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Old 15th July 2013, 11:33   #391
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Your Scorpio has served you well, you have driven it about 95 K. Obviously being a Mahindra, it served you like a Mahindra and leaking break cylinders, copper pipes rattling, clutch parts replacement was part of the expectations.

But one thing - make sure you do this.

No wonder how your tyre looks ar how much your tread has worn off. Take my advice, purchase a new set of 4 x Bridgestone Dueler H/T of the same size 235/70/R16 and install them with wheel balancing and alignment at the earliest opportunity.

A tyre may look good that it has plenty of tread. But after a rotation of 95 K and bouncing on about a 100,000 potholes in its lifetime, the strenght of the rubber compound and tensile stresght of the sidewalls in now highly doubtful.

Ceat is not a good tyre. It is ok to have it as a spare but dont drive around on it. Whatis it Ceat Fromula 1 radial ? Must be a tube tyre or is it tubeless ?

Please follow my advice change the tyres immediately.

Note :

Which dealership in Delhi do you use for service ? Prices seem to be reasonable there.

I have a similar Scorpio a 4WD VLX Black colour.

Till date in 29 months I have driven it 13,660 KM. Yesterday I drove it to the Karni SIngh SHooting Range in Tughlakabad and back. Love the experience love the music.

For the 10,000 K service got it done myself. Changed the engine oil to Castrol CRB Turbo which i think is absolutely the best for this kind of engine, far superior to Mahindra Maxmile. Changed the oil filter and Air FIlter which a piece of foam with a fluid gel coating. There were some pieces of husk in the filter I had driven it the banks of the ganges through dust and crop fields in Kasganj last may.

The car is perfect except that I need to get the other fluids checked and topped up.

The problem with the front passenger side power window remains. A few fist blows on the door panel gets it working, other times it is stuck again.

But overall its fun to drive.

Last edited by desertfox : 15th July 2013 at 11:40.
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Old 15th July 2013, 12:07   #392
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
... it served you like a Mahindra and leaking break cylinders, copper pipes rattling, clutch parts replacement was part of the expectations.
LOL. My Swift rattles and groans a lot more at 80k than the Scorpio does at 95k.
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...a new set of 4 x Bridgestone Dueler H/T of the same size 235/70/R16 and install them with wheel balancing and alignment at the earliest opportunity.
Soon, desertfox, it'll happen soon!
Quote:
A tyre may look good that it has plenty of tread. But after a rotation of 95 K and bouncing on about a 100,000 potholes in its lifetime, the strenght of the rubber compound and tensile stresght of the sidewalls in now highly doubtful.
My long-distance roadtrips have been shelved for some time, and I am generally confined to city limits now.
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Ceat is not a good tyre. ... Whatis it Ceat Fromula 1 radial ? Must be a tube tyre or is it tubeless ?
It's called the Ceat Czar HT, and some of the best people in the Indian tyre industry, including our very own Nikhilb2008, certify it to be as good a tyre as the Bridgestone Dueler. At a price which is 18% lesser than the Dueler's price, I am seriously considering trying out at least one pair if not a full set, despite your naysaying. .
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Which dealership in Delhi do you use for service ? Prices seem to be reasonable there.
Koncept at C-50 Okhla Phase 2.
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I have a similar Scorpio a 4WD VLX Black colour.
I know.
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For the 10,000 K service got it done myself. Changed the engine oil to Castrol CRB Turbo which i think is absolutely the best for this kind of engine, far superior to Mahindra Maxmile.
Maximile is a mineral oil while Castrol CRB Turbo is semi-synthetic. I believe the Mahindra FEO is also semi-synthetic. Other recommended oils include the Shell HX6 Diesel & HX7 Diesel, and Delvac MX.
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The problem with the front passenger side power window remains. A few fist blows on the door panel gets it working, other times it is stuck again.
I presume you are still covered under warranty, so get the motor replaced free of cost.
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Old 15th July 2013, 13:22   #393
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
.... I am seriously considering trying out at least one pair if not a full set, ....
... and avoid using 4WD altogether?
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Old 15th July 2013, 13:26   #394
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
... and avoid using 4WD altogether?
Didn't catch your line of reasoning, Mathur-saab. Kindly explain the link between using Ceat Czars and using 4wd.
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Old 15th July 2013, 13:38   #395
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

SS - traveller - Radial tyres cannot and should not be used in pairs or pieces. All 4 must be replaced at the same time.

