Gypsy '09 Heating problems!

nitrous · 23rd March 2010, 19:16

I had this same problem when I fitted an aftermarket superking AC in my Sumo, a decade back.
The problem minimized when I fitted a shroud to the fan. And I did not upsize the radiator.

It would still heat when I'm driving on hills, or on the highway (high rpm since I have a pretty short ratio in the Sumo).

The diagnosis is simple: The condenser is restricting air flow to the radiator because its sitting right in front of it.
Solution I found for my car: Relocate the condenser to below the radiator in such a way it won't be vertical anymore. It would be at an angle near horizontal (30-40 degrees would be good) depending on vehicle.
I never did it since I retired the vehicle to just city use.
I don't know if this is viable with the gypsy if you're going to offroad. It might get damaged at approach.

moralfibre · 24th March 2010, 09:48

Engine Overheating Causes & Cures

I think you have a blown head gasket. Can you check? What's the latest on this issue?

GoSlow · 24th March 2010, 14:47

Hi

Here are pics of the AC radiator fitted underneath my Gypsy. There are two electric fans above it as well. I struggled with the samde problem as yours for many years before taking this route and now everything works fine. Hope it helps.

I am a member of NIOC which and have done lots of challenging OTRs. None of this setup has been an issue.

Cheers
Ankit

tsk1979 · 24th March 2010, 15:58

Did you get this done from Sai in sector 16. This setup has AC sitting above the prop shaft. So I guess, unless you hit something so big that it actually damages the prop shaft, the AC is safe.
Another way to protect it would be to fit a sheet with holes(aluminum sheet?) above the prop shaft which can act as a skid plate for the AC.

SPIKE ARRESTOR · 24th March 2010, 19:08

@Ankit still i would recommend you to fabricate something similar to a skid plate, covering the fin area, what do you say?

Spike

harjeev · 24th March 2010, 19:21

@Ankit
Have you get the air con serviced and running??? Because last I remember it wasn't running.

Further was first the condenser in front of the radiator. Additionally I remember at the Chandigarh OTR last year the aircon was not on and still your gypsy was overheating in 4x4 H/L and you had changed the radiator to get that sorted out.
Any conclusions why was that?

COUGAR · 25th March 2010, 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoSlow

Hi

hmm naaish! +1 to the skid plate idea.

How are the pipes routed?

DirtyDan · 25th March 2010, 07:19

The man said that the HIGH SPEED heating problem STOPS when he turns off the a/c. When there is no a/c going, there is no problem. Therefore placement of components is not the issue; and air flow is ok.

There is no problem at low speed or stopped in traffic. This is the greatest heat producing situation and his current configuration is handling this heat.

So, what is there about the a/c compressor running at high rpm that causes over heating? You would not think the addtional load of the a/c would be enough to cause the problem since low speed testing shows it is ok.

1.) Does this compressor have clutches that are supposed kick down or off at certain situations? Are they doing so?

2.) If you put 6 people or a heavy load in this gypsy, will it overheat at high speed with the a/c turned off? This will test the effect of additional load on the heating/cooling system.

3.) I presume there is a separate belt running the compressor? Belt slippage e.g. to the water pump, bad belt tensioner might cause the problem.

scooby05 · 29th March 2010, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

The man said that the HIGH SPEED heating problem STOPS when he turns off the a/c. When there is no a/c going, there is no problem. Therefore placement of components is not the issue; and air flow is ok.

There is no problem at low speed or stopped in traffic. This is the greatest heat producing situation and his current configuration is handling this heat.

So, what is there about the a/c compressor running at high rpm that causes over heating? You would not think the addtional load of the a/c would be enough to cause the problem since low speed testing shows it is ok.

1.) Does this compressor have clutches that are supposed kick down or off at certain situations? Are they doing so?

2.) If you put 6 people or a heavy load in this gypsy, will it overheat at high speed with the a/c turned off? This will test the effect of additional load on the heating/cooling system.

3.) I presume there is a separate belt running the compressor? Belt slippage e.g. to the water pump, bad belt tensioner might cause the problem.

