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Old 18th April 2009, 20:55   #121
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GTO, you may find that certain brands are cheaper/more expensive to own, irrespective of sticker price. I'm sure the Toyota Supra and Honda NSX were more expensive than the prevalent BMW 3 series at the time, but probably cost as much to service as an Accord.

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
V13pr/Sideways, So what you are saying is that the replacements of most of the parts as quoted in the link below is reasonable.
Pretty much. Some of the stuff is a lot cheaper than I expected. You've noticed that yourself while comparing with n_c's costing.

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Originally Posted by navin
Q1: How come Skoda parts have a shorter life than their counterparts?
Q2: Are Skoda parts more or less expensive than that of a Corolla, Civic, or Accord?
A1: Because their counterparts (in India) are Japanese, and you can't beat Japanese reliability.
A2: We need to wait for a definitive list of prices. If someone would be so kind as to quote from the latest ACI/OD, we could settle this debate. I believe one of these magazines carries out a detailed survey of parts prices across all segments.

A premium(?) brand workshop will always charge heavily for regular expenses like wheel balancing, alignment, etc. What you can do, for things like oil change etc, is ask for the per-hour labour rate that the company recommends or charges. Also, if you can get the workshop manual, it will tell you how long such a job should take. You can then figure out how much they should be charging you, versus how much they are charging you. Maruti, Hyundai and Tata, who cater to the most price-conscious segment of customers, have the most common jobs -- around 20 -- displayed in the reception area or customer lounge along with their labour rates. These rates are decided by the company and do not change arbitrarily.
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Old 19th April 2009, 11:09   #122
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
GTO, you may find that certain brands are cheaper/more expensive to own, irrespective of sticker price. I'm sure the Toyota Supra and Honda NSX were more expensive than the prevalent BMW 3 series at the time
V1p3r, you are comparing a Jap to a European. Slight differences (all of which influence cost):

1. The C220 & vRS are both European. Also, neither are any of them a match for Jap reliability.

2. The C220 is a far NEWER model than the 13 year old Octavia platform.

3. The C220 has a longer list of features and is considerably more high-tech than the vRS. The C220 is a substantially more upmarket car.

4. On the one hand, we have a Mercedes, which is one of the world's best luxury marques. On the other, we have a Skoda which is supposed to be a cheaper value-propositioned alternative to the VW.

5. The C220 is a diesel, whose regular maintenance parts are more expensive than that of a petrol (oil filters etc.).

6. The C220 is a 30 lakh rupee car while the vRS is a 15 lakh rupee car.

7. The C220 has sold much lesser than the Octavia (economies of scale).

Let's not forget that an Octavia is today a 10 - 11 lakh car, and the exact same vRS mechanicals are sold in 1.8 TPi form. Thus, we are potentially looking at a situation where a 10 lakh car costs more to maintain than one that's 30.

All of the above-mentioned points would logically point to the C being more expensive to maintain. I fail to see a single reason why an Octavia cost more up & until 30,000 kms. I think our market is a li'l too accomodating to pay Merc-like maintenance costs for a Skoda that costs half as much.

Is it any wonder that the Japs & Koreans rule our value-driven market? Is it any surprise that the Octavia & Laura sales are tanking? Is there any doubt on why the Fabia is fighting with the Palio for the title of the WORST selling hatchback in India (now down to a miserable 300 - 500 cars monthly)?

Last edited by GTO : 19th April 2009 at 15:21. Reason: Adding point
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Old 20th April 2009, 00:57   #123
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
V1p3r, you are comparing a Jap to a European. Slight differences (all of which influence cost):

1. The C220 & vRS are both European. Also, neither are any of them a match for Jap reliability.


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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
All of the above-mentioned points would logically point to the C being more expensive to maintain. I fail to see a single reason why an Octavia cost more up & until 30,000 kms. I think our market is a li'l too accomodating to pay Merc-like maintenance costs for a Skoda that costs half as much.
My point is exactly that -- logic has nothing to do with it. Logically MB has been making cars for over a century now, and Ford pioneered mass-production. Yet the Japanese have the toughest, most reliable and inexpensive cars. Like how the West has not caught up with Japanese production standards, Skoda is a laggard even compared to its European counterparts.