Radial tyres do have its advantages but this is the disadvantage a cost of Rs. 30,000 at one go.

The ride quality can never be the best if a mix of different tyre is used.

You have a new Dueler H/T put it in the spare tyre well and buy a set of 4 Dueler H/T or if you like 693 A/T pattern II or MRF Wandrer in that order.

I have a terrible experience with Ceat Formula - 1 steel radials that came as OE on my Bolero SLX. They simply dont fit the grade. I am so disgrunted with CEAT after this that I never bothered to follow the development of this new product, CEAt Czar, will check it out but I am not optimistic about it. Buy a world class product if the price difference is just about 4000 to 5000 Rs.

Another cheaper product doing the rounds now is Maaxxis tyres. They are of comparatively good quality I guess there is a direct product for Scorpio and Tata Safari replacements.

I installed a set of 4 x Yokohama Geolanders in APril 2010. I was unwilling, they had not perfomed well on my Prado VX 99 model. I had run these 275/70/R16 for just about 5000 KM and gave them back to AL Futtaim Motors, the Toyota dealers saying I dont want them. They had given me a set of Toyo Open Country instead to drive on till the tyre I was making with them arrived.

The Yokohama Geolanders drove well for 45,000 Km in about 24 months and then within a span of 3 weeks the sidewall of 2 of them gave away. For another reason that they did not have an ISI mark on them the sale was also stopped for a few months.

Since May 2012 I am running the Bolero on Bridgestone Dueler A/T 693 tread II and they are serving well.

The same tyre had come as OE on my Mahindra Xylo as well, same size ( 215 / 75/R15 )

The Scorpio came with Bridgestone H/T 235 and having driven it 13,700 odd Km in about 30 months I am OK with it. Good tyres.

I suggest you spend the Rs. 30,000 and shod your 4WD scorpio mHawk with the best shoes.

In

Last edited by desertfox : 15th July 2013 at 13:42.
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Old 15th July 2013, 14:05   #396
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Didn't catch your line of reasoning, Mathur-saab. Kindly explain the link between using Ceat Czars and using 4wd.
You said 'a pair'.
Can you do that with 4WD?
All four have to be the same, unless the diameters have been physically verified.
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Old 15th July 2013, 14:11   #397
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Another cheaper product doing the rounds...
I suggest you spend the Rs. 30,000 and shod your 4WD scorpio mHawk with the best shoes.
I don't believe there is anything like *best shoes* when it comes to buying tyres - it's more like *to each his own*. That said, I trust brands like Bridgestone, Ceat and MRF when used in Indian conditions, more than I trust imported tyres like Maxxis, Yokohama and Michelin. Plenty of people swear by these brands too, but again, I look for feedback by multiple actual users rather than specifications put up by the company.
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Radial tyres cannot and should not be used in pairs or pieces. All 4 must be replaced at the same time.
That comment would be the subject of another long debate that I would much rather avoid on this thread. Suffice it to say that, in my opinion, belief and experience, using tyres of the same make, size and degree of wear in pairs on the same axle (but where both axles need not carry the same make and tread pattern) has no known hazards under normal driving circumstances and environment. I follow this precept to replace / rotate tyres, and have never regretted it.

EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
You said 'a pair'.
Can you do that with 4WD?
All four have to be the same, unless the diameters have been physically verified.
Sizes remaining the same, yes! Diameter of same-sized tyres across different manufacturers should remain much the same. Even without the diameters being exactly and micrometrically equal, no difference is expected to be perceived in a 4wd (and with this type of vehicle the advice is to keep speeds restricted to 40 km/h when on 4wd, and only use on a loose surface - in that case, ANY size of tyre will do!)

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 15th July 2013 at 14:17. Reason: Responding to anupmathur
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Old 15th July 2013, 16:14   #398
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post

I lost 2 tyres (both OE) during this trip. The first one was at Pune. I'd run out of repair plugs, and wanted a puncture fixed, so went to a roadside tyrewallah. Rs.60 and a plug later, the tyre suddenly developed a weird bulge on one side of the tread surface.

Obviously, I'd lost this tyre. But I didn't quite understand why this happened. So I shot off an email on a Friday evening to Bridgestone Pune, asking them to help. Wonder of wonders (and I am seriously impressed with Bridgestone's customer-friendliness), I get a call on Monday morning at 9am, asking me to come over so they can take a look at what's wrong.