Dan you have understood the matter perfect. It is Heating With AC ONLY at high engine rpm, static or moving vehicle. Without AC at any rpm it does not heat.
The compressor runs on a seperate belt that drives the compressor and ps pump, while the original belt runs the water pump and alternator, and tensioning of both are perfect, and no slippage.
The water pump is perfect and causes big movement waves and gushes in the radiator top tank when viewed without the cap. Even at High rpm the water pump does not foul.
drove back vehicle yesterday and touched 110kmph on Expressway so enough power, so Gasket seems perfect, no warpage on head.
So what could it be? slow speed with AC there is no heating AT ALL!!

VEA · 29th March 2010, 14:41

At the risk of sounding an idiot, let me ask you one thing scooby. You are not running in 4wd low over 50 kmph. are you?

scooby05 · 29th March 2010, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEA

At the risk of sounding an idiot, let me ask you one thing scooby. You are not running in 4wd low over 50 kmph. are you?

No Sir, Its Heating even at Standstill at Very High RPM.

Sutripta · 29th March 2010, 22:45

Hi,
I might be sounding like a cracked record, but would still suggest you start from a known point + only one unknown at a time. In your case it means original radiator, fan etc + AC (without electric fan). Otherwise there's a high chance you'll be like a dog chasing its own tail.

Are the fins of the condenser and radiator parallel to or perpendicular to each other?
What is the gap between the two?
Is there a gap between the electric fan and condenser?
Is the electric motor a flat pancake one, or a normal pipe shaped one?

Pictures please.

Regards
Sutripta

DirtyDan · 30th March 2010, 04:13

Your water pump may be marginal, your test did not convince me that it is okay. Have a mechanic check the weep hole.

One way to test it is to get 4-6 friends to sit in your gypsy while you drive with the a/c OFF at high speed. See if it heats up. Even if it is not the WP, this test may point to something else.

COUGAR · 30th March 2010, 06:03

sorry to be the party pooper boys, but this doesnt sound like the AC is the problem here!

I had a similar problem with my old M-800, also 5-speed MPFI: the damn thing would overheat so much that the coolant would be boiling and steam poured out of the bonnets!

Problem was traced to a faulty fan/coolant pump that switched off at higher RPM's. My mech told me "common problem with MPFI 800".

I think it could be something similar here.

scooby05 · 30th March 2010, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Your water pump may be marginal, your test did not convince me that it is okay. Have a mechanic check the weep hole.

One way to test it is to get 4-6 friends to sit in your gypsy while you drive with the a/c OFF at high speed. See if it heats up. Even if it is not the WP, this test may point to something else.

What is a weep hole?

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUGAR

sorry to be the party pooper boys, but this doesnt sound like the AC is the problem here!

I had a similar problem with my old M-800, also 5-speed MPFI: the damn thing would overheat so much that the coolant would be boiling and steam poured out of the bonnets!
Problem was traced to a faulty fan/coolant pump that switched off at higher RPM's. My mech told me "common problem with MPFI 800".

I think it could be something similar here.

Both the electric fans and the water pump work fully at high rpm, checked.

23rd March 2010, 19:16	#61
nitrous Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: UAE/Lon/Madras Posts: 6,965 Thanked: 325 Times View My Garage	I had this same problem when I fitted an aftermarket superking AC in my Sumo, a decade back. The problem minimized when I fitted a shroud to the fan. And I did not upsize the radiator. It would still heat when I'm driving on hills, or on the highway (high rpm since I have a pretty short ratio in the Sumo). The diagnosis is simple: The condenser is restricting air flow to the radiator because its sitting right in front of it. Solution I found for my car: Relocate the condenser to below the radiator in such a way it won't be vertical anymore. It would be at an angle near horizontal (30-40 degrees would be good) depending on vehicle. I never did it since I retired the vehicle to just city use. I don't know if this is viable with the gypsy if you're going to offroad. It might get damaged at approach.
	() Thanks

24th March 2010, 09:48	#62
moralfibre Team-BHP Support Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: MH-12 Posts: 8,451 Thanked: 13,973 Times	Engine Overheating Causes & Cures I think you have a blown head gasket. Can you check? What's the latest on this issue?
	() Thanks

