[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ringoism

There is definitely no risk of engine damage

For what it is worth, I have driven about 60,000 kilometers with my 2013 Thar with the air mass sensor unplugged and EGR blocked off....absolutely no problems.

I have driven about 35,000 kilos on my 2018 Thar with the air mass sensor unplugged and the EGR blocked....absolutely no problems.

I get a big increase in responsiveness and a very noticeable increase in rate of acceleration.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

I have driven about 60,000 kilometers with my 2013 Thar with the air mass sensor unplugged and EGR blocked off....absolutely no problems.

Thanks Ken, was thinking of you when re-reading this thread, glad to see you're still active here. Had seen your similar comment earlier.

I looked into the official (PDF) service manual for Getaway, realized it's NOT a full 5v signal that gets sent to the ECU when MAF disconnected, as some here claimed. What actually happens is that when the ECU doesn't receive an airfllow signal in the expected range of 0.5-5v, it is just switching to a default map which assumes: 1) 20°C ambient on the integrated temp sensor (which is close enough a good part of each year in the hills), and 2) "normal" fuel metering based on engine rpm and throttle position. Being that engine displacement is a fixed volume, then assuming a fresh air filter, unclogged intercooler, and decent overall engine condition, this assumed default airflow should be reasonably close to ideal within a moderate altitude range with "average" weather conditions, etc, etc.

Everything here then points to OE mapping problems, not hardware. We should remember that this development happened pre-Three Idiots, hill touring was more limited. And most hill folk themselves were more pragmatic on one hand and typically lower-income on the other, and would have favored (as many still do) more rugged vehicles and the good old DI's of whatever form than Scorps and CRDe Thars, which at some level (good as they are) really were originally intended for greater comfort, quiet refinement - and posing!

For the <5% of customers who were going to drive the hills in a CRDe, it probably wasn't deemed necessary to send teams to do the extended R&D, etc. As you mentioned, down in Punjab people loved these, had no issues.

Maybe therefore Team Mahindra, without much actual testing and tweaking, just got the fuelling compensation for altitude totally wrong, such that the default map runs better.

It is also possible that even BS3 norms weren't so easy to conform to with that particular engine (though DI's did it with full manual fuel systems and longer strokes), and that they were simply forced into compromises.

Whatever, on a well-maintained car running at anything but extreme altitudes/ temps, the map should be expected to run fine and is not going to damage things any more than running carburetors and manual diesel injection pumps would have in the day, 99+% of which never were compensated for altitude & temp! Throughout most of automotive history, vehicles ran on mechanically-fixed "default maps" pretty well most of the time with no issues - and that's what a CRDe with a disconnected MAF/temp sensor gives us!

Btw I am doubtful now that adding a resistor in the MAF wiring (as a few mentioned incl. me!) would help matters - because if the voltage output isn't within the specified range, a code will trigger, and it's going to switch into the same default map anyway. Depends how far away airflow at idle /max speeds put us away from 0.5v or 5v in unaltered form I guess, could be a little wiggle room there that could make a difference but may or may not be enough to make a real impact. Worth a look maybe, will try and measure this real-world operational voltage range one day.

Anyway this "Everymod" that some of the VAG guys are doing on YT generally appears to add the resistor to the fuel rail pressure sensor, which tricks the ECU into thinking pressure is lower than actual and that it must compensate by increasing pump output pressure and/or lengthening injector pulse width. Tuning boxes do the same in a potentially more sophisticated way. Hence more power - and smoke, and presumably fuel consumption when "in it", depending how badly you try and trick it or how smart the tuning box maps are.

I was wondering how your Thars have run at really high altitudes and/or really extreme temps.

I'd imagine that without mass airflow compensation, engine would run a bit too rich at high altitude. And without temp info would assume less dense air than actual at super low temps and meter too little fuel. Which come to think of it might help winter FE at the expense of some peak power.

Technically the wire to the airflow portion only could probably be clipped / have a switch added, and the temp signal lead left alone if that seemed beneficial. Pinouts are there in the manual, it would be an easy job if selectable normal (closed-loop) operation was sometimes desired or offered benefits in FE or whatever.

