[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

You have to understand the camper is old. The only reason the camper is easy to repair is because it doesn't have much to go wrong in it. And because of that, you wont get more out of your car. Also, remember Mahindra parts quality is pathetic.

This input is very much appreciated. Since you have a lot of experience with these vehicles, what are some of the key failure points you have heard or seen over the years? Like for example, is there anything that cannot be covered by carrying a couple of boxes full of spares? Remember I'm talking about the standard bolero, not the one with IFS and Scorpio engine.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

@dhaunush. Your are recommending a V-Cross to someone who is totally enjoying an MM550. I think Camper will be like getting into a Rolls Royce. At this point VCross maybe too much refinement and modernity to manage the transition.

Better to go with Camper. The Camper Gold/Delux doesn't come with 4WD. The standard version comes with 4WD but without PS or AC and brilliant 63 bhp/19 KGM Torque Engine. Wish Mahindra would give free ear muffs as to mask the roar of the engine.

Haha you nailed it, man! I totally enjoy the MM550 whenever I come to India and drive it. Its a good break from what I drive everyday, and an excellent stress-buster since I get paid to develop vehicles that you or anyone in the general public won't see until 2021, and in some cases, ever .

As far as standard version coming without PS or AC, you're misinformed. PS comes from the factory and AC can be fitted as a dealer option with completely OEM parts for about 35-40k.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

No to the 2nd part of your first question, and yes to your 2nd question.... This is strictly for travel, no competition involved. Maintaining 100kph is good enough....reportedly commercial drivers are doing that today with up to 3 tons of load in the Camper!

Agreed on both V-Cross and Xenon , Anshuman. But the camper has a couple of things both of these vehicles lack, and that is 1. Simplicity and 2. A track record of reliability under the toughest conditions. Do you disagree?

It boils down to:

1.) Whether you live near a good Mahindra shop (Or two or three) that has good mechanics and access to parts.

And, NO!!! You are not going to carry 3 tons, 6000lbs, 2720kg in this Camper.
And, you might go 100kph in this thing...but I'm not riding with you. Beyond 70-80 things are going to get a little too exciting, handling-wise.

2.) Usage of the owner, what he needs, what he likes.

When you buy a vehicle you are also buying parts and service expertise...or lack thereof. If you don't take parts and service into account upon purchase, you will be up Sh@t Creek without a paddle.

[ananthkamath]

DirtyDan, I'm not yet certain if you're subjecting me to some sort of frat hazing ritual but if you are, a little background about me will hopefully assure I'm well past the point of needing that

1. I never said I'll carry 3 tons. I said I know of commercial vehicles being used that way. My intent was to say they are still surviving that kind of abuse so should fare just fine under normal loads but off-road usage (A fun fact for you from the OEM engg. world: chassis & component loads in offroad usage are roughly 2-3 times what the same vehicle would experience in paved highway usage, which is the underlying reason for me bringing that up).

2. Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying Mahindra have worse parts/service or availability of parts/service across the country than Isuzu or Tata?

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

DirtyDan, I'm not yet certain if you're subjecting me to some sort of frat hazing ritual but if you are, a little background about me will hopefully assure I'm well past the point of needing that

1. I never said I'll carry 3 tons. I said I know of commercial vehicles being used that way.

3 tons? Don't know how you would even load that much into it. And that's a frame breaking load. You should know that. One ton would be a strain. I have seen a number of Campers with their beds bent into grotesque shapes, e.g. looking like tippers half tipped. So somebody had tried heavy loads, for sure.

All I am saying is that Mahindra vehicles are great if you live right near a good dealer and/or mechanic that can keep you on the road. This seems to happen down south but not up here where I am.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

As far as standard version coming without PS or AC, you're misinformed. PS comes from the factory and AC can be fitted as a dealer option with completely OEM parts for about 35-40k.

Not for the 4x4 version. It comes standard for the 2WD version unless this change was made in the last 2 months or so.

[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Not for the 4x4 version. It comes standard for the 2WD version unless this change was made in the last 2 months or so.

Don't know when it was made but put plainly the 4wd comes with PS and no AC from the factory. I saw a brand new one in Mangalore with my own 2 eyes, in addition to the price/spec list at the dealer..