The issue was ply separation. The nail went in obliquely, and the fellow plugged the leak vertically. Air pressure and flexing of the shoulder, led to the air getting in between the tread and the belting, separating out the bond - and this was the result. My tyre was dated 3609, so warranty didn't apply anyway (despite a lot of tread still being there), and I bought a similar Dueler HT for Rs.7300.

The second tyre I lost was during our return journey, about an hour out of Rajkot, heading to Ahmedabad. A metal protrusion on a culvert got the rear right tyre. I noticed the metal bit and dodged, the front tyre missed, and the rear tyre deflated with a boom. It was flat in 10 seconds, but by that time the TPMS had already put up its alert, and I had pulled over and stopped - thus saving the TPMS sender unit from self-destructing.

Take a look at the hole that was punched through-and through in the middle of the tread.

The nearest I could hope to find a decent tyre shop was at Ahmedabad, and I found one finally. Unfortunately, he didn't have Bridgestones in stock, but has Continental CrossContacts, Apollo Hawkz, and a new tyre I'd never heard of before - something called the Ceat Czar HT. He offered the Ceat at Rs.6000, it looked pretty okay, and Ceat is offering an unconditional replacement warranty (even due to accidental damage) up to 2-years / 50% tread wear. I didn't have the energy to hunt around for an outlet stocking Bridgestones, I had another 950 km to get home, and I did need a spare tyre for the drive through the night - it was already past 6pm at Ahmedabad.

So I am running on 3 old Dueler HTs and one brand new one, with a brand new spare Ceat Czar HT tyre now. Anybody has any idea about how good / bad the Ceat Czar HT is? Your opinions would be welcome.


I had 2 very similar incidents on the recent Ladakh trip - first a side-wall puncture on the front left Yokohama Geolandar and next, a big hole in the trade of Continental 4x4 Contact. Everyone in Leh told me that nothing can be done about the sidewall puncture, so Yoko was replaced with a brand new MRF Wanderer. The BIG BIG hole in the trade of the Conti was fixed by using the regular method of tubeless puncture repair, but I was afraid it was a bit too big so did not use that tyre again during the trip. After coming back to Pune, I took it to Darshan tyres. As expected, it had lost all the air so I was afraid that I need to incur an expense of another new tyre, but no. Darshan people told me that they have some imported rubber compound to patch such a big hole and it will sure last for the lifetime of the tyre. So we went ahead and fixed the puncture. It cost Rs. 400 (compared to Rs.80 for the regular tubeless rubber compound). I used the tyre for a 1000 km immediately after this and tyre ran like a dream. Big money saved....

I agree with you - there is no harm in running different makes of tyres in the front and rear. Since Ladakh, I have been running 2 relatively new ones (I mean lesser used) in the front (MRF and Conti) and 2 older ones (Yoko) in the rear. Alignment was done well and car tracks very well.

P.S: Rs. 6000 for a Scorpio tyre is a nice deal. Tucson needs 215/65R16 and the MRF Wanderer costs Rs.7400! Yoko - Rs.8300!!!

Last edited by anandpadhye : 15th July 2013 at 16:16.
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Old 15th July 2013, 17:48   #399
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Bridgestone is made in India but it is a Japanese tyre and a very good one.

Radial tyres should always be replaced together, a set of four.

Every 10,000 to 12,000 KM they should be rotated and better that an alignment is done for the vehicle.

When rotating four tyres, minus the spare, the roation pattern should be, front tyre comes to the back, same side and rear tyres go to the front diagonally across.

This way after three rotations every tyre would have served at all 4 wheels and the tread wear would be absolutely even.

The above is true for normal radials, for unidirectional tyres like BF Goodrich Macadma or similar the rotation will be only back to front.

Believe me sirs, a vehicle runs much better, smoother and balanced if all four tyres are of the same tread and wearing out together.

Radial tyres should always be run like this. This is what the design engineers from Toyo and Dunlop Japan have taught me in my over two decades of experience with them and visit to the Toyo tyres factory in Yokohama, Japan.
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Old 15th July 2013, 18:22   #400
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Believe me sirs, a vehicle runs much better, smoother and balanced if all four tyres are of the same tread and wearing out together.

Sir ji, absolutely.

