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Old 18th July 2010, 02:09   #31
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Sorry, but even i disagree.


So apart from buying an already expensive innova, we should spend more money peteing it to make it driveable? in that case, even a peted xylo would beat a peted innova.

i feel xylo is more fun to drive than an innova because the engine is much more tractable.
Engines alone dont make a car fun to drive. in that case a I20 diesel is way more fun to drive than a Polo 1.2 diesel as the power delivery is maddening. What matters is the overall feel and not the straight line drag.

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by the way, who goes cornering in a MUV? Muvs & SUVs are made for normal driving. and i disagree that high speed stability is good in innova. my innova "floats" on express highways at speeds above 120 kmph. not so in my scorpio.
It is good that you dont. Many do, sometimes intentionally, sometimes otherwise (dog on your lane when you are doing 120kmph). Last year my friend had a narrow escape when a scorpio, from the oncoming traffic overturned and nearly hit his Baleno.

For the floating feel, the Scorpio was always blamed in the past. Culprits being superlight steering and unsorted handling. I am surprised that you have thes same complaint in the Innova. I guess you should get wheel balancing and alignment done. Mine was found to be very stable till 156kmph - the max I have tried in the Innova.

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and this "car like" feel is so overhyped! why do you need a car like feel? i feel a car makes you feel puny & intimidated on our roads. whats wrong in the commanding position of the xylo as long as you are comfortable.
Totally depends. I drive to be comfortable and not intimidate anyone or get intimidated. And I have not had any intimidating exp in the Innova till now. The commanding position means your sit high with less stability and more body roll that can translate into fatigue over long Journeys.

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the car like feel of the innova means the dashboard is so high that it blocks your view of the bonnet & this infact is bad in bumper to bumper traffic. whats wrong in a clear view ahead?
The car like view improves aerodynamic stability. For INR 550 one can get a fender pole if one finds it difficult to ascertain Innova's Bumper location.

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point is it is not "slightly" subdued! the acceleration & driveability timings of scorpio/xylo is way better than innova.
Innova is not underpowered but definitely has lesser power in comparison. This is something that can definitely be and should be improved by toyota. Again, lower power means lower stress on the engine parts that probably explains the bulletproof reliability of Innova. Remember that the Qualis just had 76bhp in comparison to the Scorpio's 105 but still was the vehicle of choice for nearly double the clients.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 18th July 2010 at 02:20.
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Old 18th July 2010, 03:38   #32
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For more than 5 people capability, I'd recommend the Grande Mark -II. It is very comfortable for a large number of passengers and it's quite easy to drive in the city as well (due to the smaller turning radius).

If however, the number of passengers is usually not more than 5, the Bolero common rail (though overpriced) makes for a good buy. I preferred the styling of the older version, but I still think that the proportions of the vehicle are better than the Grande, the less said about the Xylo, the better.
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Old 18th July 2010, 10:08   #33
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Originally Posted by Buffetfan View Post
Engines alone dont make a car fun to drive. in that case a I20 diesel is way more fun to drive than a Polo 1.2 diesel as the power delivery is maddening. What matters is the overall feel and not the straight line drag.
totally agree. but again i am not talking about a straight line performance, i am talking about the better driveabilty timings which xylo has when compared to the innova which means lesser gear changes & more comfort.

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It is good that you dont. Many do, sometimes intentionally, sometimes otherwise (dog on your lane when you are doing 120kmph). Last year my friend had a narrow escape when a scorpio, from the oncoming traffic overturned and nearly hit his Baleno.
again this is overhyped. a scorpio or xylo wont overturn until & unless you do something really nasty like a sharp turn with hard braking at 150!

Quote:
For the floating feel, the Scorpio was always blamed in the past. Culprits being superlight steering and unsorted handling. I am surprised that you have thes same complaint in the Innova. I guess you should get wheel balancing and alignment done. Mine was found to be very stable till 156kmph - the max I have tried in the Innova.
talking about wheel balancing & alignment in the innova, we got it done thrice, that too at the A.S.S, the SA came with us for a highway drive & assured us that all innovas are like this. we even drove their TD vehicle & found this to be true.

i dont know how many would agree, but for me, a scorpio is more comfortable & stable at high speeds than the innova, unless & until you act crazy! even my driver prefers to take my scorpio for highway drives rather than the innova!

in his layman language, he says, "gaddi road pakadke chalta hain". translates to "the vehicle is stable at speeds".

again, either TD both back to back on the same stretch or ask someone who has a mHawk & innova, they will give you a fair comparison. general mindset is that the innova being a "toyota" is bound to be more stable than a "mahindra"!!!

anyways, discussing about stability of scorpio is irrelevant here. and i have not driven a xylo at high speeds.

