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Old 18th August 2010, 23:09   #541
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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
@GreaseMonk & @Nasir- Long way back I had written about sprag clutch and how to prolong its life. In that I had clearly mentioned to use Electric Start in the mornings so please do not use kick in the morning to start your cold engine.
I don't get a point here. How can an electric start help to prolong sprag clutch's life and manual kickstart can reduce it? Please elaborate, I'm lame.
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Old 19th August 2010, 00:50   #542
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@Nasir-First of all please don't confuse the Non UCE sprag problem to UCE sprag problem. Booth have totally different reasons to cause the damage to sprag, so lets just talk about only UCE sprag problem here.

Read the attached post and no it wasn't the relay circuit the cause, you should read it again.

Now back to your problem and answer to your questions.

Why it happens only in the morning?

BECAUSE in the morning when we start, the clutch is stiff/stuck(not completely disengaged) and that means it puts load to the crank/sprag through the primary chain. More hard work for starter and more load on to the sprag clutch if the engine rebounds. In simple words for e.g. its easy to push a cycle with only one guy on it, now try pushing the bike with two guys on it. IF you go back to the very first page of my review, read under gearbox-way to start up in the morning.

Or to understand practically then try this out -
Without switching the ignition on in the morning, depress and hold the clutch lever then swing the kick. For the first 2 kicks the piston will move even though you have the clutch engaged.

Hemant it's for you and Nasir

Now other thing which no one has discussed it anywhere but seeing you getting so much troubled about it yet you want to understand it throughly is what I like about passionate people.

Auto de-compressor is the another part which can take a toll on sprag bearing. So you want to know why and how right?

In the morning engine oil is a lot more viscous when cold, it helps the auto de-comp not to work properly. Means it does not open up to decompress the combustion chamber. So that results in too much compression + the load gifted from the sticky clutch= more chances of rebound by kick and the moment the crank rotates clockwise, the sprag gets the almighty load on its shoulder and tends to get fed-up in due course leaving you to take care of it later.

Auto de-comp needs certain Rpm to work properly, by using kick we do not give it enough to work. But when we use electric start, it gives it enough rpm to work properly and our sweet sprag gets away from the work load thus prolonging it's life.

Its a combination of auto de-comp and sticky clutch which creates problem although the effect from a sticky clutch in the morning does not put enough to cause the damage.

So in the morning when the engine is cold, its not easy for fuel to combust in that condition. When the engine is warmer, it helps fuel to atomize properly and help in starting. Auto de-comp has lot to help in this issue.

My humble request is not to use kick start in the morning no matter how loaded you feel with the testosterone. Unless you dont bother spending 4k on a sprag after your 10k warranty runs out.

Nasir you can inspect the bearing but you will have to open up the primary case, remove the clutch and then undo the sprag clutch only then you can access the sprag bearing. Just ask the mechanic to check it out. Its a caged bearing, just keep in mind that there should be no missing or broken pieces upon removal and no damage to the inner side surface of the sprag. Google the picture of a sprag bearing and you will know how it looks.

Usually if you can repeat the noise or starting issue in front of the RE engineer then thats enough to get you a new one or if they inspect it properly by opening up.

Why Nano starts without a thud or a whine?

Well it has a flywheel directly attached to the crank and the starter gives power directly to the flywheel. Less parts/gears involved in transferring the power to the crank. Simple yet effective way to start.

On UCE starter has two gears to transfer the torque to the crank which has no flywheel.

Booth are of different design and setup, not comparable to each other.

Last edited by Randhawa : 19th August 2010 at 01:03.
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Old 19th August 2010, 09:18   #543
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@Randhawa, Thanks for giving light on this topic man. I am sure it must have helped a lot of Royal Enfield owners.
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Old 19th August 2010, 17:39   #544
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Thanks Randhawa for all the valuable info. They do give a much clearer picture of the scenario.