I recently had a chance to meet some of the top people at Skoda. Their lack of enthusiasm on all things automotive was rather amazing.

navin, would it be possible for you to ask Autobahn why they did not change the flywheel with the clutch? AFAIK, it is Skoda company policy to do so, resulting in those huge ~50k bills for clutch replacement. In this instance, it looks like Autobahn has actually not followed company policy, which could have disastrous consequences. And I mean engine failure.
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Old 20th April 2009, 10:46   #124
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
navin, would it be possible for you to ask Autobahn why they did not change the flywheel with the clutch? AFAIK, it is Skoda company policy to do so, resulting in those huge ~50k bills for clutch replacement. In this instance, it looks like Autobahn has actually not followed company policy, which could have disastrous consequences. And I mean engine failure.
V1p3r, I do appreciate your helping me with this. I would love to hear the views of other technically inclined TBHPians on this.

I suppose you are refering to thread like the one below
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...-overhaul.html

This is what was done (with respect to the clutch assembly).
Replaced Clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing Rs. 2500
Clutch Plate II 038141032E 1 Rs. 6230
Clutch Pressure Plate 038141025P 1 Rs. 5992
Release Bearing 02A141165M 1 Rs. 2269

While I can understand that the Skoda service manual dictates changing the flywheel, I cannot technically fathom why the flywheel NEEDS to changes everytime the clutch plate and presure plate is changed. The flywheel after all has no moving parts itself (and like the discs of a disc brake) need only be changed if found worn.

So one explanation is that maybe they did not find the Flywheel worn enough.

The other explanation I can give is that Skoda-Autobahn did not have a dual mass flywheel (this flywheel is only used on the vRS and 1.8Tpi (part number 06A105264M) in stock so figured they wont change it! This (if it is true) can prove dangerous.

Using a standard SMF flywheel in lieu of a dual mass flywheel could lead to more vibration in the cabin and that would be noticebale. Right?

Only Skoda-Autobahn can answer this. But will they?

One possible explanation is that the vRS engine is de-tuned for India hence there is less torque and hence less stress on the fly wheel.

I am not alone! see links below.

Is the the sound of a new DMF required? - Tyresmoke Forums

Help! Flywheel problem - BRISKODA - The Skoda Forums

In fact what surprised me more (based on reprts on BriskSkoda) is that they found the coil packs to be ok. Skoda vRS coil packs are notoriously failure prone (average on BriskSkoda is about 25,000 miles).

Last edited by navin : 21st April 2009 at 09:50.
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Old 20th April 2009, 14:17   #125
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
navin, would it be possible for you to ask Autobahn why they did not change the flywheel with the clutch?
Simply because Navin is an informed customer!
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Old 21st April 2009, 03:52   #126
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Simply because Navin is an informed customer!
My point is that they should have given him a reason as to why they have not followed company policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
While I can understand that the Skoda service manual dictates changing the flywheel, I cannot technically fathom why the flywheel NEEDS to changes everytime the clutch plate and presure plate is changed. The flywheel after all has no moving parts itself (and like the discs of a disc brake) need only be changed if found worn.
Navin, unfortunately a Skoda flywheel is built a lot like a clutch. It consists of atleast 3 separate parts, and a spring. It is recommended that, due to design, a flywheel be changed along with the clutch. I am given to believe that the flywheel 'beds in' with the clutch, providing optimum clamping force. If you were to replace only one component, an imbalance may occur. What I do know is that an unbalanced DMF will fail and a failed DMF will not be a pretty sight, and could cost lakhs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
The other explanation I can give is that Skoda-Autobahn did not have a dual mass flywheel (this flywheel is only used on the vRS and 1.8Tpi (part number 06A105264M) in stock so figured they wotn change it! This (if it is true) can prove dangerous.
Actually all Skoda M/Ts use a DMF, but the diesels use a different one. And yes, it can prove very dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
Using a standard SMF flywheel in lieu of a dual mass flywheel could lead to more vibration in the cabin and that would be noticebale. Right?
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
One possible explanation is that the vRS engine is de-tuned for India hence there is less torque and hence less stress on the fly wheel.
This is a common misconception. The 1.8t engine is sold abroad in numerous cars, all with the same clutch and flywheel -- if it is a 5 speed gearbox. It varies in tune from under 150 hp to around 245 hp, and uses the same clutch and flywheel combo. There was no specific detuning for India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
In fact what surprised me more (based on reprts on BriskSkoda) is that they found the coil packs to be ok. Skoda vRS coil packs are notoriously failure prone (average on BriskSkoda is about 25,000 miles).
I think that only happened with pre 2003 cars, and none were sold in India. I could be wrong, though.
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Old 21st April 2009, 10:00   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
My point is that they should have given him a reason as to why they have not followed company policy.