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Totally depends. I drive to be comfortable and not intimidate anyone or get intimidated. And I have not had any intimidating exp in the Innova till now. The commanding position means your sit high with less stability and more body roll that can translate into fatigue over long Journeys.
you got me wrong. i dint mean that you can buy a scorpio/xylo & start intimidating everyone on the road. but the high seating position is preferred by many as it makes driving so much easier. the low seating postion is preferred by those who like to drive fast & hence require less body roll.

Quote:
The car like view improves aerodynamic stability. For INR 550 one can get a fender pole if one finds it difficult to ascertain Innova's Bumper location.
fender pole? and make the car look like a taxi? anyways, we should be comparing stock characteristics.

Quote:
Innova is not underpowered but definitely has lesser power in comparison. This is something that can definitely be and should be improved by toyota.
IMO, it is. my innova struggles going uphill with 7 people on board & little luggage. it has to be revved in second gear to gain little momentum.

Quote:
Again, lower power means lower stress on the engine parts that probably explains the bulletproof reliability of Innova. Remember that the Qualis just had 76bhp in comparison to the Scorpio's 105 but still was the vehicle of choice for nearly double the clients.
now what logic is this? then every other car from hondas to bentleys should have underpowered engines! so do you mean powerful vehicles are not reliable?

Last edited by raj_5004 : 18th July 2010 at 10:24.
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Old 18th July 2010, 17:14   #34
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Sorry People, i posted it long back and never visited

Will get back with the answers for your questions
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Old 18th July 2010, 23:56   #35
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I did a TD back to back today with a new Scorpio VLX and my Innova as Mahindra had put up a stall in our gated community today.


Handling : My comments about the cornering stability remain as the body roll in the Scorpio is still substantially higher then innova, especially during high speed lane cuts. But the tires grip very well in a straight line and the low speed ride is better than the Innova. Note that I have 225/60 tires in my innova and hence cannot comment much on how the stock Innova tires perform. The ones I have grip very well and the car stops pretty soon.

Engine : The Scorpio engine is definitely a class apart in terms of pickup and drivability compared to the Innova. The vehicle pulls like a locomotive and never feels underpowered. It is also more silent of the two. on the otherhand the Innova gearbox shifts very smoothly compared to the Scorp tranny.

Scorpio also offers cruise control that I could not test but can be a boon on some of the 4 lane roads.

No idea about long term performance of Scorpio. Have seen quite a few Innovas @ 2 lakh kms with the Engine still performing as if it was new.

Living Inside it : Again, Scorpio suffers from lack of attention to detail - both vehicles have audio controls on the steering. But if you have used the ones on the Innova steering you will find the scorpio controls worse in comparison. For example, the innova has a convex finish for the side that increases volume and concave finish for the side that decreases it.

I have a size 10.5-11 foot and found the footwell lacking in space and was not able to find a comfortable driving position in the Scorpio. Guess it is all a matter of time but was unable to find it in the 20 mins of TD

Finally the light beige interiors of the Innova with the fake wood finish look far more classy than the dark plastics that do duty in the Scorpio.

Visibility : Visibility of the front is far better in Scorpio compared to the innova where you have to do a approximation of where the front end ends.

Space : Innova scores big time as every person in the Innova , including those in the front get more room compared to similarly placed passangers in the Scorpio . The Scorp last row is very difficult to use for long journeys expecially with side facing seats.

Did not TD Xylo this time as had done it earlier and found the handling wanting.

Additionally was not impressed with the excessive body roll that we found in a Taxi that we had hired last fortnight in Delhi /Meerut. The last row of Xylo is defn better than the Innova but then the last row of Innova is pretty usable with split folding option and even with all onboard, there is a Santro size boot available. In the Xylo you carry your luggage on your lap if all seats are used. Finally split folding rear seats in the Innova means that with 6 passengers on board, you can fold one half of the rear most seat and have enough space in the care created for 6 persons and ltheir uggage.

