[john a milne]

Originally Posted by DKG

John as you may have gleaned through the posts the real intention is to improve the sport through standards, as has been followed to brilliant results elsewhere in the world.

My friends here in Hyderabad seem to agree that we could slowly introduce the rating system so there is not just some system to judging but one that will help owners improve their cars over the years.

I quite agree as most of the enthusiasts are just having a good time, enjoying their chariots and having the opportunity of showing them off and meeting other enthusiasts at the various shows, rallies and concours. For a select few, it has become a very serious involvement and approached with a high degree of competitiveness.

The Calcutta Statesman Rally offers a venue for both, and while our judging guidelines are not as detailed as they could be, particularly for those new judges who don't have either the background or judging experience.

We have tried to recognize and encourage those who have made an effort to restore their cars as well as possible, and to prepare the cars properly with attention to detailing their cars. Lots of encouragement is offered by the judges to help them improve their cars each year.

When deliberating on the awarding of the trophies, Bigger is not necessarily Better and to encourage the smaller collectors who often are dominated by the big collectors. It seems that their are always a few competitors who are unhappy with the awards, but this is the nature of those serious competitors.

Brian from JCNA is going to email me the scoring sheets which I will forward on to you. A good reference what with their two level system; Driven and Championship Classes, that they have developed over the years to meet the needs of the club members. We have found that many who have entered the Driven Class, get the Bug, and move up to Championship Class.

The other equally important issue is finding good, knowledgeable and
unbiased Judges. The JCNA have a very comprehensive section on this.

Recognizing that here in India, we are just starting to put the pieces together and acknowledge the reality at this time. As you pointed out, we have to set a Standard to work towards and ensure that we create activities that increases the level of participation and excellence.

It's a long journey, but the first steps have been taken with a sense of where and how we would like to go.

[john a milne]

I might suggest you rename this thread;
"Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours"

It should draw more input.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by john a milne

It's a long journey, but the first steps have been taken with a sense of where and how we would like to go.

I already notice some very high quality restorations popping up every now and then. I was stunned to see the 41 Buick at the Cartier show. That car looked like it was brand new. Simply amazing.

Ofcourse I am no expert to judge a car but I do recognise the need for a formal standard commonly accepted and worked toward.

With your years of experience in the field and hopefully more inputs from knowledgeable and experienced collectors/restorers a slow consensus can emerge and actually result in standards applied that in years will no doubt improve the overall condition of cars in India.

Thanks for all the effort you make John. Its heartening to see another passionate enthusiast sharing freely from his experiences.

[morris1948]

Dear Dkg a very informative thread , it will be a very helpfull guideline to all the restores who will strive to achive a 100 point restoration. Just a few doubts , i feel that wherever nickle plating was used it should be nickle plated and not chromed and points should certainly be deducted if it is not the correct finish.The nickle finish gives the car that correct period look though it is a terrible thing to keep the nickle plating gleaming, as it tends to get dull with the pollution in our enviornment. Am currently restoring a 34 Graham and am happy and proud to say that it is going to turn up with a very few minus points.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by morris1948

Dear Dkg a very informative thread , it will be a very helpfull guideline to all the restores who will strive to achive a 100 point restoration. Just a few doubts , i feel that wherever nickle plating was used it should be nickle plated and not chromed and points should certainly be deducted if it is not the correct finish.The nickle finish gives the car that correct period look though it is a terrible thing to keep the nickle plating gleaming, as it tends to get dull with the pollution in our enviornment. Am currently restoring a 34 Graham and am happy and proud to say that it is going to turn up with a very few minus points.

Welcome aboard Sir.
Any other contributions from you will also be very welcome, we must update and improve this list continuously. The Graham sounds interesting, looking forward to its completion.

[President]

Originally Posted by morris1948

Dear Dkg a very informative thread , it will be a very helpfull guideline to all the restores who will strive to achive a 100 point restoration. Just a few doubts , i feel that wherever nickle plating was used it should be nickle plated and not chromed and points should certainly be deducted if it is not the correct finish.The nickle finish gives the car that correct period look though it is a terrible thing to keep the nickle plating gleaming, as it tends to get dull with the pollution in our enviornment. Am currently restoring a 34 Graham and am happy and proud to say that it is going to turn up with a very few minus points.