Anyway, back to the info I need. A lot of info in this thread is just too old to be relevant in 2017. From searching other threads, I have a few answers to my questions below but not all. I've edited the original questions and would appreciate answers to these from people who have this knowledge first-hand.

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

Here are the things I would like your input on:

1) Wheels - I would like to retain OEM steel wheels from either Mahindra or Tata (or a 3rd option I dont know of yet). I think the stock size is 6J x 15. Which other sizes are available brand-new from either Tata or Mahindra dealers for this PCD and hub bore?
EDIT: To add to this, are the 16" army MM550 wheels available brand new anywhere? I understand these are heavier duty than the standard Mahindra steel wheels. I believe there are 2 styles that were made.
Old

New



2) Tires - A related question to (1) obviously, but I believe the Yoko Geolandar AT-G015 is the best all-terrain tire available in India. However, they don't appear to have good options for 31"+ diameter in narrow widths (i.e. < 245). Which other options should I consider keeping the constraint of OEM wheels in mind?
EDIT: I've all but zeroed in on 245/70-16 111H G015 over the 31x10.5-15 due to lack of OE wheel options for 8Jx15. Any other alternative suggestions are welcome...

3) Mild suspension lift - I would like 2" but not really more than that. What are the proven options for this in India?
EDIT: Let me narrow this down by asking, any known options of replacement leaf springs with increased ride height? Not interested in doing any recambering jugaad on a safety-critical part.

4) Rear Diff lock - Does the Eaton product fit the Camper? Is the Lamda product proven and reliable enough for a remote-area vehicle?

5) Front Diff lock - What options are available for a front diff lock? Anyone using one?
EDIT: Would appreciate answers to the above questions.

[BlackPearl]

Since so much discussion is going on regarding the 4WD Camper, wanted to post a pic of this privately registered Camper that I saw in Sikkim. It looked absolutely stunning.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

This input is very much appreciated. Since you have a lot of experience with these vehicles, what are some of the key failure points you have heard or seen over the years? Like for example, is there anything that cannot be covered by carrying a couple of boxes full of spares?

I think I've been in your shoes sometime back. Apart from competitions, where breakdown and repair is inevitable, for travel or expeditions, I would choose a vehicle which doesn't break down in the first place. Meaning, crank it and drive. Fill it, shut it, forget it. An old Mahindra is definitely not that.

As for the camper, yes, you can fix it with a proper tool kit in the back. But, again, lot of things to go wrong. All Mahindra parts, are substandard. Like the belts, hoses, etc..

That said, if you buy a newer vehicle than the Camper, what do you expect to go wrong in it in your kind of expedition?

I totally enjoy the MM550 whenever I come to India and drive it.

Just like going camping in a tent, instead of a hotel room, If you "want" the old jeep experience, then nothing can beat the Camper in the market now.

EDIT: To add to this, are the 16" army MM550 wheels available brand new anywhere? I understand these are heavier duty than the standard Mahindra steel wheels. I believe there are 2 styles that were made.

The two types have different PCD. You might get the new one with 160PCD in the market. Old one with 139.x PCD you wont. But, anyhow, both types are very durable and used ones wont matter.

3) Mild suspension lift - I would like 2" but not really more than that. What are the proven options for this in India?

Why do you want the lift? More ground clearance? Better Clearance for tyres to articulate? Or just for the stance?

4) Rear Diff lock - Does the Eaton product fit the Camper? Is the Lamda product proven and reliable enough for a remote-area vehicle?

Lamda is reliable. 40k for rear and another 40k for front.

5) Front Diff lock - What options are available for a front diff lock? Anyone using one

Lambda again. (For solid axle, Dana 44 mahindra vehicles)

[ananthkamath]

Sorry, got busy with work and couldn't respond in a detailed enough way.

First, thanks @dhanushs for answering some of my questions. I was a bit taken-aback by most of the responses I got to my very specific Bolero Camper related questions: Eg. choose a more modern vehicle, choose a more comfortable vehicle etc. But then, I realized I didn't do a good job of explaining the reasons for my choice at all. Hopefully after they read the below, I will get more people to help me with my questions!