In the Xylo you need to take the entire seat out thereby giving a strict 5 seater or 8 seater option only.

Net net, I am happy with my Innova. Others are happy with the Scorpios and Xylos they have. All seem very competent vehicles that offer different things to different people.

Note : the scorp on test drive was not a test drive vehicle but one that seemed destined to some customer (with the Odo switched off). Same was the case with the Xylo that I TDed in the past. On the other hand, Toyota strictly sends only TD vehicles for test drives to make sure every customer gets a factory fresh vehicle that has not been TDed by all sorts of drivers before it is delivered to you.

I think that I am taking the discussion bit off topic here as I did not write a word about the Bolero. Last time I drove Bolero was 8 years ago and hence my comments are on that model while the new one might have evolved further.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 19th July 2010 at 00:15.
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Old 19th July 2010, 10:05   #36
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@ buffetfan: great buddy, now i "agree" to each & every word you have mentioned! also since you have driven both the cars now, you got a clear picture of what are its pros & cons, respective of each other. totally frank & unbiased review. some points-

1) i thought i am the only one who felt that the low speed ride was better in the scorpio than my innova! many friends & some BHPians too have ridiculed me for saying this!

2) same goes for the refinement. if you notice, not only is the scorpio's engine more refined, but the scorpio's cabin is more silent from the outside noise & tyre noise compared to an innova. again, this was accepted by none!

3) do you have a innova V? both the non-ABS scorpio & innova are pathetic in braking.

4) regarding engine reliability, rest assured the scorpio's & xylo's engine will run for lakhs of kms, wont comment the same about the rest of the car! though i do have a scorpio which has clocked close to 2L kms.

5) attention to detail & space is bad in the scorpio. also, the innova's interiors look & feel much more classy. but then, you are paying 2 lakhs more for the innova!
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Old 19th July 2010, 10:44   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
@ buffetfan: great buddy, now i "agree" to each & every word you have mentioned! also since you have driven both the cars now, you got a clear picture of what are its pros & cons, respective of each other. totally frank & unbiased review. some points-

1) i thought i am the only one who felt that the low speed ride was better in the scorpio than my innova! many friends & some BHPians too have ridiculed me for saying this!
Low speed ride in the Scorp I drove was better than the Innova. Not a sea of difference but better. Innova has a firm (not overly Stiff) low speed ride that is not bone jarring but I guess is required to keep the high speed body control under check.
Quote:

2) same goes for the refinement. if you notice, not only is the scorpio's engine more refined, but the scorpio's cabin is more silent from the outside noise & tyre noise compared to an innova. again, this was accepted by none!
Agree
Quote:

3) do you have a innova V? both the non-ABS scorpio & innova are pathetic in braking.
I have a VX with ABS (that replaced the pre 2009 V). The brakes are better than the Baleno I have and the Vehicle stops at will. Maybe the 225/60 Yoko C.Drives contribute a great deal here.

Quote:
4) regarding engine reliability, rest assured the scorpio's & xylo's engine will run for lakhs of kms, wont comment the same about the rest of the car! though i do have a scorpio which has clocked close to 2L kms.
My guess is that in the overall maintenance department, the Innova has the edge. On the other Hand, scorpio drivers seem to love the Vehicle. My uncle who is a Doctor is now onto his third scrorpio in the last 10 years. He changes his car every 3 years and seems to love this model.
Quote:

5) attention to detail & space is bad in the scorpio. also, the innova's interiors look & feel much more classy. but then, you are paying 2 lakhs more for the innova!

The model I drive was about Rs 1.7 lakhs lower than that equivalent Innova. Innova 14.3 Lakhs versus Scorpio RS 12.65 Lakhs.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 19th July 2010 at 10:47.
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Old 19th July 2010, 10:57   #38
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Originally Posted by Buffetfan View Post
Low speed ride in the Scorp I drove was better than the Innova. Not a sea of difference but better. Innova has a firm (not overly Stiff) low speed ride that is not bone jarring but I guess is required to keep the high speed body control under check.
True. you either get better handling or better ride. i choose ride.