Welcome Sir!
It is a pleasure to have you with us on board team-bhp. Looking forward to your comments and useful tips to help us restore our beauties to pristine ORIGINAL condition. This thread will really be a great help for the future restorations and upcoming Vintage and Classic Car Rallies.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by morris1948

i feel that wherever nickle plating was used it should be nickle plated and not chromed and points should certainly be deducted if it is not the correct finish.The nickle finish gives the car that correct period look though it is a terrible thing to keep the nickle plating gleaming, as it tends to get dull with the pollution in our enviornment..

totally.

Am currently restoring a 34 Graham and am happy and proud to say that it is going to turn up with a very few minus points

Would love to see some pictures of the car under works if possible.

I sincerely hope more and more people work within an accepted framework/standard so eventually not only does the quality of cars go up but we end up having more fun as we don't waste time cribbing about whether a car was judged fairly or not.

[harit]

This thread had run its course, and was revived by Mr. John.
I felt that I could add some comment because some more aspects are there which one can think about.
The first thing I did was to read the thread from the beginning. So many things have happened in between which can require some consideration.
First of all, where I hope that everyone will agree, the goal is first to raise the standard of the cars themselves, followed by the judging. How do you go about it?
Only by competition!

Let me explain. You may want to raise standards, but who will foot the bill? The car owner. He has to be induced to spend the money. How? By giving him competition, by giving him good events. All other aspects will slowly fall into place.
I give my example, so that nobody could feel offended. I have this Lancia, a well known car, very photogenic, gets huge coverage in the press because of appearance. But the car was shabby. Then along comes the Cartier event, and the car is invited because it was a racing car, was actively raced in India, so there is history. I accepted the invite and set about doing something to improve the car. I had 4 good tyres on the car and 2 old stepney tyres. I got 2 new tyres from US just to have all 6 uniform. Then I got leather upholstry made properly, seats were anyway a bit worn. The car got a proper coat of paint. Only thing I did not do properly, was to detail the engine bay. That was because I relied on the mechanic as I was out of station. So I was induced into spending money on my car to be worthy of the event. But if I had not done anything, it would still have been OK as she is a looker but I would have looked a bit silly to the judges and the car would have stood out also for its shabbyness. But as I said earlier, this I did for the Cartier show.
Now, what about shows themselves? They must also be worthy for us to pump in money to make cars uptodate. So quality of show is very important. The show must give back something to the participants. When there is a VCCCI show, it is for vintage and classic cars. They rightly have several categories in which your car fits in so that it can be judged against contemporary cars. Of course a 1930's Rolls cannot be judged against an Austin of the same age, the Austin will lose out even though Pebble Beach did once have an Austin 7 doctors coupe once and it did win a prize. It was one of those things, like Slumdog with 8 Oscars though Lagaan was 100 times better, and AR Rehmans music in Rangeela was again many times better. (Just a personal opinion slipped in after seeing the movie) But then VCCCI does huge injustice to serious car owners when we have entries like W123 Mercs etc just to increase the numbers. How will the judges work when they have to judge such cars at the same time? A sensible selection of cars should be participating with a proper cut off year. VCCCI rallies are really not worth the bother to spend money to make a car upto date for. Believe me when I tell that I do not wash and service my cars when they go for VCCCI meets.
Once a car owner is induced to spend money on a car, and brings it up to good nick, then he should expect proper judging. This is where DKG has a real point, but there is no easy solution. Even international judges make errors, as happened in the Cartier event with the Lancia and its wheels. So it is not just judging whose standards are to be upped, it is the owner himself who has to sell and many times even explain his car to the judges. The owner must know his car, the history, details of the Marque and model, collect documentation. The judge may not know every aspect of your car, many times I have come across reputed personalities judging at events and making mistakes about originality. I have heard that my 1926 Fiat's engine is not original, my Zuendapp carb is not original, and we the owner and entrant have to be present and explain originality. For the Cartier event I was told by Mr. Manvendra Barwani that I should make a folder, collect anything to add to info. I researched history, visited, met and found people in Bangalore, Kolkotta, Hyderabad to get the cars history, who owned it, who drove it etc. For this I prepared a note. Then I found a photo of the car racing maybe in the 1950's. Since this thread seeks to up the standards I am revealing this so that others may follow suit if they want to. Pictures of the car as found are also very helpful.