Navin, unfortunately a Skoda flywheel is built a lot like a clutch. It consists of atleast 3 separate parts, and a spring. It is recommended that, due to design, a flywheel be changed along with the clutch. I am given to believe that the flywheel 'beds in' with the clutch, providing optimum clamping force. If you were to replace only one component, an imbalance may occur. What I do know is that an unbalanced DMF will fail and a failed DMF will not be a pretty sight, and could cost lakhs.

This is a common misconception. The 1.8t engine is sold abroad in numerous cars, all with the same clutch and flywheel -- if it is a 5 speed gearbox. It varies in tune from under 150 hp to around 245 hp, and uses the same clutch and flywheel combo. There was no specific detuning for India.
1. If I ask about company policy they might answer that the poicy was changed or that the flywheel was found ok instead...

2. I am still not fully happy with the feel of the clutch. Yes teh clutch is a lot lighter than it was before the plate etc were changed but the "tap and go" feel is still not there like it was when I first got the car. Since there is not pedal box (Skoda claims that hydraulic clutches have no pedal box) the flywheel not mating exactly mgiht be one reason howevre I cant see why. I can understand that if the fly wheel does not mate exactly the clutch could slip or crack but why would the "feel" change?

3. I meant to say that since the car is tuned to 150bhp (at crank) the clutch wont have the same stress as the same car tuned to 200bhp+ hence there might have been less wear and tear on the clutch (flywheel).

V13pr, I sitll appreciate your comments. I am not as well versed about engine-vengine as you, Sideways, Psycho, Viper, etc...so any help I get is a learning experience.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 01:34   #128
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navin, what you say is true. There could be less wear on the clutch, or they could have changed their company policy. I was merely pointing this out because Skoda was infamous for charging large amounts for a clutch change. Just a bit odd, that's all.

About the hydraulic lines, and the feel of the clutch, I'm not really sure. Is there a bump stop at the top of the clutch hinge? If that has moved with use, the travel would increase (just thinking aloud, could be way off track).

I'm no guru like the other names you've mentioned. Just have some experience with RSs and their clutches, that's all.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 10:12   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
navin, what you say is true. There could be less wear on the clutch, or they could have changed their company policy. I was merely pointing this out because Skoda was infamous for charging large amounts for a clutch change. Just a bit odd, that's all.

About the hydraulic lines, and the feel of the clutch, I'm not really sure. Is there a bump stop at the top of the clutch hinge? If that has moved with use, the travel would increase (just thinking aloud, could be way off track).

I'm no guru like the other names you've mentioned. Just have some experience with RSs and their clutches, that's all.
So far the clutch cost me about 17K (6+6+2.5+2.5). Even if they did change the flyhweel and that cost another 6K or there abouts it would have been 23K. This is what I was expecting. There could be 3 reasons why my bill was a lot less.

1. All the noise on TBHP has gotten under Skoda's skin and they are changing - that is only changing those parts that need to be changed.
2. Autobahn-Skoda might have known I was a TBHP member or moderator (however I never mentioned it in any of my interactions) and was hence treading softly
3. There was a change in company policy that we dont know about.

The old clutch plate and pressure plate are still in my possession for any Guru's inspection.

