[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Aroy

Anyway the Scorpio S4+ 4x4 is a much better passenger vehicle with a better ride.

Totally agree. If you are going to have only 1 vehicle then the S4+ 4x4 is a better all round car. Bolero is at best a 2nd vehicle, since you aren't going to go far with a 63bhp Tractor engine.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Totally agree. If you are going to have only 1 vehicle then the S4+ 4x4 is a better all round car. Bolero is at best a 2nd vehicle, since you aren't going to go far with a 63bhp Tractor engine.

That engine will excel in steep hill roads, where any way you cannot travel fast. I Have traveled in one in Mizoram, and it kept ahead of most vehicles on steep winding roads. The problem with modern CRDI engines is that they are tuned for high speed in contrast to low end torque needed for traversing steep hilly tracks.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Aroy

That engine will excel in steep hill roads, where any way you cannot travel fast.

The question is do you want to buy a vehicle which excels only on very steep roads but is a complete slouch 95% of the time. Frankly, the only reason Mahindra has that damn engine is to save money not to help us on steep inclines. I am almost certain that Sumo's and Scorpio's and Thar CRDe's are running fine in most parts of Mizoram too...

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The only reason Mahindra has that damn engine is to save money. I am almost certain that Sumos, Scorpios and Thar CRDes are running fine in most parts of Mizoram too.

Dear Tini (4*4 addict) - the original name of "that damn engine" is MD2350! It is older than old generation, it derives it's lineage from the B275 tractor of ITCI (International Tractor Company of India) dating back to the 60s and the 70s. It is heavy, it is slouchy, it vibrates and makes noise, but still customers want it. Why? The real reason is because it has become a brand, all over India! Customers will not buy the vehicle if that engine is not there in it. CL500MDI 91" and 101" wheelbase 2WD and 4WD soft top Jeeps made in Kandivli, equipped with derived versions of this engine, the MDI2500A, the MDI3000, the MDI3200, the MDI3200TC and now the M2DI, gave spectacular fuel economy figure of 17+ kmpl (particularly MDI2500A), when diesel used to cost less than 10 rupees a liter. It also ran to next to zero maintenance cost. Any mechanic below a tree could repair it, no dealer viability business case could ever match that low cost, even in those days! I have seen an engine with major sludge in its sump running merrily in a rural taxi, ferrying customers. Customers buy Bolero not because of the vehicle, but because it has "that damn engine"! That's the value of brand! Believe me, I happen to know! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Customers buy Bolero not because of the vehicle, but because it has "that damn engine"! That's the value of brand! Believe me, I happen to know! .

Behram Sir, Of-course you are correct. If I had a job that required me to wear a lungi to work the "damn engine" would be my first choice, but after driving modern engines, it is hard to live with this engine.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The question is do you want to buy a vehicle which excels only on very steep roads but is a complete slouch 95% of the time. Frankly, the only reason Mahindra has that damn engine is to save money not to help us on steep inclines. I am almost certain that Sumo's and Scorpio's and Thar CRDe's are running fine in most parts of Mizoram too...

It depends on what your requirements are. For highways in plains I would not touch vehicles with this engine, but on hills and off road it is a different matter.

Ask people who are driving in hilly terrain most of the time and they will want that low end torque coupled with rock solid reliability. High speed is of no importance as they cannot cross 60 anyway.

On this forum users have complained of the drivability of CRDI engines which require higher RPM to get that "Power" from the turbo. In contrast the older low HP DI engines move about merrily.

The sheer low end torque which enables Bolero to lug around with 15 passengers in any terrain is what sells in rural and hilly India.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Aroy

Ask people who are driving in hilly terrain most of the time and they will want that low end torque coupled with rock solid reliability. High speed is of no importance as they cannot cross 60 anyway.

I live in the hills, so don't really need to ask anyone. As a work vehicle, it will work fine, but as personal vehicle, I would pick the CRDe anyday...

If you travel with 11 people and climb steep inclines all the time, then maybe 19kgm Torque will suffice.

[BlackPearl]

I have a Bolero with this engine and I have driven to all the states between Kashmir to Kerala and Rajasthan to the North East with this slouch of a vehicle. I have always said that it is a pain to drive on the highways, but not touching it would be going too far in my opinion
Scorpio 4x4 might be a better buy, but at a price difference of over 4 lacs, Bolero LX 4x4 makes a very compelling buy for not so well-off people like us.

[shankar.balan]

4x4Addict.

The Mahindra Major also comes with a basic old diesel engine which doesn't develop much by way of BHP but in 4WD mode has good Torque. I don't know if this Major has the DI engine- does it?
I went up a really stony track in Coorg in one of those, with a load of people in it too. And just by banging it into 1st gear in 4WD low mode, it chugged and chugged and chugged up the hill. Of course one has to stomp on the clutch and rev a lot at the same time now and then, when coming to almost dead halts on the journey because of big stones, because otherwise it would simply stall and roll back.
But as a chugger of an engine that was pretty good indeed.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Aroy

I Have traveled in one in Mizoram, and it kept ahead of most vehicles on steep winding roads. The problem with modern CRDI engines is that they are tuned for high speed in contrast to low end torque needed for traversing steep hilly tracks.