(Hey, i have been religiously following the procedure of kicking the bike 3-4 times with the clutch lever pressed, and ignition key off, as explained by you in your very early posts)

Today morning, i had the same issues while starting the bike. Lots of whining of motor, followed by really loud metallic bangs and booms. Based on previous 10 days experience, i know i would face this at early morning start, so i was ready with my camera phone to capture the noises.

After lots of trials, and noises, finally it started. Took the bike straight to brand store service centre and met the service manager. Explained him the problem and he said it looks like case of spoilt / faulty sprag. He mentioned that RE is comeup with a better sprag, which had been tested for 20k kms of trouble free running. He said he would fit that to the bike. Left the bike there, took a auto and reached office. Hoping to get the bike back in a day or two, lets hope the issue is taken care of.

Nano was mentioned just out of frustration.. A CAR costing less than C5, and lesser issues. I know there is no comparison. Hey is nano a twin or triplet?
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Old 19th August 2010, 21:31   #545
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@Ricky- You are welcome

@Nasir- I have gone through enough in 13.5K to tell you whatever can go wrong or what is wrong on a C5. I know my bebe inside out now and I can help any fellow C5 owners with any problem they are facing quite confidently. Rest is up to you to believe me or learn for yourself like I did from bad experience.

You followed rigorously the procedure but started with the kick hey.

Dont worry, they will change the sprag but I request you again not to use kick in the morning please.

I have finally achieved Nirvana

I had a lingering problem with my bike since its rebuild. As I was out of warranty so things were looking very bleak to get anything out of RE and I was expecting to empty my pockets a bit. I knew the problem was related to valve terrain but wasn't sure which one to blame.

After lot of persuasion and couple of weeks of waiting for parts as I wanted everything in hand before the engine is opened up so not to stitch it back without actually resolving the problem. Today was the day to let hell loose.

So finally we opened the RH chamber and removed booth the cams which earlier we had inspected and found play in booth the sleeves of the cam. It was obvious we had to change the cams first and test it before we could open up further. Very carefully the cams were put in and adjusted. As the tank was off so I took the opportunity to replace the accelerator cable which had gone a bit hard. After putting back every thing she sprung back to life and Voila, the noise was gone and I had such a relief. I knew I will sleep like a baby tonight.

Now my bebe is flawless and only thing I need to work on is the swing arm and may be a rear disc conversion kit if I get cheap parts from Pulsar rear disc setup.

The ammeter is up and running and next step is to install fog lights. I have a pair of retro fog light lying around which I might fit if I can get the new reflectors for it. I will put up the videos of it working and installed position which is far better then my first attempt.


I owe a big thanks to RE engineer Mr Rohit and his boss Regional Service Manager Mr Jadvinder Singh for sticking by and providing support to me in all my bad times although I had to be a bit pushy at times(they tolerated me). Rohit was always there to help me with whatever I needed and lot of things we worked out together. All the work carried was done free of charge except the acc cable which I was so happy to pay for. Gosh I sound cheap hehe.

She is running smooth like a butter and pickup on my bull is awesome as always. Checked the compression and she is running a healthy sum of 150 Psi and that was with engine just about warm, I wonder what she will have at top range. Couple of C5's I have checked for comparison have churned out around 120Psi and these bikes were babyed during run in.

So finally I am in unison with the bike and loving the muted thump again. Ah bless Anastassia.