Whatever, it's really a shame it wasn't mapped right WITH the compensation functional. Getaway runs so effortlessly and transparently now, no need to downshift all the time below 1500-1600 rpm's, no need of severe clutch abuse, can lug it down easily to 1000-1200rpms and it will pull cleanly from there. Still no real power till boost comes in till later, but at least it isn't faltering / falling on its face anymore. And I think I'll almost never have to use 4Low just for getting started on inclines now.

Wish I'd done this earlier, wifey wouldn't have roasted the clutch that fateful night, and I'd have saved ₹4600 on the new disc...

-Eric

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by abhikb

On highway drives earlier it used to cruise at 80kmph/2000rpm, there’s a slight bump in this with speeds ranging at 85-90kmph at 2000rpm.

This change in speed at rpm is simply not possible without a change in gear ratios / tyre sizes.

UNLESS the re-mappers fiddled with the speedometer sensor input. I hope this wasn't their method of (apparently) reducing 0-100kmph times and increasing FE!!!

Are you 100% sure this change occurred? Bit suspect!

I'm glad, however, that the remap worked well for you driveability-wise, I keep thinking of getting this done on the Getaway - though a FE bias would be very helpful in my case.

-Eric

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by KA09_BIKER_GPER

Hey DirtyDan, I just tried this on my 2015 CRDe. I think it has the same EGR as the latest model. Earlier I disconnected just the MAF and the result was really good. However I reverted as there was too much smoke at low rpm.

Today I tried disconnecting MAF and also the vacuum hose to the EGR. The result was same but there less smoke at low rpm. I need to do a long drive to confirm this.

I wanted to understand why you put a blocking plate. I am under the assumption that removal of vacuum hose will keep the EGR valve shut and prevent exhaust gas recirculation. Correct me if I am wrong.

Hi again,

Have you continued driving this way with just the vacuum hose unplugged? How has it been so far? I assume you have disconnected the MAF sensor as well. I have the same vintage Thar as yours, hence the ask...

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

For what it is worth, I have driven about 60,000 kilometers with my 2013 Thar with the air mass sensor unplugged and EGR blocked off....absolutely no problems.

Interesting, all what you are doing is spewing more NOx to the atmosphere. EGR addresses the problem of controlling NOx emissions inside the engine cylinder, at the point where NOx forms. Without EGR, the engine will run hotter and more NOx will be produced, since it is directly proportional to the temperature of the combustion, which would eventually mean higher PM2.5. Exhaust gas with fresh air makes it run cooler in the combustion chamber and thus lowering the NOx produced.

I guess both of your vehicles aren't with DPF, else you would be clogging them at regular intervals. You might get adequate power but definitely at the cost of reduced fuel efficiency, its there because a proper design creates a delicate balance between efficiency and environ norms. Your catalytic convertor might be working over time and without MAF, you would be running the engine richer or leaner with no control, I'm surprised that the ECU is not throwing any fault on the cluster without MAF, my intake air-hose got disconnected once, during the drive and there was immediately check engine light on the cluster and the car went into the limp mode.

Also I would like to know, how does you PUC check goes ?

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

.. I'm surprised that the ECU is not throwing any fault on the cluster without MAF, my intake air-hose got disconnected once, during the drive and there was immediately check engine light on the cluster and the car went into the limp mode.

I am not surprised. You are forgetting that the production of anti-pollution equipment also has an environmental impact of considerable size. Good sir, I give you credit for being one of the "good guys" in the oil and gas industry and an environmental champion of sorts....but so am I mostly, and I disagree with you on much of what you have said here and/or find it myopic.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

The results are VERY satisfying. Instant horse power. I did something similar
to my 2013 Thar CRDe a year ago and also got great results. The EGRs of the two vehicles are different. My 2013 EGR just needed a little educated unplugging.

Is it possible for you to tell/educate us/me what you did to unplug the EGR? 2015 pre facelift here so I suppose shares more with your 2013 than with the 2018.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Is it possible for you to tell/educate us/me what you did to unplug the EGR? 2015 pre facelift here so I suppose shares more with your 2013 than with the 2018.

It's been some years so I have flat forgotten exactly. I talked to my mechanic, who also does not exactly remember, and he thinks it was just a matter of unplugging an electrical wire to the EGR and trusting that this makes the EGR valve shut in the closed position....in most cases.

