[ajay_satpute]

Originally Posted by althaaf

Hi everybody,
We urgently need a diesel sedan for a slightly long term use. We have an offer for a used cruze 16k on oddo but 2009 model at 10.75. Right now we are totally confused if we should go for a used cruze or fresh verna diesel. What do you guys suggest? i found space problem for both the vehicles. what to do? Please help immediately.
Thank you all.

Dude, Verna is out of contention for you totally. You mentioned that you need the sedan "urgently" and Verna has terribly long waiting periods, especially for the diesel variants. When I spoke to one of the dealers in Pune last week, he said the waiting period is around 6 months right now, but is expected to reduce to 3-4 months, which is still long.

Secondly, used Cruze at 10.75 looks like a OK deal. But, why don't check out our BHPians Cruze which he had used for just 5k Kms and is one hell of a car. He has transformed his Cruze into a killer machine. Here's the link to the classifieds page http://classifieds.team-bhp.com/buy-...et/Cruze.html/.

Also, if you can wait for a week or so, you can have a look at the new Ford Fiesta. I checked the new Fiesta in flesh just last Sunday and it looks promising. Ford has promised that the delivery period will NOT extend beyond 2 months in any case. The rear seat of new Fiesta is better than the new Verna, but the feature list is a little short compared to the Verna.

All the best!

[Poitive]

Had "Seen and Felt" the New Ford Fiesta yesterday. Have added a report on the same in the Ford thread here.

Also had a short TD of the Optra (yet) again! Will post observations on that a bit later.

[Poitive]

Had a TD of the Optra once again, guys. Didn't really need it, but since I had time and was in the vicinity, thought why not take one to confirm my views on this car. Was pretty late, so could not finish the TD as the Owner/Owner's father's car we being used as a TD vehicle. This also may be a reason why the car was very well maintained.

Now for the observations

• The seat felt a tiny bit less comfortable. Adjusting the tilt of the seat almost took care of it. The rear seat angle felt a bit more upright this time. Guess it would be a bit to do with my being pretty tired by the time I was on the TD.
• Found it to be even more fun to drive.
• The car was the same one I had TD before, but it felt a bit different. Possibly been serviced in the meantime. The power delivery felt relatively more linear.
• After bansal's experience (and this, by no means is to convince him), specifically checked how it went over humps and from lower speeds/rpms in second. I crossed a couple of the sensibly made speed breakers in third gear. Guess the speed would be about 40ish.
• The ones closer to turnings were taken in second. It was at ~25kmph @ 1000RPM. Didn't think it to be fair to expect a diesel of this size to pick from below 1000RPM.
• Was picking up acceptably from 1000RPM. More comfortably from around 1200-1400 RPM.
• I normally try Test Drives with my normal day-to-day driving style and then push the car the odd time, when the city roads allow. This time I specifically checked on the cornering/handing (partly based on some remarks in another thread)
  
  It was surprisingly good. Even though there was some body roll, it was totally composed and 135degree turns being taken pretty quickly. Was even more impressed by this car (which, evidently I am in love with ). It wasn't a sharp - wasn't too quick to respond to steering inputs, however after that almost insignificantly short delay, (which may matter if one is in a rally or racing), it responded as one would expect a good handler to. So here was a car, which anyway had such a wonderful ride, now handling as well too. (guess the chassis and a well configured all independent suspension would be the reason for this). An absolutely wonderful combo of ride and handling.
• There was no real lack of power at lower RPM's (>1000-1200). What was there, was a surge later (didn't check the RPM), which may give a perception of lack of power before.
• I wonder why the car is experienced so differently by people. It may have to do with the maintenance of the TD vehicles and probably some upgrade to ECU settings. This one, as I had said was the owner's own car.
• The steering feedback was nothing like the Linea. But in a way I am happy with it. It feels a tad less, but I think as one uses the car, one would know the limits of the car and be more sensitive to the limited feedback. Eventually it should feel like the right balance between feedback and ease of a soft steering.
• Could pretty comfortably seat one 6'person behind another.
• Yes, the cabin design felt dated. But as said a few times before, was of pretty high quality. Despite the dated look, there were areas where it felt better. It was very airy - something I love. The top of the windshield was high enough (unlike the NFF) The windows started low enough, even at the rear. There was ample legroom. The footwell was big enough and had a good dead pedal.
• From the outside, I had initially found this car just better than average. Over time, as I have noticed many - when one looks at a newer Optra, it does look pretty good. The design has grown on me and has a bit of a timeless feel. Not the flair of the Cielo discussed, but a more sedate design.

Will add more, in case I think up of anything I missed here.

Edit: The slant (or rather lack of it) of the floor in the footwell was comforable. Unlike the Cruze, where it seems to slant lower away from the body. The pedal placement and footwell of the Cruze really didn't feel comfortable to me. No such issues here. Maybe we should have a thread comparing the Optra and the New Optra (Cruze).

[Poitive]

After all this good talk, a member has had a scary experience within a few weeks of owning an Optra.

Link here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-disaster.html

Hope it is sorted out properly. Bad enough that it occurred.

