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Old 7th November 2016, 15:52   #1816
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All camera companies are going high end (higher margins) to make up for declining volumes. The overall industry is shrinking.

Re a $2000 Oly: very few will buy it except existing Olympus users. For $2000 one can buy a D750 which has superior image quality (sensor size matters). Or a D500/7D Mk2 for a few hundred dollars less, both of which are better for action shooting given the AF and long lens ecosystem. The D500 image quality is better too.

So if image quality is inferior than a few $2000 bodies, and others are better for action shooting, small size is the only USP for such a $2000 package.

Me thinks that in the next 5-10 years, the bigger players will consolidate,and smaller players like Olympus, Pentax (parent - Ricoh - is huge) etc. will be out of business. I am pretty sure that D500 will be the last high end DX camera before things move to mirrorless for Nikon.

And some of us - still shooters (who don't dabble much with video) - will be like the folks who shoot film now, talking about the good old days and 'purity' of photography

While others (the hoi polloi, not just specialists, who do these things today) take photos with mini drones or all terrain mini robots, controlled by the smart phone, or just capture the right frame from video. And change all settings in post - including aperture, focus point etc.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 7th November 2016 at 16:03.
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Old 7th November 2016, 22:18   #1817
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Re a $2000 Oly: very few will buy it except existing Olympus users. For $2000 one can buy a D750 which has superior image quality (sensor size matters). Or a D500/7D Mk2 for a few hundred dollars less, both of which are better for action shooting given the AF and long lens ecosystem. The D500 image quality is better too.

So if image quality is inferior than a few $2000 bodies, and others are better for action shooting, small size is the only USP for such a $2000 package.

And change all settings in post - including aperture, focus point etc.
I would think Olympus puts a new camera on the market to sell lots of them! not just a few.
I would hold on to that thought of it being inferior until you get a chance to actually see and use this camera and compare. But then again to be honest I donít hold much hope for the Cannon/Nikon brigade to ever agree anything else is better than their kit. On the upside; whatever Cannon or Nikon does or doesnít do never keeps me awake. I still canít tell from a photograph what camera was used. No matter what we call superior/inferior.

Changing pictures ďpostĒ is nothing new and has been the case since darkrooms were introduce. I was masking, dodging and burning more than forty years ago in my darkroom. I can tell you one thing though, I love my Lightroom and other photo edit programs, so much easier and quicker!

BTW I can control my Olyís via my iPhone already. This latest Olympus camera has all controls including settings available for tethering.
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Old 8th November 2016, 00:24   #1818
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I would think Olympus puts a new camera on the market to sell lots of them! not just a few.
I would hold on to that thought of it being inferior until you get a chance to actually see and use this camera and compare. But then again to be honest I don’t hold much hope for the Cannon/Nikon brigade to ever agree anything else is better than their kit. On the upside; whatever Cannon or Nikon does or doesn’t do never keeps me awake. I still can’t tell from a photograph what camera was used. No matter what we call superior/inferior.
Let's agree to disagree.

But skills being equal, a heavyweight beats a middleweight or a welterweight. For camera systems, weight/size = sensor size. Not even getting into lens ecosystems.

Just because you don't see a difference for the kind of images you shoot (your genre), doesn't mean that there isn't a significant difference for others. Yes, significant. Don't go by the Ming Thein types, who have little clue about action or sports or wildlife shooting, though they obviously have to pretend that they are good in all genres. How many Olympus pros or evangelists shoot action? How much experience does Olympus have re AF performance or action shooting? Olympus was loss making, after restructuring they got their act together. But their R&D resources are far inferior compared to the bigger players. It took someone like Samsung - with their giant R&D - to push the envelope regarding mirrorless action shooting (and then they quit, since the camera industry wasn't attractive enough for ongoing investments). Now Sony is trying to catch up. But Canikon has been in this field for ages. And AF and action shooting/long lens shooting are the key advantages that DSLRs still hold over mirrorless cameras.

Without small form factor/portability, what is the reason to even go for small sensor camera system, especially when one is paying significant $$? Like $ 2000 for a camera body? Unless you are locked into that system? Let me know one reason please? And do let me know how you can get the same image quality or subject isolation - with same field of view - that one can get with a D810 + 400mm f/2.8, or a 600mm f/4, or even a D500 + 200-500mm f/5.6. Or re landscapes - a 14-24mm f/2.8 - that field of view and image quality. Or for portraits, something equivalent to a 85mm f/1.4 or f/1.2. And now a 105mm f/1.4.

I follow R&D and improvements in AF performance closely. Whether mirrorless or DSLR. Canon or Nikon. Sony or Olympus. That's an area of interest, since I shoot wildlife. But tell me, if you have only driven a car till 80kmph (analogy -shooting single shots), you wouldn't even know how another car can perform at 150kmph. That is the difference between single shot shooting and servo/continuous shooting in burst mode, when trying to track a subject.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 8th November 2016 at 00:30.
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Old 8th November 2016, 00:47   #1819
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Let's agree to disagree.

But skills being equal, a heavyweight beats a middleweight or a welterweight. For camera systems, weight/size = sensor size. Not even getting into lens ecosystems.