I know, not the certainty you would like. I can tell you that the combination of unplugging the air mass sensor and the EGR feels like adding another 20-25 horsepower and that I have had absolutely no bad side effects from doing so over thousands upon thousands of kilometers on both my 2013 Thar and my 2018 Thar.

[x-o-b]

Hello fellas,

I own a 2017 Thar CRDe and I live in Sikkim (all hills - off-road style roads everywhere).
It is true that the Thar CRDe struggles with torque at low RPMs (low end grunt). I have been following this thread and have implemented some useful mods notably the EGR delete and Air Flow Sensor unplug.

Since my Thar CRDe is so much similar to Scorpio 2.6 CRDe, and since it has been very well established that the ECU mapping has been the "root-cause" for this poor hill low end torque issue, I had an idea. Pardon my ignorance and let me know why the following wouldn't work:-

"Can't I simply swap my Thar ECM with a Scorpio 2.6 CRDe ECM?"

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

"Can't I simply swap my Thar ECM with a Scorpio 2.6 CRDe ECM?"

Unfortunately no. For that matter, you cant swap a different Thar ECM into your Thar.

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Unfortunately no. For that matter, you cant swap a different Thar ECM into your Thar.

The ECM must be locked onto my car's VIN (and car key and immobilizer) I guess. So, we "cannot" simply plug and play, I am sure. But, is this totally "impossible" to achieve? New key codes are easily programmed into the ECM by car key makers (I saw some in the streets of Delhi), so can't the VIN be programmed as well. My apologies if I seem to sound so naive here.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

The ECM must be locked onto my car's VIN (and car key and immobilizer) I guess. So, we "cannot" simply plug and play, I am sure. But, is this totally "impossible" to achieve? New key codes are easily programmed into the ECM by car key makers (I saw some in the streets of Delhi), so can't the VIN be programmed as well. My apologies if I seem to sound so naive here.

If you are on the way to get a new ECU, hack into it, then why not use the same resources to reprogram the maps in your current ECM and get better peformance out of it.

The things discussed here are for people who dont want to go that way..

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

If you are on the way to get a new ECU, hack into it, then why not use the same resources to reprogram the maps in your current ECM and get better peformance out of it.

The things discussed here are for people who dont want to go that way..

I was guessing (and forgive my ignorance) that since the Scorpio 2.6 and Thar CRDe are so much similar and since the Scorpio has no such issue, I thought a direct swap would be best (if possible). Alas, I realize it's just my wishful thinking. Thanks for your valid inputs.

[abhikb]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

Hello fellas,

I own a 2017 Thar CRDe and I live in Sikkim (all hills - off-road style roads everywhere).
It is true that the Thar CRDe struggles with torque at low RPMs (low end grunt). I have been following this thread and have implemented some useful mods notably the EGR delete and Air Flow Sensor unplug.

Since my Thar CRDe is so much similar to Scorpio 2.6 CRDe, and since it has been very well established that the ECU mapping has been the "root-cause" for this poor hill low end torque issue, I had an idea. Pardon my ignorance and let me know why the following wouldn't work:-

"Can't I simply swap my Thar ECM with a Scorpio 2.6 CRDe ECM?"

Go for stage 1 tuning, I faced this similar issue earlier, the remap has worked as a savior. Got it done at around 47k Kms/2 years ago, currently, at 93k Kms it’s holding up pretty well and the issue of slow Low end torque especially in the hills is gone.

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by abhikb

Go for stage 1 tuning, I faced this similar issue earlier, the remap has worked as a savior. Got it done at around 47k Kms/2 years ago, currently, at 93k Kms it’s holding up pretty well and the issue of slow Low end torque especially in the hills is gone.

Where could I get this done? I mean, their website is down and driving all the way to Gujarat from Sikkim seems like quite a task.

Have you blanked out the EGR and unplugged the AMS connector after the remap? Had it been done so anytime before/after?


Oh, I just remembered how I envy the Innova plying in Sikkim. They overtake almost every vehicle given a slight chance, at any point of time irrespective of the speed at which they are driving. I know it isn't the driver because all Innovas wizz through as if they were behind a driving simulator steering wheel.

Is the Innova's performance at low RPMs the secret here, or are there many other factors involved in the beast's performance? The only time I could keep up with these Innovas was when I was driving a Hyundai Venue Facelift (2022 version) once.