In truth even in our old non-turbo MDI3200 (slouch of slouches) I've been able to keep ahead of most vehicles on steep winding roads. As noted by others, each engine has its sort of "groove". I whined and complained in my thread about the Scorpio mHawk's atrocious hill performance in Spiti (even worse than my drive in a Thar CRDe in Kinnaur), but having driven the 'Hawk so comfortably and briskly to Punjab and back last week, I see its place (though the turbo lag is still excessive). The question is, "Where/how do you do most of your driving???"

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The question is do you want to buy a vehicle which excels only on very steep roads but is a complete slouch 95% of the time. Frankly, the only reason Mahindra has that damn engine is to save money not to help us on steep inclines. I am almost certain that Sumo's and Scorpio's and Thar CRDe's are running fine in most parts of Mizoram too...

We're in the hills at 6,500+ft 95% of the time, and the ol' DI excels above most modern options here even on less than "very steep" roads. You will hardly find an mHawk Scorpio doing local taxi duty anywhere up here in HP or in Mizoram either. And Dirty Dan (Thar CRDe owner in Dharamsala) and I firmly agree that the CRDe engine too is seriously compromised for "real world" hill driving. Sumo Spacio/Gold, YES!! - Absolute universal favorites and best-sellers throughout the hills (my Mizo father-in-law drives one!) - and WHY??? Because the engine is a "complete slouch" low-rpm high-torque, low-maintenance DI in the same spirit as the M&M units!!!

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

...spectacular fuel economy figure of 17+ kmpl (particularly MDI2500A), when diesel used to cost less than 10 rupees a liter. It also ran to next to zero maintenance cost. Any mechanic below a tree could repair it... Customers buy Bolero not because of the vehicle, but because it has "that damn engine"! That's the value of brand! Believe me, I happen to know! . Best regards, Behram Dhabhar

Excellently put and so true, thank you Sir. Apparently the more recent M2DI Scorpio/Boleros are capable of over 20kmpl... and are sufficiently torquey, if one local friend's experience is any indication, to be comfortable on gradients / altitudes as extreme as Marsimek-La! So the engine, even in modern times, would still seem to have its place, even for private vehicles.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

If I had a job that required me to wear a lungi to work the "damn engine" would be my first choice, but after driving modern engines, it is hard to live with this engine.

Au Contraire, Monsieur! After driving the old DI, it is hard for me to live with modern engines... (and I only wear a lungi at home!). Though in all seriousness, 58bhp is painful at points, and my own "first choice", if FE was no issue, would be the old Scorpio 2.6 Turbo 4x4. Loads of low/midrange power and just fine on the highways besides - truly the best of both worlds (if you can digest 7-8kmpl in the hills).

Originally Posted by Aroy

Ask people who are driving in hilly terrain most of the time and they will want that low end torque coupled with rock solid reliability. On this forum users have complained of the drivability of CRDI engines...In contrast the older low HP DI engines move about merrily.

4x4 Addict's hills notwithstanding, and keeping the focus on simpler, more "practical" vehicles, YES!!!

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

I have a Bolero with this engine and I have driven to all the states between Kashmir to Kerala and Rajasthan to the North East with this slouch of a vehicle. ...at a price difference of over 4 lacs, Bolero LX 4x4 makes a very compelling buy for not so well-off people like us.

Black Pearl, you are living my dream... One day I'm going to swap in some 3.73:1 gearsets and see if this "damn [15-year old] engine" with its old 4-speed 'box will take me with the wife and two kids from here and across Nepal to Mizoram (I may well be totally deaf by the time we arrive, but it will be an epic journey regardless)! Some of us are gluttons for punishment, I suppose?

Indeed four lakhs is hardly pocket-change, especially considering that the cheaper option is clearly the superior performer for certain contexts. Getting back to the original consideration, the DI would've worked out just fine for the NGO who was consulting with me re: a new vehicle pick. They wanted something to locally ferry school students (as many as ten at a time), food supplies, gas cylinders, etc, with only an occasional trip to Shimla or Chandigarh... requirements for which the Bolero DI would clearly be superior over the Scorpio. The rough ride quality and noisy engine hardly matter when most of your driving is trips of under 10km.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed. BSIII considerations aside (still sold in much/most of rural India, isn't it - and the dealer is saying only the 4x4 version has ceased, not the other BSIII Bolero DI/Plus/LX models, so that can't be the sole reason), I wonder what will be filling the need for rugged, torquey rural people-carriers in the years to come? The 4x4 options seem to have disappeared entirely. The only suggestion the dealer had was to buy a Camper 4x4 (still available) and build custom seats/canopy/roof over the pickup bed... which would seem to seriously violate various safety norms. M&M earlier had the Savari, which made more sense (fitted fiberglass top and four rows of transverse seating). Kind of wished I'd rescued that one from the local junk yard when I could have - there are no survivors around here anymore and it could've been converted into an excellent expedition vehicle (plenty long enough to fit a full-length bed and as many supplies as needed).