Just because you don't see a difference for the kind of images you shoot (your genre), doesn't mean that there isn't a significant difference for others. Yes, significant. Don't go by the Ming Thein types, who have little clue about action or sports or wildlife shooting, though they obviously have to pretend that they are good in all genres. How many Olympus pros or evangelists shoot action? How much experience does Olympus have re AF performance or action shooting? Olympus was loss making, after restructuring they got their act together. But their R&D resources are far inferior compared to the bigger players. It took someone like Samsung - with their giant R&D - to push the envelope regarding mirrorless action shooting (and then they quit, since the camera industry wasn't attractive enough for ongoing investments). Now Sony is trying to catch up. But Canikon has been in this field for ages. And AF and action shooting/long lens shooting are the key advantages that DSLRs still hold over mirrorless cameras.

Without small form factor/portability, what is the reason to even go for small sensor camera system, especially when one is paying significant $$? Like $ 2000 for a camera body? Unless you are locked into that system? Let me know one reason please? And do let me know how you can get the same image quality or subject isolation - with same field of view - that one can get with a D810 + 400mm f/2.8, or a 600mm f/4, or even a D500 + 200-500mm f/5.6. Or re landscapes - a 14-24mm f/2.8 - that field of view and image quality. Or for portraits, something equivalent to a 85mm f/1.4 or f/1.2. And now a 105mm f/1.4.

I follow R&D and improvements in AF performance closely. Whether mirrorless or DSLR. Canon or Nikon. Sony or Olympus. That's an area of interest, since I shoot wildlife. But tell me, if you have only driven a car till 80kmph (analogy -shooting single shots), you wouldn't even know how another car can perform at 150kmph. That is the difference between single shot shooting and servo/continuous shooting in burst mode, when trying to track a subject.
Yep, you have just proven my earlier comment. Nothing beats a completely biased mindset. Enjoy and donít forget to take lots of pictures!

Also, of course, your comments/question suggest a meagre understanding of digital processing. But again,see my earlier comments, it doesnít mean anything. You could still be taking the most beautiful pictures of course. I am sure you do.

In all honesty, I donít care. i will as happily attend a Canon, a Nikon, an Olympus or a Leica workshop (actually Iím attending a Leicaworkshop tomorrow. That one retails for Euro 9599,-- body only! Another body I wonít be buying.

Hereís another picture, guess the camera and lens:

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-pb071846.jpg


Oh and of course some nature, guess the camera and lens:

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-pa132389.jpg

enjoy, and dont get to uptight that those pesky EVIL cameraís are outperforming your Canon/Nikon. Maybe not so much any more at a fraction of the cost, but still at a fraction of the weight.

Jeroen
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Old 8th November 2016, 01:21   #1820
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So, of late I have been feeling the need for a point and shoot camera to take along on my biking trips. Since i am on a bike, I'd rather not drag my Canon 70D along. And no matter how many mega pixels phone cameras have, they just dont cut it for me with their puny sensors. Besides, most of the times my phone is locked to the bike for navigation. Taking it out and shooting pictures is a pain. I have almost decided on Sony A6000, even though the newer version is out. I feel the A6000 suits my needs well. I am just waiting to see what kind of deals come out on the camera during Thanksgiving.

Is there any other camera I should look at? I dont need it to be cutting edge or the latest and greatest (because it would be beyond my budget most probably) I will use it primarily for landscapes, and I dont mind if it even has fixed focal length.

I am posting in this thread because mirrorless cameras fit the size requirements.
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Old 8th November 2016, 01:38   #1821
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
So, of late I have been feeling the need for a point and shoot camera to take along on my biking trips. Since i am on a bike, I'd rather not drag my Canon 70D along. And no matter how many mega pixels phone cameras have, they just dont cut it for me with their puny sensors. Besides, most of the times my phone is locked to the bike for navigation. Taking it out and shooting pictures is a pain. I have almost decided on Sony A6000, even though the newer version is out. I feel the A6000 suits my needs well. I am just waiting to see what kind of deals come out on the camera during Thanksgiving.

Is there any other camera I should look at? I dont need it to be cutting edge or the latest and greatest (because it would be beyond my budget most probably) I will use it primarily for landscapes, and I dont mind if it even has fixed focal length.

I am posting in this thread because mirrorless cameras fit the size requirements.

Hi,
There are probably dozens of cameras that would fit your bill. I have amongst others, an Olympus Pen F with the 17/1.2 lens. i used to take it with me when I would go out on my bullet in Delhi and these days I take if when I go out on my bicycle in the Netherlands.

It is relatively small, outstanding specs and the 17 mm. Lens is a real gem!

Jeroen
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Old 8th November 2016, 02:17   #1822
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Also, of course, your comments/question suggest a meagre understanding of digital processing.

In all honesty, I don’t care. i will as happily attend a Canon, a Nikon, an Olympus or a Leica workshop (actually I’m attending a Leicaworkshop tomorrow. That one retails for Euro 9599,-- body only! Another body I won’t be buying.

enjoy, and dont get to uptight that those pesky EVIL camera’s are outperforming your Canon/Nikon. Maybe not so much any more at a fraction of the cost, but still at a fraction of the weight.