24th March 2010, 14:47	#63
GoSlow BHPian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Noida Posts: 507 Thanked: 78 Times	AC fittment Hi Here are pics of the AC radiator fitted underneath my Gypsy. There are two electric fans above it as well. I struggled with the samde problem as yours for many years before taking this route and now everything works fine. Hope it helps. I am a member of NIOC which and have done lots of challenging OTRs. None of this setup has been an issue. Cheers Ankit Attached Thumbnails
	() Thanks

24th March 2010, 15:58	#64
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	Did you get this done from Sai in sector 16. This setup has AC sitting above the prop shaft. So I guess, unless you hit something so big that it actually damages the prop shaft, the AC is safe. Another way to protect it would be to fit a sheet with holes(aluminum sheet?) above the prop shaft which can act as a skid plate for the AC.
	() Thanks

24th March 2010, 19:08	#65
SPIKE ARRESTOR Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 2,854 Thanked: 1,532 Times	@Ankit still i would recommend you to fabricate something similar to a skid plate, covering the fin area, what do you say? Spike
	() Thanks

24th March 2010, 19:21	#66
harjeev Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 1,899 Thanked: 292 Times View My Garage	@Ankit Have you get the air con serviced and running??? Because last I remember it wasn't running. Further was first the condenser in front of the radiator. Additionally I remember at the Chandigarh OTR last year the aircon was not on and still your gypsy was overheating in 4x4 H/L and you had changed the radiator to get that sorted out. Any conclusions why was that?
	() Thanks

25th March 2010, 07:19	#68
DirtyDan Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dharamsala, H.P Posts: 2,075 Thanked: 1,565 Times	The man said that the HIGH SPEED heating problem STOPS when he turns off the a/c. When there is no a/c going, there is no problem. Therefore placement of components is not the issue; and air flow is ok. There is no problem at low speed or stopped in traffic. This is the greatest heat producing situation and his current configuration is handling this heat. So, what is there about the a/c compressor running at high rpm that causes over heating? You would not think the addtional load of the a/c would be enough to cause the problem since low speed testing shows it is ok. 1.) Does this compressor have clutches that are supposed kick down or off at certain situations? Are they doing so? 2.) If you put 6 people or a heavy load in this gypsy, will it overheat at high speed with the a/c turned off? This will test the effect of additional load on the heating/cooling system. 3.) I presume there is a separate belt running the compressor? Belt slippage e.g. to the water pump, bad belt tensioner might cause the problem. Last edited by DirtyDan : 25th March 2010 at 07:38.
	() Thanks

29th March 2010, 14:41	#70
VEA BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cochin Posts: 208 Thanked: 151 Times	At the risk of sounding an idiot, let me ask you one thing scooby. You are not running in 4wd low over 50 kmph. are you? Last edited by VEA : 29th March 2010 at 14:43. Reason: spell error
	() Thanks

29th March 2010, 22:45	#72
Sutripta Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Calcutta Posts: 4,668 Thanked: 6,217 Times	Hi, I might be sounding like a cracked record, but would still suggest you start from a known point + only one unknown at a time. In your case it means original radiator, fan etc + AC (without electric fan). Otherwise there's a high chance you'll be like a dog chasing its own tail. Are the fins of the condenser and radiator parallel to or perpendicular to each other? What is the gap between the two? Is there a gap between the electric fan and condenser? Is the electric motor a flat pancake one, or a normal pipe shaped one? Pictures please. Regards Sutripta
	() Thanks

30th March 2010, 04:13	#73
DirtyDan Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dharamsala, H.P Posts: 2,075 Thanked: 1,565 Times	Your water pump may be marginal, your test did not convince me that it is okay. Have a mechanic check the weep hole. One way to test it is to get 4-6 friends to sit in your gypsy while you drive with the a/c OFF at high speed. See if it heats up. Even if it is not the WP, this test may point to something else.
	() Thanks

30th March 2010, 06:03	#74
COUGAR BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 548 Thanked: 94 Times View My Garage	sorry to be the party pooper boys, but this doesnt sound like the AC is the problem here! I had a similar problem with my old M-800, also 5-speed MPFI: the damn thing would overheat so much that the coolant would be boiling and steam poured out of the bonnets! Problem was traced to a faulty fan/coolant pump that switched off at higher RPM's. My mech told me "common problem with MPFI 800". I think it could be something similar here. Last edited by COUGAR : 30th March 2010 at 06:05.
	() Thanks