-Eric

[JKDS]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Getting back to the original consideration, the DI would've worked out just fine for the NGO who was consulting with me re: a new vehicle pick. They wanted something to locally ferry school students (as many as ten at a time), food supplies, gas cylinders, etc, with only an occasional trip to Shimla or Chandigarh... requirements for which the Bolero DI would clearly be superior over the Scorpio. The rough ride quality and noisy engine hardly matter when most of your driving is trips of under 10km.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed. BSIII considerations aside (still sold in much/most of rural India, isn't it - and the dealer is saying only the 4x4 version has ceased, not the other BSIII Bolero DI/Plus/LX models, so that can't be the sole reason), I wonder what will be filling the need for rugged, torquey rural people-carriers in the years to come? The 4x4 options seem to have disappeared entirely. The only suggestion the dealer had was to buy a Camper 4x4 (still available) and build custom seats/canopy/roof over the pickup bed... which would seem to seriously violate various safety norms. M&M earlier had the Savari, which made more sense (fitted fiberglass top and four rows of transverse seating). Kind of wished I'd rescued that one from the local junk yard when I could have - there are no survivors around here anymore and it could've been converted into an excellent expedition vehicle (plenty long enough to fit a full-length bed and as many supplies as needed).

-Eric

Hi Eric! Sorry for the delayed response; been off the grid due to certain commitments. I think the salesman is un-equipped to handle the query, because I recall that the first salesman I spoke to didn't even know that this model existed. I guess it's also to do with monthly targets and incentives. I'll try and find out from the dealer I bought from in Kolkata whether only the LX 4x4 model has been discontinued (seems unlikely, as it is targeted at Government sales, as per disclosure from Mahindra on the website itself). Till then, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Best,

JKDS

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Sumo Spacio/Gold, YES!! - Absolute universal favorites and best-sellers throughout the hills (my Mizo father-in-law drives one!) - and WHY??? Because the engine is a "complete slouch" low-rpm high-torque, low-maintenance DI in the same spirit as the M&M units!!! Eric

Dear Eric - so, finally you have brought it out in the open, thanks (this is "customer-voice")! After 5 years, I still hope! After all, life is about never losing hope. By the way, two LOL smilies are definitely justified here!



Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - by the way, everybody would have forgotten, but I still remember and maintain that there "was" a certain MH01BB4972. Then there "still is" it's "cousin", a certain MH14CC2125. Search for MH01BB4972 on the forum to get the link, MH14CC2125 was never mentioned on the forum till now, so you will not get any links for it. Also, there is a certain "super-cousin", still standing somewhere in South India. HOPE is a superb human emotion!

[1100D]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Eric - so, finally you have brought it out in the open, thanks (this is "customer-voice")! After 5 years, I still hope! After all, life is about never losing hope. By the way, two LOL smilies are definitely justified here!



Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - by the way, everybody would have forgotten, but I still remember and maintain that there "was" a certain MH01BB4972. Then there "still is" it's "cousin", a certain MH14CC2125. Search for MH01BB4972 on the forum to get the link, MH14CC2125 was never mentioned on the forum till now, so you will not get any links for it. Also, there is a certain "super-cousin", still standing somewhere in South India. HOPE is a superb human emotion!

Dear Sir, Greetings. My knowledge says there was nothing special about "MH01BB4972", it was a regular 2wd, it was also up for sale on OLX and like every other self respecting Sumo Gold, has been decked up with bullbars chrome and all.

Having said that, I am also aware that there are super Sumo's in the company you work for. But probably there is no business case to put them into production.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Dear Sir, Greetings. 1. My knowledge says there was nothing special about "MH01BB4972", it was a regular 2wd, it was also up for sale on OLX and like every other self respecting Sumo Gold, has been decked up with bullbars chrome and all. 2. I am also aware that there are super Sumo's in the company you work for. But probably there is no business case to put them into production.

Dear Anirban - my reply is as follows:
1. Your opinion of MH01BB4972 is partially correct (yes it was 2WD) and partially incorrect (there was "something unique" in it, which I put there, so I know)! MH14CC2125 is it's cousin (with a different engine). MH01BB4972 was a bomb. MH14CC2125 is still a bomb, used daily by one of my very good friends!
2. You are correct, but the reason given by you is only "one of the reasons"! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[4x4addict]

All I can say is that I am glad there are so many of us who live in the hills and drive steep inclines with 11 people on board. If not for the 63 bhp MDI3200TC engine we would have to use a bullock cart. Since no modern deisel engine can climb steep slopes with 11 people on board.

But frankly of all the people who praise this engine, I know only 3 to 4 people who use it every day including your's truly. Armchair praise is not cheap and not inconvenient. Let us actually see how many people would buy this engine for a personal vehicle.