The pages of standards put up by DKG could confuse many of us at this stage. They are correct but of too high a standard. The standards in India have to be upped gradually. The fascilities and resources which are available today were not available 10 years ago. Today we can get tyres, so a car with worn tyres must lose points on that score. On the otherhand, windshields or glasses should not be disqualified if they are not safety glasses. Locally made windshield if toughened will come with the stamp of the local glass co, it will be non original to have "Safex" glass on an American car. But they generally do not toughen glass without stamp, it is an excise offence or something like that.
Good chrome is still an issue, presently the chrome is done shortly before an event so that it looks good but some time down the line it gets bad. I have heard but never seen good chrome for large parts, say a bumper or a grill. So some allowance would be in order for "Indian" conditions. On my Humber I have original chrome, it is not perfect but will leave because it is original.

I have offered no solution, just added to the confusion. But we are clear, judging could be improved, cars need to be improved, events need to be improved. And owners also need to improve their attitude.

I can also vouch for the fact that at least in Mumbai, judging has not been impartial every time. But many owners crib very badly if they do not get a prize. Often it appears, but need not be, that prizes are fitted to please some. I believe that till we do not have improved judging, we should not give prizes at all but give all a memento. This may help in some way to avoid the formation of different camps in one city.

Better to have genuine fun at events than bitter bikering and formation of separate camps.

Cheers
Harit

[karlosdeville]

Thank you for the insightful comments (as always) Harit. Atleast a beginning has been made in the right direction, i'm sure things will soar from here.

I do, however, believe that a VCCCI event does warrant a wash and service

Originally Posted by harit

...It was one of those things, like Slumdog with 8 Oscars though Lagaan was 100 times better, and AR Rehmans music in Rangeela was again many times better. (Just a personal opinion slipped in after seeing the movie)...

Do join in the battle here

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...r-goes-13.html

[V-16]

Welcome Morris1948. Its good to see you on this forum and especially on this thread and section (where else?)
I maintain, in some points, like Harit that standards should be in accordance to the movement in the particular city/country. Obviously other countries where the movement is huge like US, UK, Germany and the like have standards very high. What i suggest is that while we base our judging standards on these, we derive our own to suit our movement.

As we already know that many facilities are not available here but then we do the best we can. To equate standards of judging with those of other developed countries (in the vintage movement i mean) would not be right.

What we need here is encouragement, to those who have the option of scrapping these cars for more beneficial purposes.

[the mole]

Well I have to disagree, I dont believe that cars have to be maintained with competitions in mind or the calibre of competitions determines the level of restoration.

When you decide to buy a classic or vintage, the intent is clear to use and maintain it in a condition varying from a new off the assembley line kind of state (show car) to a caringly used and maintained state (daily use classic).

Again i agree Fiats cant compete with Rolls Royces in the same category hence we need more specific categories and specialist judges in those categories to review and evaluate cars. In a country like India where we have more common man classics like morris' Austins, etc why not have a category for the so called non-classics,common mans sedans etc.

[john a milne]

Originally Posted by the mole

Well I have to disagree, I dont believe that cars have to be maintained with competitions in mind or the calibre of competitions determines the level of restoration.

When you decide to buy a classic or vintage, the intent is clear to use and maintain it in a condition varying from a new off the assembley line kind of state (show car) to a caringly used and maintained state (daily use classic).

Again i agree Fiats cant compete with Rolls Royces in the same category hence we need more specific categories and specialist judges in those categories to review and evaluate cars. In a country like India where we have more common man classics like morris' Austins, etc why not have a category for the so called non-classics,common mans sedans etc.

Love the ENTHUSIASM!

We have to walk before we run!

Being such a novice to the car-mania that is so much apart of the West, we can learn from them by providing Concours Venues that addresses both the Collector and the Competitors.

The Statesman Rally here tries to incorporate both with a degree of success, however for the Competitive Competitors it's a whole different world and almost with out exception they have deeeeep pockets.

The vast majority of enthusiastic collectors are in it for the pleasure of putting their cars on show, seeing who all is doing what, and having a good time. Two different Worlds sharing a common interest but with different goals.

The great value of having them together is to enable those who are just having a good time to raise the bar on their cars to a higher level.

The other and possibly more important issue is to ensure that there are more KNOWLEDGEABLE, UNBIASED JUDGES working off the same judging rules and guidelines.