[prabhuferrari]

Originally Posted by Poitive

After all this good talk, a member has had a scary experience within a few weeks of owning an Optra.

Link here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-disaster.html

Hope it is sorted out properly. Bad enough that it occurred.

Reports like these are what makes one reconsider decision about Optra. Though there are many good threads about Optra magnum, some experiences like these worries me. Hope GM resolves the issues soon.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by prabhuferrari

Reports like these are what makes one reconsider decision about Optra. Though there are many good threads about Optra magnum, some experiences like these worries me. Hope GM resolves the issues soon.

Prabhu, if you know of other such experiences, please share them (links?). I was getting pretty close to going ahead. This makes me reconsider just a bit. The TBhp reviews/Test drives had rated the reliability as excellent.

Also, how are things with other manufacturers? Do we have such reports from others as well?

[prabhuferrari]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Prabhu, if you know of other such experiences, please share them (links?). I was getting pretty close to going ahead. This makes me reconsider just a bit. The TBhp reviews/Test drives had rated the reliability as excellent.

Also, how are things with other manufacturers? Do we have such reports from others as well?

I do not have any other links. I had shortlisted my choice to either Optra or Fiesta. This maybe one off incident as I rarely came across negative reviews. But still not very pleasant. I really feel bad for him. Hope this is a rare case and resolved soon by GM.

[roadtrip]

Yeah, nasty experience, and reading something like this always gives you a bit of a chill when you're thinking of buying a car.
But what do you do? There's at least one horror story about anything you choose. All you can do is hope that the poor victim gets things sorted out without too much more nonsense, and that it doesn't happen to you.

@ poitive... tried emailing, but I think I can't because I'm still a newbie. Sigh. Anyway, this looks the right thread to talk about my thought process.

[oxyzen]

Originally Posted by Poitive

The ones closer to turnings were taken in second. It was at ~25kmph @ 1000RPM.

No way can the speed be 25 at 1000RPM in 2nd gear.
Posting a few V1000 figures.

V1000 = Speed of car at 1000 engine RPM



Vento Diesel has the tallest gearing. So (in the diesel segment), there is an advantage regarding Max speed in each gear at the compromise of Toque. Still it pulls madly.

[khoj]

Originally Posted by Poitive

I normally try Test Drives with my normal day-to-day driving style and then push the car the odd time, when the city roads allow. This time I specifically checked on the cornering/handing (partly based on some remarks in another thread)

Why am I not surprised at your findings below. As I have posted on this thread earlier as well as on the other thread it is indeed the stiffened up chassis aided by the AWIS set up that holds the key to this car's handling.

It was surprisingly good. Even though there was some body roll, it was totally composed and 135degree turns being taken pretty quickly. Was even more impressed by this car (which, evidently I am in love with ). It wasn't a sharp - wasn't too quick to respond to steering inputs, however after that almost insignificantly short delay, (which may matter if one is in a rally or racing), it responded as one would expect a good handler to. So here was a car, which anyway had such a wonderful ride, now handling as well too. (guess the chassis and a well configured all independent suspension would be the reason for this). An absolutely wonderful combo of ride and handling.

Poitive has quoted figures for the Magnum which does not figure in your chart below so your point is..

Originally Posted by oxyzen

No way can the speed be 25 at 1000RPM in 2nd gear.
Posting a few V1000 figures.

V1000 = Speed of car at 1000 engine RPM

Attachment 576589

Vento Diesel has the tallest gearing. So (in the diesel segment), there is an advantage regarding Max speed in each gear at the compromise of Toque. Still it pulls madly.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by oxyzen

No way can the speed be 25 at 1000RPM in 2nd gear.
Posting a few V1000 figures.

V1000 = Speed of car at 1000 engine RPM

Attachment 576589

Vento Diesel has the tallest gearing. So (in the diesel segment), there is an advantage regarding Max speed in each gear at the compromise of Toque. Still it pulls madly.

Based on gear ratios, Magnum does following speeds at 1000rpm
1st gear - 9.3 km/h
2nd gear - 18.05 km/h
3rd gear - 27.26 km/h
4th gear - 36.62 km/h
5th gear - 46.36 km/h

Considering the speedo error margin of 3-5 20+ km/h in the 2nd at 1000rpm is possible in the Optra.

I think, even Verna diesel would have taller gears than Vento diesel. The old Verna did for sure.

On one end one might prefer shorter gears to reduce turbo lag, but with diesels revving considerably less than petrols, taller gears are need of the day with diesels running high at speeds.

[oxyzen]

Originally Posted by khoj

Poitive has quoted figures for the Magnum which does not figure in your chart below so your point is..

I dont have the figure for OPTRA. But what I am trying to say is 25 is too high. All the cars are in the range of 13+2.

@ Positive, can you reconfirm.
May be Optra owners can also pitch in their comments.