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Apart from competitions, where breakdown and repair is inevitable, for travel or expeditions, I would choose a vehicle which doesn't break down in the first place. Meaning, crank it and drive. Fill it, shut it, forget it.

I agree 100%. However, what I'm hearing from you is that the Camper is not a good choice because

1. Its an old design.
2. Its got poor parts quality (you haven't elaborated on actual failures, except to say bad hoses and belts).
3. Its got both lots of things and not many things to go wrong in it

Originally Posted by dhanushs

As for the camper, yes, you can fix it with a proper tool kit in the back. But, again, lot of things to go wrong. All Mahindra parts, are substandard. Like the belts, hoses, etc..

Originally Posted by dhanushs

You have to understand the camper is old. The only reason the camper is easy to repair is because it doesn't have much to go wrong in it.

Based on what I have read, seen and heard, I am not convinced the Camper is worse off than either the Xenon or Isuzu V-Cross in terms of reliability or parts quality. What I DO know, is that it has a number of very objective and well-supported subjective advantages over these two, which I will elaborate as follows:

If I had unlimited funds to devote to this project, which vehicle would I choose? If I follow the example of 95% of the people who have completed serious around-the-world or really arduous expeditions, it is either the Toyota 70-series Land Cruiser Double Cab, or the Land Rover Defender High Capacity pickup. They are the Gold Standard, and according to a lot of people, there is nothing better. I tend to agree.

In broad terms and rough order of importance, lets see what the Bolero Camper has in common with the LC70 and LR Defender, and how it compares to Xenon & V-Cross:

1. 1-ton total payload capacity, rated by the manufacturer. By contrast, V-Cross is rated for 265kg cargo + 5 occupants = 650kg total payload. Sure, the Australian D-Max Crew Cab will carry 1 ton, but do you know what changes Isuzu made to take advantage of lower payload? I don't! Are you all positive it's just the suspension? I'm not! I don't like big uncertainties especially after paying nearly 2 times the price of the next best choice. While Xenon payload is also 1-ton, its kerb weight is 250kg more for no good reason - this can matter a lot in soft ground conditions.

2. True range of 750+ km under expedition conditions - It should be obvious why you need this. I have found the "combined cycle" figures to be the most accurate representation. While the Camper's fuel tank size pales in comparison (57L vs 75L of Defender and 130L of LC70), the vastly superior fuel economy makes up a lot for it. Also, with the Bolero fuel tank being made of metal instead of plastic, I trust it will be quite easy and cheap to increase its capacity. V-Cross and Xenon both have plastic tanks and also quite a bit worse fuel economy which severely limits their range.

3. High offroad credentials - Approach and departure angles, crawl ratio, turning radius, ground clearance, and the subjective reputation (which matters a lot to me) compare favorably. The small size of the Bolero can mean the difference between passing straight through, or finding a detour sometimes, I'm sure you know that already. I am not under any illusion that a Bolero can compete with a LC or Defender, having actually driven both of these off-road, but IMO it is not too far behind in the type of terrain I expect to see.

4. "Old" but proven platform - All of these vehicles were designed in the late-70s to early 80s, and their basic design is much much older than that. They have all seen a lot of engineering development specific to their intended usage scenarios, i.e. load carrying over the worst terrain. They seem archaic compared to the competition, yet they are highly desired today in their respective markets, especially by commercial and fleet owners who value ruggedness, maximum up-time, and low cost of ownership over everything else. A good example of this is how much the commercial Bolero pickup outsells the Tata 207, there are good reasons for this.

5. Less is More philosophy - If I don't have something to start with, I will prepare accordingly for the lack of it. Its funny you mentioned A/c before, since neither LC70 nor LR Defender come with it! There are other ways to get the advantage of A/c without the added load on the engine & electrical system (big deal), and added complexity (not such a big deal). Similarly, you could group most added features in the Xenon or V-Cross, like slightly better ride comfort (independent front suspension), convenience (A/c, keyless entry, power seats/windows/ORVM, shift-on-the-fly 4WD), as frills that can go wrong, and you simply don't need in the first place. I don't group safety features like ABS and airbags into this, if the Camper offered those as options, I would be the first person to take it.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

That said, if you buy a newer vehicle than the Camper, what do you expect to go wrong in it in your kind of expedition?