Quote:
I have a VX with ABS (that replaced the pre 2009 V). The brakes are better than the Baleno I have and the Vehicle stops at will. Maybe the 225/60 Yoko C.Drives contribute a great deal here.
brakes in innova with ABS is very good. even i have yoko C drives in my innova.

Quote:
My guess is that in the overall maintenance department, the Innova has the edge. On the other Hand, scorpio drivers seem to love the Vehicle. My uncle who is a Doctor is now onto his third scrorpio in the last 10 years. He changes his car every 3 years and seems to love this model.
same here. once a scorpio, always a scorpio! this is my 3rd scorpio too. there is something about this car which makes you feel other cars are simply too boring! no offence meant to anyone.
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Old 19th July 2010, 13:51   #39
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Originally Posted by Buffetfan View Post
I have a size 10.5-11 foot and found the footwell lacking in space and was not able to find a comfortable driving position in the Scorpio. Guess it is all a matter of time but was unable to find it in the 20 mins of TD

The last row of Xylo is defn better than the Innova but then the last row of Innova is pretty usable with split folding option and even with all onboard, there is a Santro size boot available. In the Xylo you carry your luggage on your lap if all seats are used. Finally split folding rear seats in the Innova means that with 6 passengers on board, you can fold one half of the rear most seat and have enough space in the care created for 6 persons and ltheir uggage.
I completely agree with Buffet fan on the interior space issue of the Scorpio. This vehicle is really cramped inside. I have used mine for 10K kilometers and every morning when I get it, I keep trying to find a comfortable position . If you park Scoprio and Safari, side by side and move from one drivers seat to another, you will know what I mean.

I have the front facing third row for my Scorpio and there is not enough place to even fold the third row to a vertical position without folding the middle row first and if you are using all three rows, there is place for only a few plastic bags or two small laptop bags behind the third row. A roof carrier is a must if you want to use all three rows of seats for the front facing third row version.
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Old 19th July 2010, 15:11   #40
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Damn, how could I miss a thread where Bolero's are discussed

Well as an experienced Bolero STORM owner, I can only tell you this that its not for everybody. I would like to know what would be your friend's usage pattern before suggesting anything.


P.S: I'm not saying that the Bolero is the safest vehicle around but over the past few months, lot of HYD TBHP-ians have driven my Storm and have been pleasantly surprised. One such comment

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Yes it was indeed a fabulous meet. The highlights were the drive to and from the meet on the ORR. The onward journey saw me watching Ravvs redlining his Palio GTX, while on the return it was with turbo-charged MC driving his turbo-charged Storm at 140 on the ORR.

Thankfully, he handed over the wheel of the Storm to me a little ahead, and I had a good time on it till the other end of the ORR. Contrary to my expectation, except the high amount of body roll, the Storm was quite refined and agile. It was also a great weapon to intimidate auto-wallahs on city roads.
This statement is from a person who drives a Fiesta SXI. So I would humbly request people to look at a product more closely than dismissing it outright.
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Old 26th July 2010, 22:17   #41
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@Buffetfan


Quote:
Engine : The Scorpio engine is definitely a class apart in terms of pickup and drivability compared to the Innova. The vehicle pulls like a locomotive and never feels underpowered. It is also more silent of the two. on the otherhand the Innova gearbox shifts very smoothly compared to the Scorp tranny.
Last week i traveled in my friends scorpio and that was the first time i was driven in a Mhawk.I love that engines pick up,MAN it was like travelling in my swift VDI,it has lots of power.




Quote:
Scorpio also offers cruise control that I could not test but can be a boon on some of the 4 lane roads
.

I didnt know that

Quote:
No idea about long term performance of Scorpio. Have seen quite a few Innovas @ 2 lakh kms with the Engine still performing as if it was new.
Now a days all engines last till about 1 - 1.5 L kms.Well i am surprised that my dad's 99 santro has done 217000km with one overhaul.