Last edited by Randhawa : 19th August 2010 at 21:36.
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Old 20th August 2010, 12:07   #546
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Quote:
So finally I am in unison with the bike and loving the muted thump again. Ah bless Anastassia.
sound awesome. am sure it would be feeling even better. Great going mate.
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Old 20th August 2010, 16:22   #547
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sound awesome. am sure it would be feeling even better. Great going mate.
@nasirkaka.


by any chance is your bike at RE brand store service center. number is 6659 i guess. I recognized by the seat you had posted. while discussing in general i asked the SA whats is the problem with this bike. he said there no problem at all. this has come for general service. Hope the bike is gone for general service.
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Old 21st August 2010, 11:28   #548
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Quote:

by any chance is your bike at RE brand store service center. number is 6659 i guess. I recognized by the seat you had posted. while discussing in general i asked the SA whats is the problem with this bike. he said there no problem at all. this has come for general service. Hope the bike is gone for general service.
Hey, Thats my bike.. and the number is 6559 and not 6659. (55 in between 69 is how i remember it). OK, now dont get any naughty ideas

And the bike is NOT parked there for general service. Its there cos the sprag clutch conked-off, and they need to replace it with the new and improved one. (as claimed by RE).
How ignorant these service folks are..

They have my bike for past 3 days. Hope they change the sprag clutch, and not just do a general service and give it to me.

@ all. How do i make sure if they have changes the sprag clutch without opening and seeing it? is there any other way to find that out? was just curious.
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Old 21st August 2010, 11:33   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasirkaka View Post
Hey, Thats my bike.. and the number is 6559 and not 6659. (55 in between 69 is how i remember it). OK, now dont get any naughty ideas

And the bike is NOT parked there for general service. Its there cos the sprag clutch conked-off, and they need to replace it with the new and improved one. (as claimed by RE).
How ignorant these service folks are..

They have my bike for past 3 days. Hope they change the sprag clutch, and not just do a general service and give it to me.

@ all. How do i make sure if they have changes the sprag clutch without opening and seeing it? is there any other way to find that out? was just curious.
Give them a call and tell them, when the parts arrive they should inform you. Get it replaced in your presence. Dealers are mischievous, and may change the faulty parts rather than the complete assembly sent by RE.
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Old 21st August 2010, 14:47   #550
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@bradhey- They can not change only the sprag bearing because it comes only as one unit which includes

1 sprag bearing
1 needle roller bearing already installed in the sprag housing
2 part sprag housing/gear

Also when its replaced under warranty, the dealer has to send the complete unit back to RE to get payment from RE for the faulty part and then RE sends the unit back to the vendor to get their money back.


By the way, hows your bull behaving in a straight line?

Last edited by Randhawa : 21st August 2010 at 14:56.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 11:44   #551
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Thanks for the update Randhawa. Did you hear the news about a second update on the air filter design ! Its being made on lines of thunderbird's completely sealed plastic unit, that will fit into the right side box.........! I have also been informed that a completely new swing arm is being developed by RE to care of the high speed instability issues....! How can we, the existing customers get this update, especially those who have exhausted their warranty ???
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Old 23rd August 2010, 00:04   #552
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Finally installed up and running, I am loving it

As politely put by Achint a cooker pressure design ammeter mounting, I dared not to repeat it again. So I deleted the option of mounting it on the handle and fabricated a new mounting bracket to install it very neatly which goes with the rest of the theme of the cluster.

Still not sure about the looks, I mean if it should be left with the mat finish/ powder coated or painted in C green.

So far the response from fellow bulleteers have been quite positive. Some asked if it was an OEM job or the purpose of it, some said it looked nice. Few (c5owners)got scared after me telling them the reason I wanted to have one.


Anyway here are few pics and a video of it working.

In this video you will see the movements of the needle when the pump primes, needle moving to -ve under load when ES engaged. Then the charging increases drastically and takes around 20 seconds to replenish the juice consumed by the ES at around 3000RPM after that the charging comes to normal(rectifier cutting out). On idle it does not give much charging.

The moment I turned on the indicator/ head light, charging increase which is directly proportional to the load applied. RR sees the demand and load then provides charging accordingly. At least I'll know when the RR is charging/overcharging or not working at all and manage my ride through a remote areas accordingly.


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Total cost= Rs 830
Aluminium Rs 150
Fabrication Labour Rs 350
Ammeter Rs 170
Wiring Rs 150 including the 15amp fuse/wire/ wire sleeve

I used the safety cap of the shock rod to mount the assembly by drilling a hole and threading into it using a Lk bolt.