Jeroen

Good that you are agnostic regarding brands when you attend workshops Btw, Leica is not for action or nature.

Not sure what gear was used to take those photos you shared. But I am talking about a different level of bokeh/subject isolation/transition and AF for long lens shooting.

See a couple of photos from wildlife pros:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHMxO_6gIvt/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG3gnfTE...=roymangersnes

No comments re my shooting or digital processing, but sharing my Instagram link so one can get a perspective of where I am coming from.
https://www.instagram.com/nilanjanray/

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
I feel the A6000 suits my needs well. I am just waiting to see what kind of deals come out on the camera during Thanksgiving.

Is there any other camera I should look at? I dont need it to be cutting edge or the latest and greatest (because it would be beyond my budget most probably) I will use it primarily for landscapes, and I dont mind if it even has fixed focal length.

I am posting in this thread because mirrorless cameras fit the size requirements.
The A6000 should be a good fit and VFM, since the newer models have brought the price down. Battery life could be an issue.
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Old 8th November 2016, 02:24   #1823
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Hi,
There are probably dozens of cameras that would fit your bill. I have amongst others, an Olympus Pen F with the 17/1.2 lens. i used to take it with me when I would go out on my bullet in Delhi and these days I take if when I go out on my bicycle in the Netherlands.

It is relatively small, outstanding specs and the 17 mm. Lens is a real gem!

Jeroen
But at more than $1000 USD just for the body it is out of my budget!

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post

The A6000 should be a good fit and VFM, since the newer models have brought the price down. Battery life could be an issue.
Exactly my thoughts. I am ok with low battery life because i dont expect my usage to be very high.
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Old 8th November 2016, 02:29   #1824
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Not sure what gear was used to take those photos you shared. But I am talking about a different level of bokeh/subject isolation/transition and AF for long lens shooting.
No you are not, guess the camera and lens:

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-pa132403.jpg

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Old 8th November 2016, 11:51   #1825
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Just came across this little story. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have new kit all the time, discussing it, claiming camera A is better or worse than camera B, buying magazines with endless kit reviews etc. etc.

But at the end of the day it is about taking pictures:

http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...9&e=0f8125b7b1

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Old 8th November 2016, 14:26   #1826
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No you are not, guess the camera and lens:

Jeroen
I don't know. Re the cat photos: the subject isolation and bokeh quality are not that smooth or creamy, I would think that these are shots taken with small sensor cameras. And when shooting wildlife - not in a zoo (your shots seem to be of captive wildlife) - one doesn't have control over distance. I wouldn't use either of the cat shots in any portfolio page, I don't like the image quality.

If you can't see the difference between the two cat shots you posted and the links of David Lloyd and Roy Mangersnes I had shared, or something like this https://www.instagram.com/p/BKVf3Y1g...-by=davidlloyd or https://www.instagram.com/p/BKDdhvaA...-by=davidlloyd, there is nothing to say

Or even a shot like this, which wouldn't have been possible with a smaller sensor.

Name:  NR1_4076new.jpg
Views: 163
Size:  40.3 KB

Or if one is talking about isolating the subject, something like this (this is a cropped shot) - a random shot taken during a drive.
Name:  DSC_0220s.jpg
Views: 163
Size:  202.9 KB
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Old 9th November 2016, 00:14   #1827
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Iphone and some post editing
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Old 9th November 2016, 00:22   #1828
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Iphone and some post editing
Yes, a small sensor camera. Which happens to be a phone. This is shot with a phone camera too, doesn't mean I will use my phone when I am in the mood for serious landscape photos.
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Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-1478631099117.jpg  

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Old 9th November 2016, 00:49   #1829
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Yes, a small sensor camera. Which happens to be a phone. This is shot with a phone camera too, doesn't mean I will use my phone when I am in the mood for serious landscape photos.
Edit: I think I will stop here. No point arguing. You don't shoot wildlife/nature, don't get the nuances. You haven't used a pro crop sensor or full frame body for action shooting. I wouldn't even talk beyond a point regarding any type of shooting with artificial light, because I know that I know very little about it. But I do know wildlife/nature shooting, and had to respond when you make claims based on paper specs without knowing much about a genre. Or say things like camwra body doesn't matter for action shooting because one can't make out what camera was used - posting snapshots of captive animals in decent light.

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Old 9th November 2016, 01:30   #1830
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You don't shoot wildlife/nature, don't get the nuances. You haven't used a pro crop sensor or full frame body for action shooting.
You are jumping to conclusions, the true completely biased mind at full speed getting worked up!

As I said earlier:

Quote:
I would hold on to that thought of it being inferior until you get a chance to actually see and use this camera and compare. But then again to be honest I donít hold much hope for the Cannon/Nikon brigade to ever agree anything else is better than their kit. On the upside; whatever Cannon or Nikon does or doesnít do never keeps me awake. I still canít tell from a photograph what camera was used. No matter what we call superior/inferior.
Happy shooting!

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