Let me put it this way. Imagine a scenario in a remote area, several hundred miles from civilization, in a foreign country. If a drive belt or hose fails, I can grab a spare and maybe some coolant/water from the back and fix it in an hour or so. If the engine ECU on the Bolero goes into limp-mode, I can remove the glovebox and switch it out in about 2 minutes, or at least I can try replacing the sensors 1-by-1. If a shift-on-the-fly transfer case on the Xenon/Isuzu has a fault and engine goes into limp-home mode, what do I do? If a keyless entry system faults out and doesn't let me into the vehicle or immobilizes the engine, what do I do? If bad fuel plugs up the injectors and disables the engine (a much higher chance of this happening on the Xenon or Isuzu), what do I do? If an auto-locking front hub on the Isuzu/Xenon fails to engage or disengage, what then?

Note that none of the above are unlikely scenarios and these exact issues have been reported on this forum and others. To my knowledge none of these show-stoppers happen on the Bolero because it doesn't have these "features" (sure, other Mahindra models with these features present have had these issues)!

Anyway, the point of this is to explain the rationale behind my choice, not to sound argumentative in any way. Ultimately it also comes down to cost. We are planning to take multiple vehicles (2-3) and the cost of Carnets etc will become prohibitive since these are proportional to the original on-road price.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Why do you want the lift? More ground clearance? Better Clearance for tyres to articulate? Or just for the stance?

It is for two reasons. One is ramp breakover angle, which is low on the Camper compared to Thar or other off-roaders due to its 119" wheelbase. The second is ground clearance @ full load should not be less than 200mm in any case. I am not aware of whether the quoted 185mm is at GVW or kerb.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

The second is ground clearance @ full load should not be less than 200mm in any case. I am not aware of whether the quoted 185mm is at GVW or kerb.

I read the Mahindra specs on this camper on their web page. There may be some mistakes, Mahindra web sites are often amateurish and wrong. Last time I knew the GC on the empty 4x4 Camper is 230mm, not 185mm. This sounds great until you consider the length of the wheelbase. It's still possible to hang it high in the middle because of that. If you look at one close up, you will see that it sits high.

I like the vehicle. I might consider it but Himachal only allows commercial registration on it now, if you can purchase it at all. Pollution restrictions in some places. Plus, dealing with Mahindra is a pain in the...

I have heard nothing but good reports on the reliability of the Isuzu. As you probably know, Isuzu is a big supplier of diesels to General Motors. Isuzu has very few agencies selling V-Cross in India, however.

They named it "Camper". I wonder if they originally thought it might be a life style vehicle.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

the plan is to get a brand-new Camper 4x4 so we can carry more people and their stuff on longer overland journeys, while also doubling as a daily use vehicle for both family and goods-carrying.

Why not the Bolero Plus with 4WD? The loading area is covered and lockable. Same engine, same chassis, same positives, same negatives but you get the metal shell behind.

Heavier, but with that engine you hardly need to bother. Puttering around at 80-90 kmph is a given.

Nothing against the Camper. The only thing in its favor will be achieved by adding a sunroof to the rear of the Bolero+. LOL. The SUV guys will love it.

I can share those reasons if anyone wants to go into that.

I am biased to the Bolero though. I owned one. So.

With this in mind, I would very much appreciate the experienced input of the great folks here on upgrading off-road capability of this vehicle. I know the Camper shares a lot in common with the standard Bolero, but not really knowledgeable on field-proven options available.

Old hand here. Drove a Classic and Bolero for ages. Now married and drive a sedan. Don't visit these woods (team-BHP) lately, they changed the decor.

Interesting thread (this) someone send me. Sounds and smells like old times.

Drove a Bolero across the country over 2 lakh kms in 6 years. So know a bit of this thing. Mind you the old one though - Peugeot Legacy IDI Engine.

Here are the things I would like your input on:

1) Wheels - I would like to retain OEM steel wheels from either Mahindra

Stick to OEM and go slightly oversize. Look for grip and good quality rubber. That's it. Somewhere in a middle of nowhere when I bend a steel rim on the bolero, I bought one from the puncture guy for INR 150.00. Didn't mess the looks a bit.