As no electrician could do the work to my satisfaction so I did the wiring myself. Took me half a day to do it. Had to take the fuel tank off to route the wiring OEM style.






@Bradhey- In March I was told about the way they are going to re-design the air filter but I wasn't given a clear picture. RE told me that they were designing a box and something else but I was not sure if that was supposed to be inside or outside. Since then I looked at the report by Bharat about then hinge which I was a bit disappointed as my lamination tricks works a bit better then there hinge outside design. Now only you have given me this update about the plastic box inside the air filter box. This sounds too awesome and promising.


I think you missed my post on the supposedly new swing arm design by RE and I am waiting for it since March. I'll wait till November and if its not out by then, I'll modify the current swing arm to my satisfaction.

It's going to be hard to get anything free from RE, never mind the scenario of in or out of warranty. RE is not going to replace the air filter box or swing arm for anyone free of cost as RE has never in their lifetime posted a recall.

So anything done will be un-official and for selected customers or for those who were making noise about the issue and has officially communicated with them on this issue. Just like the tool kit, when I had informed them about their blunder with the kit only then they handed out the new kit or missing kit to those who got in touch with them and not to everyone until they started shipping out C5 with the proper tool kit.

New air box and swing arm will be under Rs 1500 each so if worse comes worse then we will have to shell out Rs 3K max. Although I know I want the swing arm more then the filter box.

If you intend to get these items then get some communication going with them regarding the issues officially and make new friends in RE. Meet your service engineer and the regional service manager. Communicate with them in writing. Tell them the seriousness of the issue and how much you are bothered by it and why.

If they don't give me the new swing arm then probably I will go to court and get a petition signed by all the C5 owners and fight a common battle. I hope it does not comes to that and common sense prevails.

There are more ways to deal with it but I'll stick strictly to PM's if you ever need it.

Last edited by Randhawa : 23rd August 2010 at 00:06.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 10:27   #553
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Hi Randhawa. Have been following your thread passively since its beginning. I just found this on the net.
http://www.phitesla.com/products.php
It is a digital display unit. Your comments on this please
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Old 23rd August 2010, 11:04   #554
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I quite like the product but it has two major down sides.

Too expensive I think, cost around 5K
There is no plug and play wiring option available so that means its chopping time with rest of the OEM wires.


What extra does it gives over standard equipment?
Only RPM and temp readings. IF you get the amp meter then nothing else. RPM reading wont even work for UCE 500 due to the fact that it has electronic ignition and this meter works with TCI/CDI. Should work for rest of the RE products.

Apart from any pros or cons only if this meter came up with plug and play wiring then I would really like it. You really dont want to mess up with the RE wiring, hard to get any good electrician around for bullet.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 14:32   #555
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@ Randhawa:

Hey, thats very neatly integrated ammeter and am sure it would be very useful in the coming days, with your plans of aux lights.

Even i am planning to replace just my main head lamp with HID (high intensity discharge) one. Is that called called Xenon light? (white light)

I saw one on a TB and was impressed. Although i dont have much idea on how to go about sourcing for one. Do share some info on replacing the headlamp in C5 with a HID one. Also the make, costs, dos and donts, and pros and cons of a HID lamp.

On another note, my 4 pin horn realy went kaput cos of riding in the rain. Water got in to it. (it was a minda make). Now i got another one, and have nicely sealed it with araldite (hope araldite does not conduct electricity). Shall install it on the bike this evening and check.

Also, got the bike from the service station. They service guys said the the have replaced the Sprag with the new and improved one. (i coulf not find time to get it done in front of my eyes), so will have to take their work for it. Once thing i noticed is that NOW there is silicon gel all around the perimeter of the under-engine LH cover. Wonder why they have used the silicon based gel (rubbery stuff) to seal it?? Lets see hoe it starts tomorrow morning.
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