[
Quote:
B]Living Inside it :[/b] Again, Scorpio suffers from lack of attention to detail - both vehicles have audio controls on the steering. But if you have used the ones on the Innova steering you will find the scorpio controls worse in comparison. For example, the innova has a convex finish for the side that increases volume and concave finish for the side that decreases it.
Quote:
Space : Innova scores big time as every person in the Innova , including those in the front get more room compared to similarly placed passangers in the Scorpio . The Scorp last row is very difficult to use for long journeys expecially with side facing seats.
The above two are the worst part of the scorpio.That too me being 6.1 Ft almost all cars are not comfortable for me,and Innova is an exception
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Old 3rd August 2010, 22:37   #42
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Sorry People, i posted it long back and never visited

Will get back with the answers for your questions
Ok now here are the next set of doubts from my friend who is planning to buy the Bolero. Milecruncher am awaiting your advice too

Quote:
my basic usage pattern goes like this:
  • very less of city driving - 10-15%
  • mostly bangalore - chennai runs
  • thrice yearly we go to kerala
  • and now that i have free time (being unemployed) i intend to explore the length & breadth of south India
mod - ideas
  • alloys
  • spare wheel shifted to top
  • more comfortable seats and driving position, especially the pedals are a little high for me
  • performance mods after thorough research
need reasonable maintenance costs - a projection of milestones for service and approx cost would be great!

i have driven the innova a lot. i love travelling in it, but not driving it... too much like the swift in the "car like feel"
scorpio - well, not too comfortable to travel, dont know drive quality
xylo - overpriced at 9.8L, cheap plastics & interiors will have to spend on leather if i have to endure it. drive quality is good, quite carlike and comfortable overall.
but bolero stands out as the "no frills" macho and refined jeep.

a major concern is my back on long journeys...

bhpians lost out on the major point in question how to make the bolero more comfortable. i TD-ed both DI-turbo and crdi, crdi runs like a dream. but am doubtful if it is required with out an ABS and better suspension.

any way, i do look forward to your advice.

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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:09   #43
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Originally Posted by joshguy View Post
Ok now here are the next set of doubts from my friend who is planning to buy the Bolero. Milecruncher am awaiting your advice too
My answers below: in bold
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshguy View Post
my basic usage pattern goes like this:
  • very less of city driving - 10-15%
  • mostly bangalore - chennai runs
  • thrice yearly we go to kerala
  • and now that i have free time (being unemployed) i intend to explore the length & breadth of south India
I'm sure all the given vehicles can do the above without breaking a sweat. So can the Bolero.

My understanding would be that you are talking about mods on the Bolero. My responses here as under

mod - ideas
  • alloys - If you are going to continuously driving high speed over bad /potholed roads, I wouldn't suggest it
  • spare wheel shifted to top - Why would you want to do that. The Tyre is at a least obtrusive position. Shifting on top would block your way for having a luggage carrier and in case of puncture, very hard to get.
  • more comfortable seats and driving position, especially the pedals are a little high for me Well you can change the front seats, but nothing can be done for the pedals.
  • performance mods after thorough research On the CRDe, the simplest mod to bumpup 15 BHP is plonking the XYLO ECM. You can change the axle ratio to 4.3 to improve acceleration also.
need reasonable maintenance costs - a projection of milestones for service and approx cost would be great! - In the CRDe, 1st service is at 5K and thereafter only at 15k interval fluid change.

Bolero stands out as the "no frills" macho and refined jeep. - Well that's what it is.

a major concern is my back on long journeys - I'm not sure how helpful will

bhpians lost out on the major point in question how to make the bolero more comfortable. i TD-ed both DI-turbo and crdi, crdi runs like a dream. but am doubtful if it is required with out an ABS and better suspension.-I'm not sure what you mean by more comfortable? Are you talking about seats of ride quality in general?
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Old 4th August 2010, 08:12   #44
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Mile cruncher thanks for the inputs,will ask my friend to read the thread and give the feedback

Quote:
bhpians lost out on the major point in question how to make the bolero more comfortable. i TD-ed both DI-turbo and crdi, crdi runs like a dream. but am doubtful if it is required with out an ABS and better suspension.-I'm not sure what you mean by more comfortable? Are you talking about seats of ride quality in general?
Yes he is talking about the ride quality in general.I guess CFL should take care of it,but any idea how much it costs?
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Old 4th August 2010, 08:53   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshguy View Post

Yes he is talking about the ride quality in general.I guess CFL should take care of it,but any idea how much it costs?
You can improve the ride dynamics by either changing the leafs to CFL (Costs about 25k IIRC) or changing the shockers to Bilstein.

Either of the mod job will nullify your warranty on the whole suspension.Please do keep that in mind.
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