We have some great cars in Calcutta where the Owners don't what the hassle of doing the concours and rally subject to the Old Boy's Club and often unexperienced judges who quite frankly don.t have the experience, background to judge cars that they have never seen before. An example is the Army, who have so gracefully permitted the use of it's facilities which are absolutely superb, who traditionally judge the mechanical part of the concours, sometimes clueless that old cars don't have parking brakes, backup lights etc, etc.

While I do have a very broad background having owned so many cars, and campaigning our MK 11, I have never undertaken a major restoration and have found being here and able to visit a number of the restoration works have learned so much about the art and science. Also have found myself privy to knowing where the restoration has deviated from Original or Authentic and find my self often in a position of not blowing the whistle as sometimes other judges are fabricating or maintaining that this or that is not right.

In India we are a long way from putting a duel guide lines together and the personal to implement them in place, but the longest journey starts with the first steps that you are taking.

Being realistic at this point the number of enthusiasts, like we on this forum, are few in number. What ever we do i feel strongly that we should address the majority of car enthusiasts first and the big boys will find their venues to do their thing.

Lets have FUN, ENYOY being apart of this hobby, encourage others to join us and in the process keep the older cars on the road constantly trying to improve them as a legacy for future generations!

Through the spark of differing opinions, come the light!

SPARK ON!

[DKG]

Most of us own these cars because we are deeply drawn toward them and enjoy using them

That said these cars are special and deserve all that fine care detailed in the judging manual. As custodians of these works of art we must endeavour to slowly but surely return them to their full glory so generations to come can appreciate and enjoy these machines as we presently do

[harit]

Originally Posted by the mole

Well I have to disagree, I dont believe that cars have to be maintained with competitions in mind or the calibre of competitions determines the level of restoration.

When you decide to buy a classic or vintage, the intent is clear to use and maintain it in a condition varying from a new off the assembley line kind of state (show car) to a caringly used and maintained state (daily use classic).

Again i agree Fiats cant compete with Rolls Royces in the same category hence we need more specific categories and specialist judges in those categories to review and evaluate cars. In a country like India where we have more common man classics like morris' Austins, etc why not have a category for the so called non-classics,common mans sedans etc.

Since you did not refer to any post, I am not sure which post you do not agree with. I just presume it is mine, if not, never mind. But, I did not say that cars have to maintained with competition in mind...... I said that competition will automatically fuel the desire to improve a restoration as restorations do get compared. But not in all cases, I agree. But we were talking about standards, and these are ever increasingly going up, you have to admit.
Refering to your second para, the intent mentioned by you is clear, but sometimes there is one more intent. The intent to collect, not necessarily use. And if the intent is to use, then it is not necessarily to use and maintain it in a condition varying from a new off the assembley line kind of state (show car) to a caringly used and maintained state (daily use classic). Some cars to be used require modifications, in some extreme cases though rare the car is like a banger, it runs and that is it. Many make modification to 12Volt, electric fuel pumps, add spot lights, indicator lights, fit an AC, just to make it more comfortable to use.
I just do not want to contradict. There are useable cars which are used and have scars of use. Then there are unpractical cars, these tend not to be used, just collected. Collectors should not try to make all their cars Pebble Beach quality, it is too expensive. Some selected cars worthy of the expense should be restored as such. These cars normally belong to the individuals who invariably compete with one another and so up the standards. A selection of such cars was seen at the Cartier show, there are many more such cars in India.
It makes great sense to have more categories as suggested by you, then there is something for everyone.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by harit

Many make modification....

and more often than not its just these people who take huge exception to judging standards and create a ruckus when their car doesn't win. I think a lot of owners crib to cover for their inability to improve their car's condition either for lack of resources or knowledge or sheer talent. They usually are too vain to accept their car's shortcomings.

I personally don't expect my cars to win anything as I myself know they won't measure up on a 100 pt rating scale. But I still participate for the fun of it and never have badmouthed an organiser for not according a prize. Infact at times I've felt they are too generous just to humour me.

That said I still fully subscribe to the setting up of judging standards and in time resources, knowledge and talent permitting will strive to achieve a 100 pt car. Not because that is my primary objective in ownership but it is deeply satisfying when your car reaches a standard widely accepted in the industry.

Until then I busy myself planning drives and fun outings with friends