2) Tires

Heard the geolanders work great. I used bridgestones with tube. Worked great for 50k kms and at worst 4-5 punctures I can recall.

But road infra from back in 2002/2008 to now has hugely improved across India. So I think you should be good without being too worried about whats available today.

3) Mild suspension lift - I would like 2"

Unnecessary. Go bigger profile at best. That thing is a brick on stilts. You don't want to raise it higher for fast expressways, with absolute idiots cutting you off.

Anything tougher in terms of terrain get a winch and learn how to use it. Trust me ground clearance is least of your problems while over landing. You can always go around it.

Is the Lamda product proven and reliable enough for a remote-area vehicle?

Lambda's work well. Heard there are fakes out there too.

5) Front Diff lock - What options are available for a front diff lock? Anyone using one?

What with the steering et all. Difficult. Heard of Lockright, they made something for the Dana44 19 spline. If I recall clearly.

6) Bumper

Check the law. Sooner then later in one of the states you will be flagged down. Keep stock and check for options for the winch.

[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Why not the Bolero Plus with 4WD? The loading area is covered and lockable. Same engine, same chassis, same positives, same negatives but you get the metal shell behind.

Heavier, but with that engine you hardly need to bother. Puttering around at 80-90 kmph is a given.

Nothing against the Camper. The only thing in its favor will be achieved by adding a sunroof to the rear of the Bolero+. LOL. The SUV guys will love it.

Thank you for your comments and input.

If you read post 73 of this thread, you'll notice I said my first choice was the Bolero+. Do you have reliable info that it is still available in 4WD? I spoke with 2 dealers who confirmed it's not. They may be wrong... I'd switch to the Bolero+ in a heartbeat for at least 1 of the 2-3 vehicles we need.

As far as not needing ground clearance, the Bolero is already at a disadvantage if you go by the spec sheet (185mm). The key issue is ramp breakover angle and under-axle clearance, not approach/departure. If it is 230mm as DirtyDan says, then sure, I agree with you.

In my experience, "going around it" is not always an option, and ground clearance is often the first thing you need, not 4WD. I am well versed with the problems faced on backcountry overland routes. A winch seems like a good solution at first but we have done well without it for the past 5 years and over 25k miles in trips across 3 continents. It just adds weight, cost and isn't really useful in all situations.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

If you read post 73 of this thread, you'll notice I said my first choice was the Bolero+. Do you have reliable info that it is still available in 4WD? I spoke with 2 dealers who confirmed it's not. They may be wrong... I'd switch to the Bolero+ in a heartbeat for at least 1 of the 2-3 vehicles we need.

We had folks from Mahindra & Mahindra here. Try PMing one Vinod Nookla, that's like the horse's mouth. Not sure where those guys are up now though.

I did see one (Bolero+) back in Goa at the dealer in September last year. i am sure its still available. Where are you based. Tier 1 cities wont get it.

As far as not needing ground clearance, the Bolero is already at a disadvantage if you go by the spec sheet (185mm). The key issue is ramp breakover angle and under-axle clearance, not approach/departure. If it is 230mm as DirtyDan says, then sure, I agree with you.

Mahindra always mentions ground clearance and not axle ground clearance. I always read Mahindra's ground clearance as axle clearance. Because ARAI
and their rule book always mentions ground clearance as the distance between the lowest point of the vehicle to the ground. I take Mahindra measures it at the axle - Logically. BD Sir could.

With the 185 mm axle clearance, I am thinking you are good. Unless you can give me examples from your trips where the 2 inch lift could have helped.

To be honest I never really measured the axle clearance. I should have.

In my experience, "going around it" is not always an option, and ground clearance is often the first thing you need, not 4WD. I am well versed with the problems faced on backcountry overland routes. A winch seems like a good solution at first but we have done well without it for the past 5 years and over 25k miles in trips across 3 continents. It just adds weight, cost and isn't really useful in all situations.