Originally Posted by SLK

Based on gear ratios, Magnum does following speeds at 1000rpm
1st gear - 9.3 km/h
2nd gear - 18.05 km/h
3rd gear - 27.26 km/h
4th gear - 36.62 km/h
5th gear - 46.36 km/h

Considering the speedo error margin of 3-5 20+ km/h in the 2nd at 1000rpm is possible in the Optra.

I think, even Verna diesel would have taller gears than Vento diesel. The old Verna did for sure.

That is a good piece of information. Where did you get it from?

To calculate V1000 you need lots of data
1) Gear ratio
2) Final drive Ratio
3) Wheel/Tyre size

I calculated these from Autocar test drive where max speed in each gear was mentioned. (Speedo error corrected). Also mentioned was the engine RPM.
Calculations pretty easy.

3-5 speedo error at 20KMPH? Speedo error is somewhere around (3-7)%.
That should come up to 1KMPH approx.

Taller gearing in ANHV? Should be I suppose.

[roadtrip]

I might be a bit of an impostor on this thread, because what I started out looking at was not a diesel sedan, but a petrol hatch! And even when i finally shifted to sedans (none of the hatches offered the kind of equipment or big-car feel I wanted), I only shifted to diesel because of how good the Optra was.

Anyway, this is how it started.

My car would be used a fair deal in the city (say 65%), but highway feel was more important - I can't stand a car that doesn't feel good on my weekend drives or on the Mumbai-Goa trips I take every few months. We've always had petrol cars, and with my low running (less than 10,000km a year), diesel wasn't necessary. I needed good interior space, good handling and performance, and it had to 'feel' nice, with good plastics, a nice loadout of equipment and a decent level of overall refinement.

Apart from the hatches (mainly the Fabia and Polo 1.6), I was considering the Ford Fiesta S, a car I've always loved. A bit plasticky and rough on the inside, but a delight to drive. Unfortunately, since I wasn't even considering buying a car until August, it fell away. Ford went and killed their best product, in my opinion, to make way for the new Fiesta, and I didn't want any of the other Fiesta Classic variants.

Next, the Linea. Instant love. It looks beautiful, has a great chassis (especially the steering), and the steering wheel felt absolutely perfect. There was a big boot, too, which helped. I wasn't looking at the Multijet at that point, and though the regular 1.4 petrol wasn't particularly powerful, it felt adequate at least.
I was pretty much set here, but my parents and sister suddenly decided they hated it. My dad's a big guy (6'2"), and didn't like the headroom, and the plastics (which I'd overlooked so far) didn't appeal to any of them. Sigh.

Then, the VW Vento. Looks great, nice brand. But what a dull cabin! There's no premium feel inside, even though it's solid, and the equipment list felt pretty poor. No one liked it much.

Next up was the new Hyundai Verna SX. Great showroom appeal: superb equipment list, looked nice, great interior feel. The downside (this was before I drove it) was the low rear seat, which had a claustrophobic feel. Still, it seemed great on paper, and then I drove it. Nice engine, everything felt good in the city (apart from the very soft suspension, which tends to make my sister car-sick). But at high speed - what on earth? It jiggles, wobbles, is never where you want it to be on the road, and loses grip when you brake. This didn't work at all. What a shame. Great car for people who want to be in the city, not one for someone who really enjoys driving, or who does a lot of highway driving.

It was just a bit of a mess at that point - I really needed a car, because my trusty old Getz was being used more and more by my sister, and I couldn't hang around waiting for cabs for months. I didn't want the SX4, never really fancied the car, and I didn't want any of the Tatas. I looked at the Polo again, and the only thing on the horizon was the new Fiesta. Being a Ford, I was pretty sure it'd handle well, and from the pics, it looked pretty nice. The only worries were about interior space and quality.

Then, a friend suggested the Optra. This was a car I'd practically forgotten, but from the website, it seemed intriguing. Lots of equipment, a decent price. Then I started reading up on it...

[SLK]

Originally Posted by oxyzen

That is a good piece of information. Where did you get it from?

To calculate V1000 you need lots of data
1) Gear ratio
2) Final drive Ratio
3) Wheel/Tyre size

I calculated these from Autocar test drive where max speed in each gear was mentioned. (Speedo error corrected). Also mentioned was the engine RPM.
Calculations pretty easy.

3-5 speedo error at 20KMPH? Speedo error is somewhere around (3-7)%.
That should come up to 1KMPH approx.

I own an Optra, and the manual had all this information about the gear ratios including the tyre size .

The speedo error number is assumed, though I have checked using GPS [on other cars] that these are not linear as in not a % of speed. For all operational speeds over 40km/h generally an error of 4-5 exists.

[oxyzen]

Originally Posted by SLK

I own an Optra, and the manual had all this information about the gear ratios including the tyre size.

Excellent Manual I must say.

Originally Posted by SLK

The speedo error number is assumed, though I have checked using GPS [on other cars] that these are not linear as in not a % of speed. For all operational speeds over 40km/h generally an error of 4-5 exists.

Really? Thats a lot.

I am sure the percieved lag in Optra is due to the tall gearing.
It is good that they have in fact geared the Beat diesel shorter.

BTW what id the Max RPM the optra can Revs freely to?