BTW what were your experiences with the vRS clutch. We could all benefit form this. Remember I know very very little about cars and what little I know is very dated.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 19:17   #130
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So far the clutch cost me about 17K (6+6+2.5+2.5). Even if they did change the flyhweel and that cost another 6K or there abouts it would have been 23K. This is what I was expecting. There could be 3 reasons why my bill was a lot less.
Actually I've seen prices like 400 Euro for the DMF, so I think 25k for the flywheel is more appropriate. Which would bring us to 42k, which is around the prices we keep hearing.

Nothing much, was just looking for a clutch to hold 300 hp. Then figured out the whole DMF bit, and realised that all aftermarket clutches come with a solid billet flywheel.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 21:46   #131
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I dont know if this helps anyone, but I just did the 60k service on my Accord 2.4 AT, 2003 model, done 55k kms. The total cost for service is INR 30,000 (give or take), which as far as i recollect (dont have the bill with me right now) comprises of the following main parts / jobs:

1. Power steering pipe (full assembly) changed - INR 9000 approx.
2. Belts etc changed - INR 6000 odd
3. Some work on power seat (one channel not working)
4. Minor touch-up of one door for scratches
5. All filters changed
6. All oils (engine, transmission) changed - synthetic
7. Complete safety check of suspension / brakes - nothing changed, all ok
8. Injectors cleaned
9. Radiator flush and coolant replaced
10. Some throttle "floater' body replaced (dont know what this means)

Got this service done at Roadworx and have found that they have done a good job. The car feels much more responsive and is far smoother to drive than before the service.

I have used Roadworx for my last 3-4 services, and have consistently found them pretty decent to deal with (as compared to Linkway Honda, who think they are doing you a favor by servicing your car), despite their connection with Nummer Eins.

In fact I mentioned this to my service advisor, that I had heard absolute horror stories about Nummer Eins, but what he told me is that the entire ownership has changed now, with a complete management revamp. Cannot comment either ways on how far that is true, but I do know that my experience has been satisfactory.

Sorry, forgot to add on that the reason I posted this here is because I recall reading elsewhere in this thread about seeing a comparative cost for an Accord.

Last edited by kurmist : 22nd April 2009 at 21:54.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 11:39   #132
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I would NEVER trust Roadworx with my car, especially since the scoundrels at the helm of its affairs are the same as those behind Nummer Eins. Once a thief, pretty much always a thief.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 11:51   #133
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Whats this power steering tube? Did you have a problem? And what throttle floater, i know of throttle body.
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Old 23rd April 2009, 14:08   #134
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Sorry guys, I am not too technically inclined (though i love driving), so I dont know the exact terminology for the parts.

I did get the old part back and it looks to be a long rubber plus metal tube. I have also checked the new tube installed (is very prominent when you open the bonnet) and that is stamped with the honda logo etc so am reasonably certain its not spurious.

@GTO - I would agree with you, given the number of stories we have heard here, but contrary to these, my experience with them has been pretty much decent with Roadworx. Let me also qualify this by saying that I have not even told them that I am a member of TBHP, just so that I could see how it works out without any external factors. All said and done, the TBHP moniker carries a lot of weight and workshops could give you "special" service to ensure a good report here. In my case, not so.

I guess at the end of the day, everyone will decide what works best for them. In my case, around a year back, I got fed up with the attitude thrown by Honda dealers (not to mention the charges), and came across Roadworx. Have been giving both my cars (accord and city) to them since and have never felt shortchanged.

Even after this major service, I can definitely feel the improvement in response and smoothness of the car, so am pretty much satisfied.

Let me also just add on that I have nothing whatsoever to do with Roadworx or Nummer Eins. Am just a regular joe who uses their service, so I have absolutely no skin in the game.

Last edited by kurmist : 23rd April 2009 at 14:10.
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Old 24th April 2009, 11:12   #135
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Remember someone on this thread requesting for the comparative mantenance costs of various high end cars.

Was about to attache the ACI march issue pages that cover these.

If it is at the wrong location the mods could shift this to the correct thread.

In the meanwhile saw the earlier post deleted so will differ this post till I am clearer on why?

Possibly it is not appropriate to paste content from other publications?
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