin for XUV300 too when needed!!

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

I'm still unable to fathom what exactly is your case?

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

That is enough to rest my case. Bad engineering and everything else but will sell in India like hot cakes.

I second @Lalvaz's question - what exactly is your case?

That you had a good run of Michelin tires on your car(s) and in a one-off case you met two senior leadership gentlemen in a multi-brand outlet doing a random check?

Facts work here - not beliefs or views. Dig through the forum long term ownership threads, and one'll find enough excellent and exceedingly bad experiences of all brands. The owners of those threads would have extremely diverging views of the tire brands they used and no matter the amount of literature without clear facts you throw at them, their opinions are not going to change. Without facts, you are just one more voice like theirs. Nothing wrong about it, but it's just a single person's view, one of many on either sides.

--------------------------------------

Btw we in this forum seriously push for transparency and sharing. The email ID of the Michelin Quality Director that you were suggesting to @saket77 via PM - I'd strongly recommend to share on this thread - many Michelin owners would benefit from it, assuming the director is really interested in helping owners on their problem cases (wrt Michelin tires failures). His response(s) to such owners would help quantify some of the positive views you were suggesting with regards to their focus on quality.