But with 1,280,000 km on the ODO, and frequent long trips on good/bad roads, I really can't afford to abide by the rule all the time, there are almost always more critical repairs that come up and eat my money. And at @8000 rupees/tyre, I am sure I want to extract good life out of each one that I have bought with my hard earned money

And believe me, with one MRF and one Conti on the front axle (both with reasonably equal wear, but not 100%), the car has been running well, tracks in a straight line, does not pull left/right, steering remains stable even at high speeds, etc. I am not saying that one should do this intentionally, but during the course of long term ownership of a vehicle, one can easily get into a situation like this and that's okay...
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Old 15th July 2013, 20:01   #401
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
...I have been running 2 relatively new ones (I mean lesser used) in the front (MRF and Conti) and 2 older ones (Yoko) in the rear. Alignment was done well and car tracks very well.
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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Radial tyres should always be replaced together, a set of four.
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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
...with one MRF and one Conti on the front axle (both with reasonably equal wear, but not 100%), the car has been running well, tracks in a straight line, does not pull left/right, steering remains stable even at high speeds, etc.
... one can easily get into a situation like this and that's okay...
So there you are, the debate has started already, despite my not particularly looking forward to it on this thread. I've made my personal viewpoint quite clear on this - that replacement on one axle is fine, and all 4 do not have to be exactly the same tyres. I believe I have enough experience and understanding of automobiles to overrule desertfox's opinion, though I am not about to mix different makes of tyre on the same axle as anandpadhye has done - or that UK tyre laws allow.
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It is also a legal requirement to ensure that tyres of different construction types are not fitted to opposite sides of the same axle. The two main tyre types are radial and cross-ply, and these must not be mixed on the same axle.
Mixing brands and patterns of the same construction type is permissible depending on the vehicle type and manufacturers recommendation.
Source
In fact, given the number of reported cases of sidewall failure on Yokohama Geolandars across the forum, I am not about to buy or recommend that particular make to anyone, despite whatever positive that you might say about the brand, desertfox. This may again spur another debate, but my earnest request to everyone would be - please start a new thread in the Tyres and Alloy Wheels Section and argue it out there. Let this LTOR thread not be the place to discuss the good and bad of tyre replacements.
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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
...with 1,280,000 km on the ODO...
Is there an extra zero there?

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 15th July 2013 at 20:03.
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Old 15th July 2013, 20:13   #402
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

It did not occur to me you did not want to discuss tyres on this thread.
I am out of here.

Yes, there was an extra zero...
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Old 15th July 2013, 20:59   #403
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

I agree with SST, with what he has done. If I would have been in his place, would have done the same too. I would replace them as a set, only when a majority of them do not have much life on them. For a person whose 3 OE tires are running at more than 95000+ kms, he must be knowing a thing or two of how to use and maintain them.

We used to test the same vehicle with a variety of tires for durability, but have never seen a tire last more than 50000 kms on a highway run. While the test drivers were ordinary people is a different story, but still...

While looking for a spare tire for my car, I would be more concerned about the following (rest all things remaining the same)-
  • Dynamic and static rolling radius
  • Load index
  • Speed index
The manufacturer would never ask a customer to change all 4 tires if one goes bad, does not sound reasonable unless you are a tire dealer. I don't think I need to mention my CV details here to prove what I am saying is right, people here know what background I come from.

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Old 16th July 2013, 11:07   #404
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Uk law does not specify that brand and tread of radial tyres must be the same on each axle. The size should be the same with 2mm of tread surviving in it.

The pity is that you get a 3 month pollution certificate here but cars do not go for an annual passing as in other developed countries. It will solve a lot of problems in terms of tyre safety, brakes, emission, traffic fines and toll fines from a universal all India RFID toll tag. This enterprise can be privatized to gas station operators.

SS traveller - you are free to your own decisions, but it is not safe to run tyres that have done almost twice the recommended life.

Tyres are usually changed at 40,000 KM, maximum at 50,000. By this time the sidewalls and the rubber compund loses its safe limit of tensile streght, the steel beads give away from the rubber.

In Bridgestone H/T which is an OE on Nissan Patrols as well, less than normal tread wear is a usual occurance if the alignment is right. THis has been observed in Pirelli Scorpion as well.

GOing on the tread depth alone the Arabs dont change their tyres on Nissan Patrols ( Nizzan Batrols ) and I have seen or heard of at least a dozen tyre burst cases on speeds between 140 and 160 kmph specially in the summer months.

In India of course we usually do not drive above 100 Kmph so tyre bursts in passenger cars or SUV will be lesser here.
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Old 18th November 2013, 09:13   #405
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Sir, no updates since long? Isn't the Scorpio driven around much? I think it should have nudged the 6 figure mark on the odometer, no?
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