What sort of over-landing are you planning? And where? Moving across continents? Or climbing up the Himalayas? Or Rainforest or Camel Trophy League? With that 2 Ton brick and its engine, the ground clearance is least of your concerns to get over over-sized obstacles. Stock Suspension articulation which is a joke and the massive rear overhang, anything more then speed breakers and bad/to very bad roads you are not getting too far. You will need assistance (Winch/Fellow Vehicle) to pull you out of sticky situations.

Examples of Campers/Maxi trucks in the hills plying goods is a bad one. Those are so severely abused with colossal amounts of jugaad that its depressing. You are not going to do that to your machine.

Another option: The Gurkha? Heard about it? Comes in fancy colors and a long wheelbase now. No clue how it matches to the old. You should give it a look.

[ananthkamath]

Thanks for the tip on Vinod...I'll send him a note. I live in Detroit but this project will be run from the Mangalore area.

On the one hand you say GC isn't an issue, on the other you say rear overhang and articulation are. How do you propose one should fix those without increasing GC? The departure angle on the Camper/Bolero+ isn't terrible, I measured about 27 degrees if you move the spare tire and 23 if you don't. The approach angle is about 39 degrees. The real issue is ramp breakover angle due to the 119" wheelbase, and there's no way to get around that other than a lift.

The situations where there is no substitute for ground clearance are many but a couple of examples:
- Deep sand, grounding the axle results in large loss of momentum and makes the engine work harder than it has to.
- Crossing gulleys or ditches, rock crawling - Grounding front, middle or rear can damage body parts, exhaust, underbody spare tire. unnecessarily

RFC, Camel Trophy, Dakar etc is not "overlanding", they are competitions and they have support vehicles, sponsors and lots of money behind each team. We are a small group of ordinary guys with no backup or support vehicles other than the ones we take. There is no helicopter to bring us bandaids and some water if we get injured, we are on our own.

The Gurkha looks great on paper, but several unknowns. I wish it had a better track record. The IFS and the multi-link rear suspension concern me a bit. From a cursory look it does not seem like it was designed for off-road use.

[Spitfire]

Where exactly are you thinking of over landing? In India? If yes, where?
When I mentioned Camel Trophy I did not mean the support but the terrain.

Trust me if you really want to overland in India you can never be prepared. The country has such harsh and dangerous terrain its mind boggling. And I have seen some "tough" drives around the world.

That begs the question: Are you over-landing with heavy offroading as taken? Marked routes and stuff? Overlanding is not necessarily off-roading or the types you need some specialized vehicle. You can also walk after the vehicle can go no further. We used to carry our tents and mugs and trek 20-25 kms to get to a few locations on the way. And these could be random far away spots, we observed from a distance and had no clue how to get there, other then pointing towards it and driving/hiking there. The going around bit, I talked about earlier.

I don't want my vehicle to conquer all terrain and spend hours extracting it from places it was not capable of. I will walk or go around. There's nothing to prove on such trips.

Then there is the new age overlanding, which is absolute fun too with good friends, great location and FOOD.

Its something like Tejas and friends are doing elsewhere (there is a nice Pajero thread in this section), then the Bolero+ with no mods is good enough.

The point (about GC earlier) being, increasing only the GC, with all other parameters being constant on that vehicle and expecting it to conquer all terrain (remote/out of reach) in India is to put it lightly "courageous". With no support vehicle or equipment, it's medal worthy bravery. Hats off if you can pull it off in that vehicle. Nothing's impossible. I once found a Maruti Van where a 6x6 could have struggled. They apparently picked it up and carried it across. So that's no measure of the preparedness.

With my Bolero (IDI) with no mods, I was not too confident. But I did make it to some really remote places in India. No backup vehicle, it was always - lets go around or go somewhere else. There was no destination in mind, so that helped.

Other option is instead of one big vehicle why not 2 Gypsies? Unless there is only one driver? That thing is awesome. And it can be picked and placed around like l'Omni.

Take a stock well maintained vehicle (with 4WD at the least) and be on your way. Whatever you do, trust me you will never be prepared enough. Get out and drive.

Folks overland in buses too. We had lot of these foreigners coming to Goa in the late 80's and early 90's in Unimogs and VW bugs to everything in between. I want to do that really, get a 4x4 Tempo Traveller (if it exists) or something similar. Make it a live-able vehicle and overland in it. Soon.